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BurntOrange&White

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To grow up in the era we have grown up in with regards to sports. We were able to witness true GOAT's of their sport go at it. Especially those born in the 70s/80s

 

Football: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith breaking the all time rushing record, the patriots dynasty which in the age of free agency might be the most impressive dynasty ever. All of Jerry Rice's records for receiving.  Lawrence Taylor on the defensive side of the ball. 

Basketball: Michael Jordan and LeBron James, what more could you say?

Baseball: No one will touch Babe Ruth in this department I don't think except maybe the likes of Mike Trout. Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record. The greatest closer of all time, Mariano Rivera. 

Tennis: Serena Williams, Roger Federer, and Rafael Nadal

Golf: Tiger Woods and now the current crop of players. I think current crop is the best overall field ever in golf.

NHL: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux.

Olympics: Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, 

NASCAR: Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt

Boxing: Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather

Soccer: Lionel Messi, Christiano Rinaldo, Mia Hamm, Marta

College Football: The greatest national championship/game of all time, Texas vs USC. Vince Young. 2001 Miami Hurricanes/2005 Texas.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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50 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

To grow up in the era we have grown up in with regards to sports. We were able to witness true GOAT's of their sport go at it. Especially those born in the 70s/80s

 

Football: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith breaking the all time rushing record, the patriots dynasty which in the age of free agency might be the most impressive dynasty ever. All of Jerry Rice's records for receiving.  Lawrence Taylor on the defensive side of the ball. 

Basketball: Michael Jordan and LeBron James, what more could you say?

Baseball: No one will touch Babe Ruth in this department I don't think except maybe the likes of Mike Trout. Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record. The greatest closer of all time, Mariano Rivera. 

Tennis: Serena Williams, Roger Federer, and Rafael Nadal

Golf: Tiger Woods and now the current crop of players. I think current crop is the best overall field ever in golf.

NHL: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux.

Olympics: Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, 

NASCAR: Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt

Boxing: Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather

Soccer: Lionel Messi, Christiano Rinaldo, Mia Hamm, Marta

 

The list of people you are completely ignoring is, to say the least, massive. Recency bias is clouding your view.

Football: Jim Brown, Gale Sayres, Johnny Unitas, Dick Butkus, etc, etc, etc

Basketball: Kareem (they literally had to change the rules of the game to stop him), Earl Manigault (THE "OG" - "original goat")

Tennis: the list is too long

Golf: Ever heard of Jack Nicklaus?

NHL - Gordie Howe?

Olympics - Couldn't even begin to scratch the surface, but ever heard of Abebe Bikila? Jesse Owens? Shun Fujimoto?

Nascar: Petty? Fireball Roberts? Cale Yarborough?

Boxing: Ali? Louis? Jack Johnson?

Soccer- Pele?

Edited by Randolph Duke
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Kobe changed the entire idea of what it means to dedicate yourself to a craft.

Steph Curry changed the game completely. If you can’t shoot at least 35% from 3 you're a liability in today's basketball.

 

The tennis list isn’t that long. It's Serena and Federer.

I guess it's fuck Simone Biles huh?

Edited by USMCHorn
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5 minutes ago, USMCHorn said:

Kobe changed the entire idea of what it means to dedicate yourself to a craft.

Steph Curry changed the game completely. If you can’t shoot at least 35% from 3 you're a liability in today's basketball.

 

The tennis list is that long. It's Serena and Federer.

I guess it's fuck Simone Biles huh?

I couldn't think of everything but you can't mention Federer without Nadal. Those two are arguably the greatest mens tennis players of all time.

 

Agree with Simone, completely forgot about gymnast.

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

This is a silly post. Imagine yourself 50 years ago. It's 1971 and you would think the exact same thing because you have no idea what the next 50 years will bring.

Everyone in every generation will think they got to see the best at some point during the last 40 years. Somebody in 1971 would be thankful they got to see Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, the best basketball players of all time. Because they were in 1971. And so on for every sport.

How's it silly to relish in the fact of witnessing the greatest players to do their sport? I don't understand why you have to act like a bitch about it. 

 

Some of the numbers set by those mentioned in this thread will likely never be touched. Even Jerry Rice's numbers likely won't even though the game has evolved into more passing. 

 

There are some wide gaps, just like your moms thighs, between some of the players on this list. Especially in baseball.

 

It's really about the greatest of the sport.

 

Brady, Jordan/James, Federer/Nadal, Biles, Phelps, Serena, etc. I don't think there has ever been a time where the greatest of so many different sports were around for a generation.

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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25 minutes ago, USMCHorn said:

Kobe changed the entire idea of what it means to dedicate yourself to a craft.

Steph Curry changed the game completely. If you can’t shoot at least 35% from 3 you're a liability in today's basketball.

 

The tennis list isn’t that long. It's Serena and Federer.

I guess it's fuck Simone Biles huh?

Rod Laver. 

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35 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

How's it silly to relish in the fact of witnessing the greatest players to do their sport? I don't understand why you have to act like a bitch about it. 

 

Some of the numbers set by those mentioned in this thread will likely never be touched. Even Jerry Rice's numbers likely won't even though the game has evolved into more passing. 

When they changed the rules of the game to give an added advantage to receivers to create higher scoring games, the numbers mean less. Just look at the second quarter PI calls in the most recent Super Bowl. The NFL circa 2021 is far different than the NFL circa 1965. Kyle Korver is in the top 5 all-time in shooting 3s. Larry Bird barely breaks the top 250. Flashy numbers don't mean everything.

Put Jerry Rice on a grass field, in the elements, wearing steel cleats, and then let Jack Tatum cover him under the same rules as when he put the hit on Darrell Stingley (that hit didn't even draw a penalty flag). Take away the sports science advancements, the sponsorship dollars that allowed him to train continuously (when he wasn't high as a kite) and Michael Phelps would be just another kid down the street. Add modern knee surgery techniques to the careers of an endless number of older-era athletes and their careers would have been transformed. Take modern sports medicine out of the equation and Tom Brady's career would have ended in 2008. Take racism out of the equation and ask yourself if anyone would have ever matched Satchel Paige. Take out the war years and Ted Williams would have had a decent pro baseball career. What would Hank Aaron's numbers have been if he had also been on steroids?

Edited by Randolph Duke
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That's the greatest thing about Sports is that the GOAT list is always in a state of flux as the limits are pushed by the next generation(s).   Training processes improve, technology shaves off a bit of weight, or uses aerodynamics to add a hair of speed, Science of diet improves and one and on and on.

The CHASE.... is what makes sport great.  Not that you don't honor the GOATs but it is passion of all those behind the GOAT that makes sports great. 

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23 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

When they changed the rules of the game to give an added advantage to receivers to create higher scoring games, the numbers mean less. Just look at the second quarter PI calls in the most recent Super Bowl. The NFL circa 2021 is far different than the NFL circa 1965. Kyle Korver is in the top 5 all-time in shooting 3s. Larry Bird barely breaks the top 250. Flashy numbers don't mean everything.

Put Jerry Rice on a grass field, in the elements, wearing steel cleats, and then let Jack Tatum cover him under the same rules as when he put the hit on Darrell Stingley (that hit didn't even draw a penalty flag). Take away the sports science advancements, the sponsorship dollars that allowed him to train continuously (when he wasn't high as a kite) and Michael Phelps would be just another kid down the street. Add modern knee surgery techniques to the careers of an endless number of older-era athletes and their careers would have been transformed. Take modern sports medicine out of the equation and Tom Brady's career would have ended in 2008. Take racism out of the equation and ask yourself if anyone would have ever matched Satchel Paige. Take out the war years and Ted Williams would have had a decent pro baseball career. What would Hank Aaron's numbers have been if he had also been on steroids?


So korver over bird confirmed..

 

 

kyle korver salute GIF by Atlanta Hawks
 

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6 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:


So korver over bird confirmed..

 

 

kyle korver salute GIF by Atlanta Hawks
 

They had to change the rules to keep Kareem from being able to score and Kareem still considered Manigault to be a greater player than himself. That says a lot. Imagine watching a 6' player jump high enough to touch the top of the backboard.

The list of players so much better than the entire rest of the sport that they had to change the rules to keep the sport from being completely dominated is very short. At the moment, I think the list is:

Kareem.

Edited by Randolph Duke
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1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Lol.  I love this place.  This went about as expected.  Which is to say...I’m entertained.  

Let's be honest, what Jack Nicklaus did with steel shafts dwarfs what Tiger has done with modern technology. What Tiger did was transform the fitness level of the sport. He introduced the era of golf athletes instead of golf technicians.

Phelps is extremely impressive, but Bikila won the Olympic marathon barefoot and, just for fun, came back the next time and won it again wearing shoes. Both times setting world records. Does sport get any more elemental than a barefoot Olympic marathon runner?

Ted Williams didn't have his career interrupted by war just once, but twice. And (as far as we know) wasn't on steroids. Do you think Bonds could have gotten off the juice, gone out to be not only a combat pilot but a fighter ace, and resumed his career without missing a beat? Put Aaron or Williams on steroids and Barry Bonds is just Bobby Bonds' son. Mike Trout greater than Ted Williams or even Rodgers Hornsby? Are you kidding?

What would Satchel Paige have done if racism hadn't held him back?

Not even giving Ali a nod as a decent boxer deserves a laugh. Ditto for Jack Johnson. Johnson would have killed Mayweather, especially with bare knuckles and with no limit on the number of rounds fought. What would Teófilo Stevenson have done if that piece of shit Castro hadn't been his way? Mayweather fought 50 times in his pro career and 92 times an an amateur. Tyson fought 58 times as a pro and about 40 times as an amateur. Jack Johnson fought when prizefightng was illegal, so we don't know exactly how many fights he fought, but roughly 95 have been verified, some going well over 20 rounds, never with 10oz gloves. Stephenson fought over 300 times.

Ignoring Richard Petty as a NASCAR driver speaks for itself.

What we have witnessed as of late have been athletes who managed to excel under the rules of the sport at the time and with the benefit of advanced sports equipment and advanced sports medicine. The rules of their sports have mostly been modified to inflate statistics to make the games more appealing to television audiences.

Play a round of golf with steel shaft irons, persimmon drivers and balatas. Give most modern golfers that technology and they would be listed in the record books right next to Dow Finsterwald. Give Bobby Jones graphite shafts and the money in modern golf and his career would have dwarfed Jack's.

Edited by Randolph Duke
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You only mentioned a closer for MLB pitching. How about Bob Gibson, who was so dominate that the league lowered the pitching mound 5 inches and shrank the strike zone from shoulders to knees to armpit to top of the knees after his 1968 season.

 

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17 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

Play a round of golf with steel shaft irons, persimmon drivers and balatas. Give most modern golfers that technology and they would be listed in the record books right next to Dow Finsterwald. Give Bobby Jones graphite shafts and the money in modern golf and his career would have dwarfed Jack's.

Why does this matter relative to the competition? It's not like Bobby Jones was beating dudes using graphite shafts, the guys in his field had the same technological limitations as he did.

Nobody thinks DeChambeau is a better golfer than Jack because he uses a modern driver to hit the ball longer, you just judge how dominant they were in the era they played in.

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12 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

Not hard to believe, really.  Most guys didn't even train in the offseason until the last 40 or so years.  Guys are bigger, faster, stronger and have the money to dedicate themselves 24/7. Also, technology.

In 2021, you have Tom Brady who won't eat strawberries.  Back then, guys were smoking cigarettes and drinking a beer during half innings or at halftime. 

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34 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Why does this matter relative to the competition? It's not like Bobby Jones was beating dudes using graphite shafts, the guys in his field had the same technological limitations as he did.

Nobody thinks DeChambeau is a better golfer than Jack because he uses a modern driver to hit the ball longer, you just judge how dominant they were in the era they played in.

The OP is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying. He isn't looking at the athletes in their era, he is saying the modern era is producing an amazing number of the greatest athletes of all time in their sport.

Comparing Bryson DeChambeau with Bobby Jones isn't valid, regardless of the competition at the time. Modern golfers bomb the ball off the tee, not caring where it goes, and they recover playing iron shots. That is fundamentally a different game than someone like Jones who had to play with far more technique. In world where strength off the tee means little, DeChambeau is cleaning golf clubs for a living, not winning tournaments. Forced to play with balatas, DeChambeau probably wouldn't be a pro golfer.

DeChambeau's skills (and swing style) match the demands of the game at this time. Under the rules and equipment of Bobby Jones' time, his skills would not have translated. Jones, on the other hand, Jones' skills and his swing style would have fit the modern game and modern technology quite well. I would have loved to see Bobby Jones play with graphite shafts and a solid core ball. There would be no question who the greatest golfer of all time was.

Here is another example of how modern technology matters. The OP asserted jimmy Johnson is one of the two greatest NASCAR drivers of all time. Ken Miles was probably a far better driver than Johnson. Had Miles been able to benefit from modern safety equipment, he may well have gone on to prove that. Likewise, if Johnson had to drive with Miles' technology, Johnson probably dies at Watkins Glen in 2000.

Another good comparison would be what if Michael Jordan played in the era when the dunk was not allowed? Would he still be looked at as one of the greatest of all time? Probably not.

Edited by Randolph Duke
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5 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

Comparing Bryson DeChambeau with Bobby Jones isn't valid, regardless of the competition at the time. Modern golfers bomb the ball off the tee, not caring where it goes, and they recover playing iron shots. That is fundamentally a different game than someone like Jones who had to play with far more technique. In world where strength off the tee means little, DeChambeau is cleaning golf clubs for a living, not winning tournaments.

DeChambeau's skills match the demands of the game at this time. Under the rules of Bobby Jones' time, his skills would not have translated. Jones, on the other hand, could have most likely translated his skills to the modern game and modern technology quite well.

Here is another example of how modern technology matters. The OP asserted jimmy Johnson is one of the two greatest NASCAR drivers of all time. Ken Miles was probably a far better driver than Johnson. Had Miles been able to benefit from modern safety equipment, he may well have gone on to prove that. Likewise, if Johnson had to drive with Miles' technology, Johnson probably dies at Watkins Glen in 2000.

So your argument is great players from previous generations would easily adjust their games to modern technology and demands of their respective sports and dominate like no one has ever done, but put an elite modern athlete in a previous era and no possible way they adjust enough to even be a pro/not die in a flaming car wreck. 

I said DeChambeau as a random name because he's a long hitter, Tiger is obviously the modern golf standard. He would have to clean clubs for a living in Jones' era, but that's for a different reason than you asserting. 

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39 minutes ago, n64ra said:

You only mentioned a closer for MLB pitching. How about Bob Gibson, who was so dominate that the league lowered the pitching mound 5 inches and shrank the strike zone from shoulders to knees to armpit to top of the knees after his 1968 season.

 

I was referencing years gen x/millennials grew up in.

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9 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

So your argument is great players from previous generations would easily adjust their games to modern technology and demands of their respective sports and dominate like no one has ever done, but put an elite modern athlete in a previous era and no possible way they adjust enough to even be a pro/not die in a flaming car wreck. 

I said DeChambeau as a random name because he's a long hitter, Tiger is obviously the modern golf standard. He would have to clean clubs for a living in Jones' era, but that's for a different reason than you asserting. 

I think that being the greatest is a mind set and more mental than physical in terms of what it takes to achieve it. Just look at Brady, Jordan, Kobe, etc and their mentalities and preparations. I think giving the greatest athletes of any generation the same work out regiment of modern athletes and the cream of the crop will still rise to the top. Conversely put LeBron back in the old days with their workouts and training and I feel like he'd still be just as good as he is now days. 

 

Once you reach a certain level in a sport it's the little things that help you achieve the level of GOAT and very few throughout the history of the sport have that. While,  yes, you will have hall of famers who were very good in their own right it's the next level that is seldom achieved. That to me is what is amazing about the current crop from 90s-00s and what they achieved. I don't think anyone will touch Phelps, Biles, Jordan/James, or Brady for a long time, if ever. Same with jerry rice. 

 

 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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45 minutes ago, n64ra said:

You only mentioned a closer for MLB pitching. How about Bob Gibson, who was so dominate that the league lowered the pitching mound 5 inches and shrank the strike zone from shoulders to knees to armpit to top of the knees after his 1968 season.

 

dominant*

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Neither Mike Trout nor Barry fuckhead Bonds can sniff Hank Aaron’s jock. Maybe Trout can one day but I seriously doubt his numbers will approach Aaron’s. 

Baseball is the most interesting of this discussions honestly. Considering Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron's stature in the sport have transcended time for so long, especially Ruth. 

 

That's why I mentioned really only Barry breaking the record, although he cheated, a guy who is considered the greatest at his position ever, and the best statistical player of this era of baseball in the conversation.

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1 hour ago, UncleSonny said:

So your argument is great players from previous generations would easily adjust their games to modern technology and demands of their respective sports and dominate like no one has ever done, but put an elite modern athlete in a previous era and no possible way they adjust enough to even be a pro/not die in a flaming car wreck. 

I said DeChambeau as a random name because he's a long hitter, Tiger is obviously the modern golf standard. He would have to clean clubs for a living in Jones' era, but that's for a different reason than you asserting. 

Modern players (such as DeChambeau) impart far more force on the solid-core balls used on tour today. In past eras, there were probably plenty of golfers who could have prospered with the same approach, but the reason players such as DeChambeau can use that technique and the earlier players couldn't is that a high-impact mis-hit with a modern solid-core ball imparts no penalty whereas a high-impact mis-hit on a balata could easily damage the ball, causing the ball to fly errantly. Thus, strength was less of an advantage.

Lower the clubhead speed/ lower the launch speed, raise the spin rate (balatas spun faster than modern balls), and a different set of skills prevails.

Tiger probably would have done ok with older equipment. Tiger has shown an ability to completely reinvent his swing over time. He is one of the few golfers who has done this repeatedly and maintained an ability to compete at a high level. Tiger is far more of a technician than DeChambeau.

Give Bobby Jones the ability to just rip at every drive, not having to protect from a high-impact mis-hit, and his skill set and ability to craft shots from all distances would have allowed him to dominate today's game.

To go back to my boxing discussion, Jack Johnson could have easily switched to 12 round fights and 10 oz gloves and been a champion. I'm not sure Floyd Mayweather could have switched to no gloves and 25 round fights and still be as successful. Asserting Mayweather is a "greater" boxer than Johnson or Ali is difficult to accept.

At the end of the day, today's athletes are stronger, faster and more massive in size. Where sheer strength is concerned give me any of today's athletes over his counterpart of the past. For the skill positions and skill sports as auto racing or golf, competitors in years past were probably better than most of today's. Take golf.

If the challenge is banging a 5-iron close to the pin with an absolutely brutal hangover, I'll take Dow Finsterwald every time. If we are just going tee-to-green for 72 holes with today's equipment, I'll take Bryson DeChambeau and watch it all in the clubhouse, banging out cocktails with Finsterwald.

Edited by Randolph Duke
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5 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

You cannot put a swimmer - as dominant as he was (moreso than Jordan himself) - in the same breath as a team sports player. They are not in the same stratosphere athletically. Phelps is a great swimmer, and not even close to the athlete Jordan is. 

Yeah but if Michael Jordan was a swimmer, he couldn't beat Phelps so....

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6 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

To grow up in the era we have grown up in with regards to sports. We were able to witness true GOAT's of their sport go at it. Especially those born in the 70s/80s

 

Football: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith breaking the all time rushing record, the patriots dynasty which in the age of free agency might be the most impressive dynasty ever. All of Jerry Rice's records for receiving.  Lawrence Taylor on the defensive side of the ball. 

Basketball: Michael Jordan and LeBron James, what more could you say?

Baseball: No one will touch Babe Ruth in this department I don't think except maybe the likes of Mike Trout. Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record. The greatest closer of all time, Mariano Rivera. 

Tennis: Serena Williams, Roger Federer, and Rafael Nadal

Golf: Tiger Woods and now the current crop of players. I think current crop is the best overall field ever in golf.

NHL: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux.

Olympics: Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, 

NASCAR: Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt

Boxing: Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather

Soccer: Lionel Messi, Christiano Rinaldo, Mia Hamm, Marta

College Football: The greatest national championship/game of all time, Texas vs USC. Vince Young. 2001 Miami Hurricanes/2005 Texas.

 

 

 

 

 

I see nothing regarding Aggy beating LSU in 2018. That game cemented the greatest (and most lop-sided) rivalry in all the S-E-C.

What about Secretariat? 

Or Buster Douglas busting up Mike Tyson.

 

 

Edited by Davis Lane
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10 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

To grow up in the era we have grown up in with regards to sports. We were able to witness true GOAT's of their sport go at it. Especially those born in the 70s/80s

 

Football: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith breaking the all time rushing record, the patriots dynasty which in the age of free agency might be the most impressive dynasty ever. All of Jerry Rice's records for receiving.  Lawrence Taylor on the defensive side of the ball. 

Basketball: Michael Jordan and LeBron James, what more could you say?

Baseball: No one will touch Babe Ruth in this department I don't think except maybe the likes of Mike Trout. Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record. The greatest closer of all time, Mariano Rivera. 

Tennis: Serena Williams, Roger Federer, and Rafael Nadal

Golf: Tiger Woods and now the current crop of players. I think current crop is the best overall field ever in golf.

NHL: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux.

Olympics: Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, 

NASCAR: Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt

Boxing: Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather

Soccer: Lionel Messi, Christiano Rinaldo, Mia Hamm, Marta

College Football: The greatest national championship/game of all time, Texas vs USC. Vince Young. 2001 Miami Hurricanes/2005 Texas.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm old, and I've seen all these and add imo...

Basketball: Bob Cousey, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Elgin Baylor, Pistol Fuckin' Pete Maravich (college)

Baseball: Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Willie Mays, Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle, Juan Marichal.

Tennis: fuck tennis

Golf: fuck golf. 

NNL: fuck hockey 

Olympics: Bob Hayes, Wilma Rudolph, Cassius Clay, Rager Johnson, Bruce Ladyboi

NASCAR The King Richard Petty, nuff said.

Boxing: Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Mike Tyson

Soccer:. Soccer? Fuck soccer 

College Football: James Street an Co, pretty much all of Texas championship teams, OJ(slasher) Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Jim Brown, Hershel Walker, Bo Jackson.

I don't disagree with your list, it's just a little thin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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