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Breaking news - Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris on fire


Armybrat

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1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Our building techniques commonpy used are not designed to withstand 800 years. That doesn't mean we aren't perfectly capable of engineering something designed to last 2000 years that looks the same. Our biggest setback would be lack of old growth timber with clean straigh wood.

This.  It was built with stone and hardwood at a time when regular buildings used dirt, thatch and animal skins.  Build something out of reinforced concrete set down on bedrock, stainless steel, etc.  It'll last a thousand years with good maintenance. 

ETA

Not saying the repairs should be of the "post-modern architectural" type.  Just saying 21st century technology can be used behind the scenes.

Edited by Parliament
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Just now, Parliament said:

This.  It was built with stone and hardwood at a time when regular buildings used dirt, thatch and animal skins.  Build something out of reinforced concrete set down on bedrock, stainless steel, etc.  It'll last a thousand years with good maintenance. 

The Pantheon is a 2,000 yr old conc. structure. Yep, it's been done.

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8 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I put this in my travel thread, but I thought I would share a few of my favorite photo memories of Our Lady.  May the rebuilding not take 200 years.

https://www.mlleshetravels.com/single-post/2019/04/15/Remembering-Notre-Dame

great pics penelope.  good to see it again in all it's glory.  i was there last june and though not a catholic still extremely moved by the history, architecture, and grandeur of the place.   it will never be the same.

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7 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I don’t think that steel-reinforced-concrete can last hundreds of years.

True, iron expands as it ages and rusts, creating expansion that cracks the concrete further exposing the iron to more rust.  There are better, more stable  material that can create tensile strength in concrete (fiberglass strands).  No reinforcing in the pantheon, it relies on mass, and lighter concrete as it reaches the oculus (+ or - 5 types of concrete in the construction).

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I seem to recall another iconic building that was burned by a mob of uncivilized arsonists about 204 years ago. It was totally rebuilt soon afterwards, and again in the late 1940s when it was totally gutted for a renovation (in which a steel beam frame was built inside the old stone walls).

White-House-burning-Freeman.jpga.amz.mshcdn.com

 

Edited by Armybrat
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2 minutes ago, Parliament said:

You know how rumors go.  I was told this morning that it has a "roof" (presumably stone) under the wood roof that burned.  That roof survived and preserved much of the interior.

Well it's a big building so yeah that's probably true in portions, the main Nave and transepts (congregation and flanking choir spaces) no, it's a soaring stone walled wood topped roof structure.

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59 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

True, iron expands as it ages and rusts, creating expansion that cracks the concrete further exposing the iron to more rust.  There are better, more stable  material that can create tensile strength in concrete (fiberglass strands).  No reinforcing in the pantheon, it relies on mass, and lighter concrete as it reaches the oculus (+ or - 5 types of concrete in the construction).

This is not entirely true.  In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.  Even hairline cracks can be sealed to prevent decay.  Even if rebar has some rust on it prior to concrete placement it tends to help with the concrete's bond to the material.

Certain highway construction will use epoxy coated rebar (the light green rebar you might see on projects), where there is a seaside environment or use of winter deicing salts.

In other projects, electronic sensing equipment will prevent the use of traditional rebar and  fiberglass bars will be used as well as fiberglass fibers, although I have never seen these techniques used for a significant span length.

Many of the box culvert bridges in Texas that were constructed during WWII used bamboo for reinforcing due to steel shortages.

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2 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

This is not entirely true.  In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.  Even hairline cracks can be sealed to prevent decay.  Even if rebar has some rust on it prior to concrete placement it tends to help with the concrete's bond to the material.

Certain highway construction will use epoxy coated rebar (the light green rebar you might see on projects), where there is a seaside environment or use of winter deicing salts.

In other projects, electronic sensing equipment will prevent the use of traditional rebar and  fiberglass bars will be used as well as fiberglass fibers, although I have never seen these techniques used for a significant span length.

Many of the box culvert bridges in Texas that were constructed during WWII used bamboo for reinforcing due to steel shortages.

Thanks, Yeah for sure there are measures that can be taken to prolong the life.  And yeah fiberglass at present can't replace long span steel I believe, but I can see a day when fiberglass shaped sub structures will be used to greater effect.

Keeping rebar or W sections from expanding is the trick, correct ?

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1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I seem to recall another iconic building that was burned by a mob of uncivilized arsonists about 204 years ago. It was totally rebuilt soon afterwards, and again in the late 1940s when it was totally gutted for a renovation (in which a steel beam frame was built inside the old stone walls).

White-House-burning-Freeman.jpga.amz.mshcdn.com

 

So were you a riveter or plasterer?  

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1 hour ago, mdmost said:

D4RgMtMXoAIpiJr.jpg:large

According to reports on Twitter, all 3 rose windows were not damaged including the Rosace Nord which has stood unchanged for 800 years. 

That the rose windows weren't damaged speaks to how large the building is, and stunning good fortune.  They are simply irreplaceable. My first thought yesterday was how quickly do they fail from the heat.

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That the rose windows weren't damaged speaks to how large the building is, and stunning good fortune.  They are simply irreplaceable. My first thought yesterday was how quickly do they fail from the heat.

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

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10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thanks, Yeah for sure there are measures that can be taken to prolong the life.  And yeah fiberglass at present can't replace long span steel I believe, but I can see a day when fiberglass shaped sub structures will be used to greater effect.

Keeping rebar or W sections from expanding is the trick, correct ?

There are many tricks.

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2 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

There are many tricks.

Yeah, I have been building a saltwater pool and was curious what was out there besides standard rebar. There are a lot of new composite materials and the one I would have probably gone with would have been carbon fiber rebar because it can bend and is non corrosive and a lot lighter than standard rebar. The downside is I couldn't figure out where to purchase it or find a crew that was knowledgeable. It was much easier to stay with the tried and true. Interesting reads, though (if you are a nerd).

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2 minutes ago, retread said:

How long would a steel-framed structure built today be expected to last? Like a 20 story office building.

You would think a large structure like the twin towers would be built to last for many generations.

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TP

 

But wanted to add:

I doubt it will be rebuilt as a religious structure. Ultimately it will be rebuilt as a museum. There are  just not enough practicing Catholics left in Paris to bother with the expense of rebuilding as a sanctuary.

 

My $0.02, but I would love to be wrong.

 

And I'm not even Christian, much less Catholic.

Edited by DoobieWah
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34 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

In a non corrosive environment, untreated rebar can maintain its integrity for many generations, especially if the concrete is maintained.

Certainly, but many generations is merely a blip on the radar.

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11 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

First the steel has to be fireproofed, and designed for seismic loading (depending on the zone).

It's an interesting contrast between us and Europe. Apart from any major catastrophes or wars, I wonder if buildings like the the Empire State Building will be here in 500 years. I'm sure there are maintenance contingencies to mitigate aging of the structure.

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15 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I thought all the glass in those windows has been replaced over the years.

The South Window (the largest and 3rd oldest) has a mixture of original glass and later repairs (most especially the 19th Century).
The West Window has almost all newer glass (from the 19th Century).
The North Window (2nd oldest) is almost entirely original glass from 1250.

The vertical windows under the North Window are all repainted from the 19th Century; some of the glass is original.
Almost all of the clestory windows along both sides of the nave are new glass, done in the 1960's (the preexisting glass was all restored in the 19th Century).

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Just now, clapclapclap said:

Cross it off then?

NIce pun, brah!

Actually there's been some kind of spire there from the earliest days, but they kept getting messed up/breaking off (much like the guy in Holy Grail who built 6 castles on top of each previous sinking castle).  Before the spire was reconstructed and re-positioned in the mid-19th Century, it had blown off in a bad windstorm sometime in the 18th Century and nothing was sitting up there except for patches in the roof where it sat.  So it's fair to consider this latest spire pretty much Victorian.

I think they ought to put like a rotating laser on it that shoots holy imagery on nearby buildings, but that's just me.

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