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SmokeyBear1861

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14 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

You have to help rebuild or it doesn’t work. TBH, I don’t know if even that will work in this case. 

But in Germany/Japan, the US stayed and helped rebuild for decades. Obviously it’s a wee bit different in this case. 
 

 

USA rebuild it because they were afraid that it would welcome communism, Patton wrote about that 

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22 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Israel set up a website with videos and images of the Hamas attacks.  Just posting this for reference...not white hatting Israel.

NSFW

  Reveal hidden contents

Final Warning

 

 

Israel's rage is surely justified. The images take this out of the abstract. Horrible beyond imagination. I think it's wise to release these images just as I think we should release images from school shootings and the like. It's different from what one imagines.

This must be particularly enraging. From a terrorist phone:

image.png.94774cc8822637ed57a4d90ccc73eca9.png

 

This doesn't change my stand about what the US should and shouldn't do. This also doesn't justify sledgehammering the people in Gaza. I don't believe the thousands of airstrikes and artillery bombardment on such a tiny space that is also besieged and blockaded can all be justified as militarily necessary.

If I'm correct about punitive bombing of the populace, I don't see the difference in how a child dies at the hands of an invader. 

Hamas has made it so that civilians will be killed. Their hands have the blood of Israelis and Palestinians on them. But not all of it.

Edited by RomaVicta
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I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 
 
The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

Of organized political parties, movements, forces and factions, I believe Hamas is more antisemitic than anything else. Frankly, they look to me like the Islamic version of the KKK. They have the extinction of an ethnic group as a primary goal in their charter. I think seeing their side is akin to trying to see the KKK’s side. I think allowing them to shelter in a civilian population makes as much sense as making a 40k strong , armed KKK shelter in a civilian population. 
 
I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK. 
 
The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

Edited by statsman
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Building on that analogy, that video of a professor, when asked if she denounced the terrorist of Hamas, replying, “It’s not a simple yes-no answer”. 
 
To my ears, that is akin to someone saying they couldn’t denounce the KKK (or white supremacists in Charlottesville). Nonsensical. 

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50 minutes ago, statsman said:

I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 
 
The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

Of organized political parties, movements, forces and factions, I believe Hamas is more antisemitic than anything else. Frankly, they look to me like the Islamic version of the KKK. They have the extinction of an ethnic group as a primary goal in their charter. I think seeing their side is akin to trying to see the KKK’s side. I think allowing them to shelter in a civilian population makes as much sense as making a 40k strong , armed KKK shelter in a civilian population. 
 
I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK. 
 
The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

1.) I don’t agree that anti-semetism and Pro-Zionism are mutually exclusive positions.  I would argue that is the exact position when it comes to many on the right. They buy into the anti- Semitic tropes and dog whistles about Jews individually (see Soros, George) and as a group and yet are have a staunchly Zionist view of what Israel should be- primarily due to a fundamentalist view of the Bible and/or the fact that they hate Muslims even more.  
 

2.) If we understand your definition of those who are “opposed to Israel” to mean “opposed to what Israel is doing vis a vie the  Palestinian question”, then I think can you add a fourth group:  those who are Pro-Israel.  A very legitimate argument can be made that the policies of Israel in the recent past and current war lessen the chance of a secure and safe future for Israel. 

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5 hours ago, statsman said:

I see three groups opposed to Israel:

-antisemites

- anti-Zionists

- pro-Palestinians  

The latter two groups can make coherent arguments for their stances. I personally disagree that (as the UN once voted) that Zionism is racism. And I think the third stance (pro-Palestinian) is one everyone should have at least to some extent. 

There's nothing inherently racist about Zionism. It is just another form of colonialism with a [thin] coat of determinism painted on.

5 hours ago, statsman said:

The Venn diagrams of the group have debatable intersections (although I contend that every antisemite is also an anti-Zionist, although the reverse isn’t true. There are a lot of antisemites that aren’t pro-Palestinian)

I'm sorry, but what the fuck? This is completely untrue and I'm not sure how you can even twist yourself into a weird enough knot to come to this conclusion. You only have to look at Christian nationalist/white supremacist groups and you'll find plenty of examples of people who are strongly anti-semitic but staunchly pro-Zionist because they hold fundamentalist evangelical beliefs that you apparently are not aware of.

This comment does not pass the smell test, as anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of this subject would be able to refute this point easily. I suspect you are simply trying to paint anti-Zionists as inherently antisemitic in a very ham-handed way.

6 hours ago, statsman said:

I view Israelis as an ethnic group trying to deal with a large, hostile, armed and active group like the KKK.

Israelis are not an ethnic group. To try and make this argument, assuming you mean Jewish ethnic group, is inherently antisemitic and just plain ignorant. A significant chunk of the Israeli population is non-Jewish.

6 hours ago, statsman said:

The West Bank? I’m not dumb enough to believe Hamas is staying out of the WB. 

You're going to need to expand on this comment. You're saying a lot of weird shit here, and this sounds like you're trying to justify the settler terrorism occuring in the WB with a throwaway line without providing any evidence.

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11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I would say I'm shocked certain people skimmed over that post without commenting or even pausing for a second to critically analyze it, but I'm really not anymore. Sad.

I say this with all humility, after multiple bourbons: what post? Are you saying a person can't be educated on the Hamas Israeli conflict if they haven't read your posts, or your point wasn't recognized with a specific topic/thread?

Again, I'm not my best self rn, which takes me about to mid, I think, so say it slow....

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42 minutes ago, Welshy said:

I say this with all humility, after multiple bourbons: what post? Are you saying a person can't be educated on the Hamas Israeli conflict if they haven't read your posts, or your point wasn't recognized with a specific topic/thread?

Again, I'm not my best self rn, which takes me about to mid, I think, so say it slow....

No I'm saying the post I quoted was distressingly ignorant.

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

No I'm saying the post I quoted was distressingly ignorant.

Ah...Zionism aside, your statement "I see three groups opposed to Israel" was not very prescient. I can think of 6, maybe 8 groups that want Israel to fail. To pick an edge case, Ill say Bolivia. :). As a more realistic case, Russia and China - any enemy of the Us, Israel or the West. Politics is a zero-sum game. 

I think of Israelis as an ethnic group.

Is that wrong? Half my leadership team is Israeli, but they are not all "Jewish?" Hell, It confuses the shit out of me. I think they would view themselves as ethnic Jews? He's not out of line with that opinion, I think. He might be wrong, but it's not crazy.

As for Hamas in the WB...I'm not there, I don't know. I'd be surprised it they weren't, though I'm confident Israel is the bad actor there. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Ok so wtf is going on here. This is unacceptable. 

 

 

 

Out of line?  Yes.  But at the same time it looks pretty shitty of Biden to largely sit back while borderline genocide is happening.  Maybe he's using stronger language behind the scenes, but publicly it sure looks like he's just going through the motions of asking for Israel to pull back a bit.  Like a parent asking a fussy toddler to behave once, and when they say no, throwing up their hands and saying "I tried, what more do you want me to do?"

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1 hour ago, Captain Obvious said:

Out of line?  Yes.  But at the same time it looks pretty shitty of Biden to largely sit back while borderline genocide is happening.  Maybe he's using stronger language behind the scenes, but publicly it sure looks like he's just going through the motions of asking for Israel to pull back a bit.  Like a parent asking a fussy toddler to behave once, and when they say no, throwing up their hands and saying "I tried, what more do you want me to do?"

Really? They're vandalizing and banging on the gate of our executive residence.  There are basic security concerns with that.

 

I mean, are Secret Service just sitting there watching this? Can you go spray paint the gate of Buckingham Palace? 

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6 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Really? They're vandalizing and banging on the gate of our executive residence.  There are basic security concerns with that.

 

I mean, are Secret Service just sitting there watching this? Can you go spray paint the gate of Buckingham Palace? 

Again, that crowd, and probably other crowds around the U.S. depending on circumstance, should be dispersed and possibly arrested.

At the same time, no one should be surprised at these situations when the government does everything short of cheer on an ongoing genocide.  

The options here are not only let genocide slide or claim Israel has no right to defend itself.

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42 minutes ago, freyguy said:

You mean like when the previous shithead-in-chief gassed protesters so he could have a photo op of him holding a Bible upside down?

Yep

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus christ i forgot about that

Dude how?  That was like a top 3 fucked up thing that happened with that fuck head in charge. 

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I have no issues with the right to assemble and protest. It is one of our most cherished rights. Defacing national monuments and locations is where I think the line needs to be drawn. I lived in DC for a long time, kiddo goes to school there and lives a few blocks from the White House. She said it has been a bit crazy and hectic, a lot of police presence, etc. 

And Lafayette Plaza across from the White House has always been a place to demonstrate. But across the street, not on the walls of the White House. Oh, and saw somewhere the statue to General Pershing was vandalized in DC. Don't remember him being in the Middle East. 

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6 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus christ i forgot about that

I will never forget that because it got me to board an Amtrak and go protest for the first time in my life for a week in DC. Spent the rest of the summer and early fall protesting back here and in DC thanks to that ridiculous photo op.

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On 11/4/2023 at 12:02 AM, Brian Fantana said:

You're going to need to expand on this comment. You're saying a lot of weird shit here, and this sounds like you're trying to justify the settler terrorism occuring in the WB with a throwaway line without providing any evidence.

Look man, the old strawman argument is a sign of a disingenuous person. He clearly said he believes Hamas is acting in WB or has some role to play there, but somehow you spun it to paint the Palestinian's as the victim again, which seems to be a reoccurring theme with you.   Plus, once again, the settler issue is quite complicated as well.  And the Palestinians in those regions have murdered quite a few as well and engaged in terrorism within that region.   

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We have absolutely done a lot. Probably most importantly, parking two CSGs in the eastern Mediterranean has had the desired effect of ensuring that this did not turn into a much larger and deadly (especially for Palestinians) regional war with Hezbollah explicitly joining and Iran doing much more.  Ironically, this specific action has the “peaceniks” super upset , I can only conclude that they badly want a big war.  I’m at a loss for why.  

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1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

It's just a clusterfuck, guys. 

It was a clusterfuck long before I was born, has been a clusterfuck as long as I have been aware of the concept of Israel, and will be a clusterfuck long after I'm dead. I laugh at the prospect of a lasting peace as long as sky daddies drive the narrative. 

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Israel is supposed to have the best intelligence and special forces. Taking out the “bad guys” on a 1x1 level seems like a much better strategy than killing mass civilians. Killing the head of the snake…

You kill a bad guy and people around will be like “he fucked around and he found out”, you bomb a school or hospital and you make another 100 “terrorists”.

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4 hours ago, Nivek said:

Look man, the old strawman argument is a sign of a disingenuous person. He clearly said he believes Hamas is acting in WB or has some role to play there, but somehow you spun it to paint the Palestinian's as the victim again, which seems to be a reoccurring theme with you.   Plus, once again, the settler issue is quite complicated as well.  And the Palestinians in those regions have murdered quite a few as well and engaged in terrorism within that region.   

They absolutely are the victims in the WB? How can you say they're not? Post some evidence.

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4 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Nope. It’s a religious war.  Those don’t tend to end well. 

I believe people are well meaning who want this war to end because almost no one wants to watch what is happening. The thing about this is that they will never stop fighting. We will be long gone and returned to the dirt while other generations fight this several millennia old battle for control of these barren strips of earth. It’s 2023 and we are still attempting to settle things through war and violence like it’s 3000 BC. All the protests in the world are not going to stop warmongers in the Israeli government from doing their thing there.

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2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I believe people are well meaning who want this war to end because almost no one wants to watch what is happening. The thing about this is that they will never stop fighting. We will be long gone and returned to the dirt while other generations fight this several millennia old battle for control of these barren strips of earth. It’s 2023 and we are still attempting to settle things through war and violence like it’s 3000 BC. All the protests in the world are not going to stop warmongers in the Israeli government , Palestinian terrorists, and Muslims from surrounding nations from doing their thing there.

FIFY

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Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

Edited by UpperWestside
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They absolutely are the victims in the WB? How can you say they're not? Post some evidence.

Just go to wikipedia. There is plenty on settler violence committed and violence against them. There is also a bit of history about old jewish enclaves and how they were forced off their land and how some settlements are on those old spots. (Sound ironic?)

Or will you continue to just pretend Pals are the perpetual victims and justify/ignore their crimes?
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2 hours ago, Nivek said:


Just go to wikipedia. There is plenty on settler violence committed and violence against them. There is also a bit of history about old jewish enclaves and how they were forced off their land and how some settlements are on those old spots. (Sound ironic?)

Or will you continue to just pretend Pals are the perpetual victims and justify/ignore their crimes?

Post evidence. I have never ignored Palestinian crimes. That's just you living in a fantasy world.

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20 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

It's completely irrational and honestly, I'm pretty much at the point where we should just let them kill each other.  It sucks, but what's the point in trying to stop it?  It's not ever gonna stop man.

1368822f-c223-4164-9253-531322ff1b88_tex

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21 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Well yeah it’s all of them. Descended from the same people arguing over land that ceased to be beautiful forest land centuries upon centuries ago. The European continent owns the record for most bloodshed in recorded history with war after pointless war, but these folks own the record for longest held grudges that lead to wars and battles that never will have an end point. No one wants to be the bigger person and talk peace. The human ego is one heckuva drug.

Most of the European continent stopped doing this because peace and order and security was enforced on them by first two, then one external hegemon that assumed responsibility for them.  NATO today and the eastern bloc of yesterday served multiple purposes and managing intra-continental tensions was absolutely one of them.
 

Modern day conflicts in Europe flared up in regions (Balkans, Ukraine, Caucuses) where hegemony broke down and no clear guarantor filled that vacuum. Much of the current Middle East post-Ottomans is the same fucking story, it’s not as simple as two warring “sky daddies,” as evidenced by all the kinetic fun between competing Muslims.
 

 The only potential replacements as hegemon either gave up their endeavors (European powers, Turkey), or are too far away and don’t really want the job (the United States), or would really like the job but are too chaotic and shitty to do it (Russia), or are unacceptable to everyone (Iran/Persia).  Turkey pretends it wants the job but doesn’t. 

Hegemony is often better than the alternative.  The best form that has ever been tried out, as evidenced by clear data on peace, stability, and human development, is U.S. transatlantic hegemony, although the far left will keep looking for reasons that can’t possibly be true.  We absolutely don’t want the job in the ME although we care enough to stop a regional war. I guess some of them are really pinning their hopes on the PRC. 

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For those of you with kids in college, this might be worth sharing.

Quote

 

Friends,

I’m worried about my children. Not my biological ones — they’re fine — but my students, whom I think of as my children because I have taught them and counseled them and nurtured them for years.

They are at a time of their lives when they’re trying to figure out the meaning of social justice and their roles in seeking to advance it.

Yet some of them who are Jewish tell me they’re afraid.

Some who are Arab or Palestinian or Muslim tell me they’re afraid, too.

The two groups are afraid of each other. There have been perceived threats, slights, intimidation.

My Jewish students tell me of receiving antisemitic notes, of seeing swastikas, of feeling unsafe.

My Arab, Palestinian, and Muslim students tell me that speaking out against Israel’s aggression has resulted in “doxing,” and in some cases withdrawals of offers of employment. They are subject to anti-Palestinian and Islamophobic taunts. They also feel unsafe.

Here’s what I’m telling them in response.

First, if Jews and Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims on an American college campus cannot feel safe around each other, they will never feel safe around each other, anywhere.

Second, the only way forward is to reject stereotypes, and begin to talk to one another.

Talking to one another involves listening — listening to the fears and anguish, to the anger and resentments on the other side. Trying to understand those feelings and not dismiss them.

Active listening is itself therapeutic to a community torn by dreadful actions thousands of miles away. It is an important act in the pursuit of social justice.

Third, what does not move us closer to social justice is to attribute collective guilt to all Palestinians (or Arabs or Muslims) or to all Jews, for atrocities committed by Hamas or by Israel’s government. Such mass attribution is racist and immoral.

And what moves us away from social justice is to demean, criticize, or threaten others based on their ethnicity or religion.

Fourth, the war raises issues that are morally complicated, because they have complex histories extending back generations, if not centuries, in which both sides feel aggrieved and afraid.

This complexity can make the war difficult or uncomfortable to discuss. The pursuit of social justice is easier when there are clear oppressors and oppressed. Few feelings are more satisfying than righteous indignation.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. Israel’s attack on Gaza is barbaric. The occupation of the West Bank by Israeli settlers has inflicted hardship and cruelty on Palestinians. There is never any moral justification for the killing and maiming of innocent people.

I’m not suggesting bland “both-sides”-ism here. I believe that Israel has been tragically wrong, that its invasion of Gaza is a terrible mistake, and that it is morally unacceptable to consider certain people’s lives more valuable than other people’s lives. 

But the central issue for us should not be who is wrong. All of us are complicit to some degree. The central issue now is how we move forward.

I ask them not to be consumed by their own rage and fear.

I try to dissuade them from putting their energies and efforts into “statements” that reflect only part of the truth, or believe that demonstrations and petitions somehow legitimize their own points of view. I don’t want them to think that there is any easy way to a lasting peace.

Finally, I tell them that there is no ready formula for social justice. Social justice is a process. It requires the discovery — or the creation — of a shared sense of common good.

This may be nearly impossible for Israel and Hamas, so long as Hamas is dedicated to killing all Jews and erasing Israel, and Israelis now live with that fear.

But finding a shared sense of the common good is an achievable goal on the college campuses of America. It must be.

The core of a good liberal arts education is ethics. The central question is the meaning of a good society. This has been the case since the 18th century, when most of America’s prestigious institutions of higher education were founded.

There is no single answer to the meaning of a good society, of course. It is the pursuit of it that draws on one’s judgment and conscience. This is why higher education has advanced the role of reason in human affairs and stood for the Enlightenment values of tolerance and democracy.

My dear students — you, whom I think of as my children — please know that I deeply admire and love you. But I beseech you not to replicate here on this campus the threats and violence now devastating the Middle East.

Use this time in your young lives to chart a different path — of listening, understanding, and respecting each other.

You may not solve the entrenched problems of the Middle East this way, but you will provide a small beacon of hope for social justice in the world.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

 

For those of you with kids in college, this might be worth sharing.

 

Blah blah blah.

Reich is dead-on.  Beautiful sentiments.  Actually lays out a roadmap for the pursuit of a moral good.

He might as well be pissing straight into a hurricane-force wind.  It won't do any good.  Hate is the order of the day.  Cruelty and suffering is on the buffet, and it's all-you-can-eat.  This is what we are.  This is what we do.  "Better angels of our nature" my ass.  It may ebb from time to time, but it will also flow.  And at this moment in history, humanity is opening the spigot wide.

Neither audience is interested in hearing Reich's thoughts.  Warn all you want.  Advise all you want.  It's a waste of time.  Humans are gonna human, and that means fear, blood, death, and suffering.  It's our fucking brand.

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4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

PS: I think it's absolutely hysterical that the the narrative about the settler terrorism in the WB has now switched from "it's unacceptable" to "well, actually...."

It isn't hysterical to serious people when real individuals are dying.  This (appeal) might by how you try to win the narrative back, but you have clearly lost and you are quite prone to insults, strawman and other fallacious thinking especially when challenged by someone who clearly likes to do even a modicum of homework on the subject.   

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

It isn't hysterical to serious people when real individuals are dying.  This (appeal) might by how you try to win the narrative back, but you have clearly lost and you are quite prone to insults, strawman and other fallacious thinking especially when challenged by someone who clearly likes to do even a modicum of homework on the subject.   

 

 

What narrative am I trying to win back? Do you think I am Hamas? I don't understand what you're even trying to say here. I'm not insulting you at all. I'm not sure what I have lost, you're not the one who gets to make that determination, especially when I have asked you multiple times now to provide evidence for what you're saying, and yet you still have not done that. Your best line was "look at Wikipedia", like come on dude.

If you're going to shift your narrative to "WB settler terrorism is actually justifiable now because Hamas", I think it's pretty reasonable for me to ask you to explain yourself.

To be clear, that's directed at statsman, not you.

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