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22 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I see lots of ad hominem. Very little in the way of compelling science regarding hormonal drug therapy applied to young adolescents. 

You ignore, and so will I. Enjoy the company of immortal, beeper, Johnny sack, and the rest of those types. I’ve had enough of your impervious sanctimonious drivel. Trans kids have their issues to deal with and we trans adults have ours. Putting up with your faux intellectualism nonsense would only prove my insanity to your types. You’re one of the last hold outs you aren’t capable here so enjoy your corner of the site, I can’t say I’ll never respond to you again but I can say it will be infrequent at most. c'est la vie.

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2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Lol, how did “shutting down our society and economy” (a thing that never actually happened) kill old people? The whole purpose of taking measures to prevent the spread of Covid was to save old people. It was your party openly saying they should die, you fucking moron.

That and Trump calling it a hoax, and lying to the public about it, sowing misinformation about it, never wearing a mask (except in occasional coerced circumstances), demonizing Dr. Anthony Fauci because he had the nerve to contradict Trump’s reality tv bullshit approach to his presidency with the best available medical advice, etc. Trump’s mishandling of the response unquestionably led to innumerable preventable deaths, likely in the hundreds of thousands. It’s also why vaccination rates are lower in red states than in blue states and why the virus kills more Republican voters than anyone else. The party of stupid is really living up to their nickname on that one. 

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3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

No. She is consistent in stating that a transgender child is at high risk for suicide, and that risk is magnified if the parents aren’t supportive of their identification. They are also at a high risk for sexual and physical abuse, substance dependence, and homelessness, oftentimes because of their parents’ response. 

 

You seem to think parenting has something to do with sexual orientation and gender identity. It doesn’t. 
 

You should read the accounts of parents who have lived the experience. Many started out thinking as you and come to the realization their child is what they say they are. Many were staunchly conservative and active in their churches. This isn’t a child playing dress up and throwing a fit when they don’t get their way

Where did I suggest parents decide their children’s gender or sexuality? My issue is with the treatments at an early age, that’s a hard no for me. I’d rather them hate me than be responsible for any physical deformation or castration. 

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:
Edited by Poe It Up
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12 minutes ago, troph said:

You ignore, and so will I. Enjoy the company of immortal, beeper, Johnny sack, and the rest of those types. I’ve had enough of your impervious sanctimonious drivel. Trans kids have their issues to deal with and we trans adults have ours. Putting up with your faux intellectualism nonsense would only prove my insanity to your types. You’re one of the last hold outs you aren’t capable here so enjoy your corner of the site, I can’t say I’ll never respond to you again but I can say it will be infrequent at most. c'est la vie.

I am truly sorry to hear that. Maybe I’ll catch you out on the patio at hops and thyme and we can make up IRL. I understand that you feel very passionately on this topic. I get it. Your last couple posts are nothing but ad hominem attacks. I have lodged no such against you. But the passion, cest la vie. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

Where did I suggest parents decide their children’s gender or sexuality? My issue is with the treatments at an early age, that’s a hard no for me. I’d rather them hate me than be responsible for any physical deformation or castration. 

Where did I suggest parents decide their children’s gender or sexuality? My issue is with the treatments at an early age, that’s a hard no for me. I’d rather them hate me than be responsible for any physical deformation or castration. 

This is not a serious post in any way. 

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31 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

"Everyone I don't like is triplehorn" is Ana's new "Russia Russia Russia" .....since he can't use that anymore 

I can’t help it if there are people on this thread regurgitating, in some cases word for word, the same types of arguments triplehorn was making against me when he was going unhinged with his HCQ promotion. That some posters here don’t pause and recognize the similarities before they hit submit is frankly a bit surprising to me.

 

Edited by Anastasis
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27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am truly sorry to hear that. Maybe I’ll catch you out on the patio at hops and thyme and we can make up IRL. I understand that you feel very passionately on this topic. I get it. Your last couple posts are nothing but ad hominem attacks. I have lodged no such against you. But the passion, cest la vie. 
 

 

actually all this is bullshit and you've been nothing but a colossal asshole on this thread for....reasons i guess. 

what are you even arguing here?

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5 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

actually all this is bullshit and you've been nothing but a colossal asshole on this thread for....reasons i guess. 

what are you even arguing here?

Maybe go back to the post where someone linked the NEJM article and start reading. I am sure that you can follow my participation in the discussion Hayden. Jesus. 

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12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Hell, most adolescents don't know up from shootem about anything relating to sexuality, including their own.  So, yeah, some kids that pronounce themselves bi or pan or nonbinary or whatever are going to end up wrong and are just doing it for some sort of attention.  But this is a real and serious problem for some who have suffered in the past because closed-minded people refused to accept it.

I don’t know shit about shit wrt young kids and their sexuality, but I know my oldest (5th grade) has a girl in her class that for last 2 years (4/5) who tells them she is a lesbian.   Seems young to me to of figured that out with any certainty, but I’m certainly not an expert.  I recall 2-3 girls coming out right after high school.  I don’t recall a (out) single gay man thru HS and one guy came out (or I heard of it) like 10+ years later.  I think that’s got a lot more to due with social acceptance than there being more gays due to social media or whatever lol is upthread. 

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32 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Sexuality and gender are spectrums, and why that's so hard for so many otherwise well educated people to wrap their heads around is beyond me.

Despite the flaws in his study, Dr. Kinsey described a scale from 1-10 between being completely heterosexual and completely homosexual. We’ve known about that for a long time. We’ve seen it demonstrated by people’s behavior. I’ve had gay friends tell me stories about how straight guys, happily married with children, would occasionally cruise the gay bars for a hookup. It didn’t mean they were secretly gay and living a lie. They were just satisfying an urge. Biology is messy, it’s not easily cut and dried. 

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I can’t help it if there are people on this thread regurgitating, in some cases word for word, the same types of arguments triplehorn was making against me when he was going unhinged with his HCQ promotion. That some posters here don’t pause and recognize the similarities before they hit submit is frankly a bit surprising to me.

 

Again you are wrong

 

”there are well designed, properly powered studies showing that ivermectin is not effective against covid”

 

is not the same argument as

 

“there are no well designed properly powered studies showing puberty blockers and exogenous hormone therapy are effective for gender dysmorphia”

 

 

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Prospective study of gender affirming hormone therapy 12-20 yo cohort

 

From last month’s NEJM 

Quote

RESULTS

A total of 315 transgender and nonbinary participants 12 to 20 years of age (mean [±SD], 16±1.9) were enrolled in the study. A total of 190 participants (60.3%) were transmasculine (i.e., persons designated female at birth who identify along the masculine spectrum), 185 (58.7%) were non-Latinx or non-Latine White, and 25 (7.9%) had received previous pubertal suppression treatment. During the study period, appearance congruence, positive affect, and life satisfaction increased, and depression and anxiety symptoms decreased. Increases in appearance congruence were associated with concurrent increases in positive affect and life satisfaction and decreases in depression and anxiety symptoms. The most common adverse event was suicidal ideation (in 11 participants [3.5%]); death by suicide occurred in 2 participants.

Would be interesting to know suicide rate of these patients compared to untreated cohort. If anyone has link to full article see if it’s in the discussion 

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You should go back and read some of the exchanges on the topic in the Covid thread. 

No need. You should think about the many examples of established medical treatment that don’t have high level evidence backing them 

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11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Prospective study of gender affirming hormone therapy 12-20 yo cohort

 

From last month’s NEJM 

Would be interesting to know suicide rate of these patients compared to untreated cohort. If anyone has link to full article see if it’s in the discussion 

Raw suicide rate among the participants in that study is 635 per 100k. Background suicide rate in 10-24 age cohort is 10.5 per 100k per cdc. No real conclusion can be drawn because it’s a small n issue and the confidence interval would be hopelessly wide. But if you are just comparing the event rate point estimates, that is an extremely high suicide rate among the individuals in that study receiving hormone treatment. 

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5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

What does that have to do with untreated gender dysmorphia cohort?

I don’t have that number handy, but you can apply any realistic multiple of the risk you want and it’s not going to get close to 635. 
 

And yes, it would have been nice to have a suitable control group to facilitate such comparisons. 

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14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

These. Everything else is bullshit hysteria, used as a flimsy cover to turn one’s feelings of “gays and trannies are icky” into law.

I have high school friends (late 80s/early 90s) who have tried to claim that there "weren't any gays at our school, but now there are gays at all the schools?" even though there were literally gay kids at our school, and they knew they were gay. Most of them did not openly come out as gay until may years later precisely because of the harassment they had received in school, but most of us knew.

14 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I have a deep concern that so many kids are essentially being experimented with these days. 

13 hours ago, Captainant said:

You're like two steps away from qanon conspiracy shit man, keep going! You already live in Dallas so I'm sure your neighbor can fill in the rest of the blanks on how scientists are really just looking to experiment on children. 

I have a qanon sister-in-law who has rambled about kids being trafficked, kids being experimented on, etc., but she can't/won't find actual (relevant) proof to back up anything she says - it's all just stupid unsourced shit on the internet, or things that happen in other countries.  Or she tells us to "do your own research".

She's also the one person in the family that nobody will trust their kids with - she's gotten angry and yelled about her nieces and nephews getting vaccinated.  Her siblings, as well as myself, have told her to her face we would never trust our kids with her when she's offered to babysit, etc.  She is literally the person we believe would kidnap our kids, in the guise of "protecting them" because we get them regular checkups at the doctors, vaccinations, etc. and it makes her angry.

Even though her mom, her dad, and her stepmom were all medical professionals for decades, she doesn't trust anything they say.

Her latest crusade is trying to tell people that the rainbow pride flag is secretly the flag of Satan, amongst other things.

She doesn't come up with this shit on her own - most of what she pushes, a quick internet search reveals it's the latest talking point being pushed by various shady groups.

Edited by atomheartbevo
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1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

I have high school friends (late 80s/early 90s) who have tried to claim that there "weren't any gays at our school, but now there are gays at all the schools?" even though there were literally gay kids at our school, and they knew they were gay. Most of them did not openly come out as gay until may years later precisely because of the harassment they had received in school, but most of us knew.

I have a qanon sister-in-law who has rambled about kids being trafficked, kids being experimented on, etc., but she can't/won't find actual (relevant) proof to back up anything she says - it's all just stupid unsourced shit on the internet, or things that happen in other countries.  Or she tells us to "do your own research".

She's also the one person in the family that nobody will trust their kids with - she's gotten angry and yelled about her nieces and nephews getting vaccinated.  Her siblings, as well as myself, have told her to her face we would never trust our kids with her when she's offered to babysit, etc.  She is literally the person we believe would kidnap our kids, in the guise of "protecting them" because we get them regular checkups at the doctors, vaccinations, etc. and it makes her angry.

Even though her mom, her dad, and her stepmom were all medical professionals for decades, she doesn't trust anything they say.

Her latest crusade is trying to tell people that the rainbow pride flag is secretly the flag of Satan, amongst other things.

I can unequivocally confirm we are all satanic zombies sent here to take your children and experiment on them. We have to hide it though otherwise we would be killed in the street. So we concocted an elaborate scheme to get away with it. 
 

Area 51 Aliens GIF by Sky HISTORY UK

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4 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

My issue is with the treatments at an early age, that’s a hard no for me

If you had an eight year old son that came to you and said “daddy I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I really believe I’m a girl” how would you respond? 
 

now take the same child at 11 after 3 years of counseling and therapy who says “daddy I’m more convinced than ever I’m a girl”. How do you respond?

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15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

If you had an eight year old son that came to you and said “daddy I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I really believe I’m a girl” how would you respond? 
 

now take the same child at 11 after 3 years of counseling and therapy who says “daddy I’m more convinced than ever I’m a girl”. How do you respond?

He throws him down a well. 

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This whole “grooming” thing is just silly. It presupposes gender and sexual orientation are somehow malleable in adolescents which flies in the face of objective data. 
 

As far as the idea of “sexualizing” this age group:

from 6 yo to 11-12 I was hauling ass home on my bike in time to catch

image.gif.5cd5c0565eb140f4dd547077df0a2d32.gif


image.gif.115cd90b7391967c85592eebbd75f744.gif

and

image.gif.3c69b0b1200f6990894a9f9828695b8d.gif
 

 

 

Where was the outcry against sexualizing our youth?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

If you had an eight year old son that came to you and said “daddy I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I really believe I’m a girl” how would you respond? 
 

now take the same child at 11 after 3 years of counseling and therapy who says “daddy I’m more convinced than ever I’m a girl”. How do you respond?

I can’t imagine I’d be very surprised at that point. It’s pretty easy to tell early on by the toys they play with and type of activities they enjoy. For example, my sons are all about trucks and action figures, whereas my daughter is all about babies and playing dress up. 
 

I’d say that I love them and I would thank them for gathering up the courage to talk to us. I’d have no issue with sending them to counseling, it’s seems the appropriate thing to do. 

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4 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

 It’s pretty easy to tell early on by the toys they play with and type of activities they enjoy. For example, my sons are all about trucks and action figures, whereas my daughter is all about babies and playing dress up. 
 

Imagine believing this in tyool 2023.

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35 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

from 6 yo to 11-12 I was hauling ass home on my bike in time to catch

image.gif.5cd5c0565eb140f4dd547077df0a2d32.gif

I just happened to post about this in the Movies and TV forum. Did you know Debra Winger played Wonder Woman’s little sister? It was just the second thing she’d ever been in.

57161C0B-02CE-4C5C-87AD-C4670B5DCC52.thumb.png.3a34fc15b2c320c20f44560780c3cbd3.png

2287B9AB-F906-4625-AF92-B38C9720A91E.png.ec0c845c8659a1f5581a5047b7e4e95a.png

A87B5221-2DE3-4F6F-A903-FD066944E2FD.thumb.png.098fb0db00c4b497f812956602206ff2.png

That’s Carolyn Jones playing their mother Queen Hippolyta. I’m sure you remember her.

C6B68A47-CBA7-450F-B1D4-CC46423A1BA2.png

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12 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I don’t know shit about shit wrt young kids and their sexuality, but I know my oldest (5th grade) has a girl in her class that for last 2 years (4/5) who tells them she is a lesbian.   Seems young to me to of figured that out with any certainty, but I’m certainly not an expert.  I recall 2-3 girls coming out right after high school.  I don’t recall a (out) single gay man thru HS and one guy came out (or I heard of it) like 10+ years later.  I think that’s got a lot more to due with social acceptance than there being more gays due to social media or whatever lol is upthread. 

I don't doubt it.  That is relatively harmless. It's really not a whole lot different from a 5th grade boy declaring that he wants to pork Salma Hayek, or Zendaya or whoever 5th grade boys think they want to pork and have been saying so for probably a century or more.

But if she were instead saying "i'm really a boy" that might be more cause for concern.  And I don't mean pearl-clutching concern, but more like sincere parental concern.

But whatever they're saying, I find it nigh unto impossible to believe that the professionals, doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, involved in this a) have an interest in providing gender altering treatment to those who are "just going through a phase" or "acting out." and b) are not fairly expert in sussing out whether the child in question really is suffering from gender dysphoria and really will benefit from the treatment.

I similarly find it nigh unto impossible to imagine that even the most "woke" doctor or other medical professional would treat a patient thusly to advance their "agenda." 

I mean, do people really think they're trying to create some kind of queer army to defeat the fundagelicals or something?  I know what the queers are doing to the soil, but gzus h.

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It was actually Wonder Woman that made me realize that I liked girls, very early on.  So this hits close to home.  But it really is a spectrum.  I was well-groomed, clean, and cultured so people thought I might be gay.  NTTAWWT.  but it never bothered me either.  Two gay relatives chose me to come out to over the years.  Nobody is 100% anything. 

Admittedly, procreation is 100% binary.  A sperm has to fertilize an egg.  No matter who says what, that's how humans get made.  Procreation is not on a spectrum, it's science bitch.  But Sex?  Sex is a spectrum as long as my schlong.  And I couldn't give fuck one who does what with theirs.  

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8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I see lots of ad hominem. Very little in the way of compelling science regarding hormonal drug therapy applied to young adolescents. 

just wait until troph starts calling everyone she disagrees with racist eugenicists. 

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2 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

I’d say that I love them and I would thank them for gathering up the courage to talk to us. I’d have no issue with sending them to counseling,

And when after counseling they are more convinced they are a girl and tell you they are afraid of going through puberty what would you say

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32 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And when after counseling they are more convinced they are a girl and tell you they are afraid of going through puberty what would you say

Change can be scary, so I would be very understanding and stress that treatments are far too risky before adulthood. 

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34 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

stress that treatments are far too risky before adulthood. 

In my hypothetical , that would be the exact opposite of understanding. I tried to walk you through an exercise in empathy, and you point out that it is not something you need to worry about because your children are cis. Why is it unsurprising that you would follow that up with your latest response? 

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3 hours ago, mchookem said:

gay worms, duh

That would make them simultaneously gay and lesbian. Earthworms are functioning hermaphrodites with both male and female parts. When they mate, both worms join both parts to the corresponding other parts on the other worm. They do this by lining up against each other in opposite directions. Ideally, each worm will impregnate the other. So if you ever see two worms canoodling while “facing” the same direction, you might have found some queer worms.

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5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

If you had an eight year old son that came to you and said “daddy I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I really believe I’m a girl” how would you respond? 
 

now take the same child at 11 after 3 years of counseling and therapy who says “daddy I’m more convinced than ever I’m a girl”. How do you respond?

 

5 hours ago, Post Oak said:

He throws him down a well. 

First he calls him or her a terrorist.

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6 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

If you had an eight year old son that came to you and said “daddy I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I really believe I’m a girl” how would you respond? 

I have not had that happen with my kids, but I know they have classmates in their elementary who dress/act the opposite of what some people think they should (boys wearing bright nail polish, wearing dresses, bright scarves,  or whatever to school, etc.) and who maybe want to be addressed by another name or gender, and none of the parents seems to give a shit, and none of the kids seem to be harassing them (at least openly).  Of course my neighborhood has plenty of open LBGTQ types (plenty of kids with two moms or two dads, etc.) and is mostly well-educated, etc.

I'd imagine that up in Arkansas, Oklahoma, or NE Texas where I have relatives, particularly the rural areas, that kind of stuff would not be tolerated one bit, by the schools, by the bullies, and by other parents, and hell possibly by their own parents.  Honestly, I could not imagine what a 7 or 8 year-old boy who wanted to wear bright nail polish and a scarf or dress or whatever to school would go through up there, but I'd imagine it would be horrific.  I'd be worried about their safety.

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A significant amount of evidence supporting positive outcomes of treatment, under the standard of care, of trans adolescents --but not much "high quality clinical evidence" as some would require in this particular arena 

vs. 

no significant or quality evidence that not treating trans adolescents leads to positive outcomes 

Unless you think treatment regret appearing to be 1-10% (and 10% very generously) is a huge thing...

While the culture warriors try to catch up on their very particularized outrage about the audacity of trans people existing and seeking treatment, the evidentiary default of "do no harm" has shifted the burden to the non-treaters.

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