Jump to content

Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty Guilty


Recommended Posts

Posted
33 minutes ago, The Dog said:

I googled for us non-lawyers -  the purpose of a "motion in limine" is to prevent the jury from being exposed to potentially prejudicial information before a ruling on admissibility can be obtained.)

That’s all we let the public think. The sacrifice to the All Seeing Eye and the examination of the pigeon entrails - we keep that off wiki. 

  • Haha 1
Posted
37 minutes ago, The Dog said:

(I googled for us non-lawyers -  the purpose of a "motion in limine" is to prevent the jury from being exposed to potentially prejudicial information before a ruling on admissibility can be obtained.)

I agree with the MIL tactic, but given what we've seen from Cannon thus far, she won't rule on it and just say that the jury instructions will be given to the jury when the time comes. Can you get to the 11th when a judge continues to say "I haven't made any ruling yet."

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
Just now, Foosters said:

I agree with the MIL tactic, but given what we've seen from Cannon thus far, she won't rule on it and just say that the jury instructions will be given to the jury when the time comes. Can you get to the 11th when a judge continues to say "I haven't made any ruling yet."

The latter is the rub. There needs to be some sort of ruling to appeal. Currently, there isn't one.

A motion in limine is usually filed on the eve of trial but there is nothing that says it has to be. They are also usually evidentiary in nature, while this one would be more to resolve something as a matter of law (PRA does not apply here). 

But I think her denial of one would give Smith the ruling he needs. 

 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
40 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

60371458-de92-4de6-b8f0-c007087a32a2_tex

2c0eda47-e607-4717-bf75-47111895b476_tex

 

Naaah.  There's nobody around who can capture what he has, yet be a greater threat, as the two things are mutually exclusive.

To capture the mood like Trump, you have to be a true "idiot whisperer," and speak fluent idiot.  Which Trump does.  Brilliantly.  Perfectly.  It's his native tongue, and he's better at it than anyone in the past century.  But you really can only do it if you ARE an idiot.  Which he is.  Nobody else can come close.  We watched people like DeSantis flame out trying.

But to be a greater threat, you have to be smarter and more cunning.  Plenty of people out there who match up with that....but it comes with an IQ, which means they can't speak fluent idiot. They'll come across as fake if they try, and the masses can smell that sort of fakeness a mile away.

So, in summary: please have him choke on a hamberder tonight.  The world will be a much better place because of it.

  • Hook 'Em 4
Posted
1 hour ago, Foosters said:

I agree with the MIL tactic, but given what we've seen from Cannon thus far, she won't rule on it and just say that the jury instructions will be given to the jury when the time comes. Can you get to the 11th when a judge continues to say "I haven't made any ruling yet."

Interesting question. I think you can mandamus the failure to rule, but that is a less severe error than making the wrong ruling and less likely to be overturned. However given the stakes and the potential for her refusing to rule on jury instructions and MIL before jeopardy attaches, there might be some traction there. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

The latter is the rub. There needs to be some sort of ruling to appeal. Currently, there isn't one.

A motion in limine is usually filed on the eve of trial but there is nothing that says it has to be. They are also usually evidentiary in nature, while this one would be more to resolve something as a matter of law (PRA does not apply here). 

But I think her denial of one would give Smith the ruling he needs. 

 

But if she grants it, they come to the bench, offer to admit it at that point, and she agrees to admit it at that point. the jury has already been empaneled and jeopardy has attached.  Granting a motion in limine is just another way for her to kick the can down the road past the non-jeopardy barrier.

Edited by dcbc
  • Rage+1 2
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, dcbc said:

But if she grants it, they come to the bench, offer to admit it at that point, and she grants the admission, the jury has already been empaneled and jeopardy has attached. 

Fuuuuck.  

Edit to add that that is somewhat common with evidentiary MIL, maybe not so much with the question of law type. But it would be a helluva yoink. 

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I swear to God, this is like that steam roller scene in Austin Powers. It's been happening in slow motion and nobody has lifted a finger to stop the inevitable and completely foreseeable terrible outcome 

I like the one in a fish called Wanda better 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I swear to God, this is like that steam roller scene in Austin Powers. It's been happening in slow motion and nobody has lifted a finger to stop the inevitable and completely foreseeable terrible outcome 

This is the legal system working 

  • Rage+1 1
Posted
8 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

K-K-K-K-Ken?

is c-c-c-coming to k-k-k-kill me!  How are you gonna c-c-c-catch me, K-K-K-Ken?

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

For Trump.   Not for everyone else.  

That’s why he has 91 indictments and is struggling to pay his second multi-million dollar bond…after losing yet another trial.  

 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
26 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

That’s why he has 91 indictments and is struggling to pay his second multi-million dollar bond…after losing yet another trial.  

Still walking free, still contending for the presidency, still hasn’t suffered any real consequences. Still grifting, still conning the rubes, still getting away with everything the justice system is supposed to be stopping him from doing like defaming his rape victim. Oh, he lost that trial? Twice? Let him lose it a third time. It won’t stop him. So what do we have to celebrate?

If he manages to seize presidential power again, it all goes away. Even state charges. He’ll throw his Justice Dept. and IRS and DHS and ICE (in unidentified “little green men” fashion like he did in Portland) and potentially even CIA at any perceived enemy. 

  • Hook 'Em 8
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Edit to add that that is somewhat common with evidentiary MIL, maybe not so much with the question of law type. But it would be a helluva yoink.

I still think styling it as a motion in limine is the wrong move because a such is not a final determination on admissibility (be it of a legal theory or evidence to support it) and it doesn't get decided until the argument gets reurged at trial.  I'd probably style it as a pretrial motion to exclude any and all evidence offered in support of the PRA defensive theory because the PRA has no applicability here.  Sure, maybe some evidence could be offered for another purpose, but you try to get her to rule on the question of law and if she doesn't you can file your petition for writ of mandamus pretrial.  If that doesn't work, you could file a motion in limine as to the defense's mentioning PRA defensive theory itself.  If she's already dodged that by saying any underlying evidence could be offered for another purpose, you've at least got her backed into a corner.

 

Honestly, I think the current refusal to rule may be enough to take it up, but it's certainly not a lock. 

 

It's a sticky wicket, as they say.

Edited by dcbc
  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
11 minutes ago, locodos said:

At what point (deadline) can NY go after their money?   I mean the clock is still ticking right?

The US justice system seems to have an asymptotic relationship with trump. It's always ever closing in, but never actually intercepting him. 

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, dcbc said:

I still think styling it as a motion in limine is the wrong move because a such is not a final determination on admissibility (be it of a legal theory or evidence to support it) and it doesn't get decided until the argument gets reurged at trial.  I'd probably style it as a pretrial motion to exclude any and all evidence offered in support of the PRA defensive theory because the PRA has no applicability here.  Sure, maybe some evidence could be offered for another purpose, but you try to get her to rule on the question of law and if she doesn't you can file your petition for writ of mandamus pretrial.  After that, you could file a motion in limine as to the defenses mentioning PRA defensive theory itself.  If she's already dodged that by saying any underlying evidence could be offered for another purpose, you've at least got her backed into a corner.

 

Honestly, I think the current refusal to rule may be enough to take it up, but it's certainly not a lock. 

 

It's a sticky wicket, as they say.

In his response thing to the jury instructions order, he did note that there is case law supporting the idea that the judge must rule on jury instructions with sufficient time to take appeal/mandamus if the instructions are flawed, before jeopardy attaches.  I didn't read the cases, but it was somewhat heartening to see that the judge can't seem to push everything off until after the jury is sworn, effectively insulating it from review.

In a civil case, this would be perfect for summary judgment.  There is no summary judgment in criminal cases.  I don't know what the substitute vehicle for this kind of issue is.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

In his response thing to the jury instructions order, he did note that there is case law supporting the idea that the judge must rule on jury instructions with sufficient time to take appeal/mandamus if the instructions are flawed, before jeopardy attaches.  I didn't read the cases, but it was somewhat heartening to see that the judge can't seem to push everything off until after the jury is sworn, effectively insulating it from review.

In a civil case, this would be perfect for summary judgment.  There is no summary judgment in criminal cases.  I don't know what the substitute vehicle for this kind of issue is.

I was thinking the same thing about summary judgment in civil cases.  I'm not up to speed on federal, criminal practice, but as far as objecting pre-trial to jury questions, it seems like you'd still have to have a charge conference after the presentation of evidence so that you could object at that point based on lack of evidentiary support.

 

As alternatives, I guess you could try to make a pretrial motion for directed verdict on a defensive theory unsupported in the law, which clearly has been raised at this point.

 

Or, you could seek mandamus relief after the charge conference, but that's far from ideal with the jury cooling its heels after the presentation of evidence with it's collective memory of what it heard fading.

 

I'm rarely surprised when civil cases get procedurally FUBAR as time goes on.  Criminal cases usually have other weirdness, but are procedurally normalized.

Edited by dcbc
  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't know what the substitute vehicle for this kind of issue is.

Well the first step is admitting that your judiciary has been co-opted, at least in part, by the fascists who want to end democracy. Once we have internalized that, we can start to actually consider remedies to this cancer. 

Problem is, cancers will always grow back unless you completely excise or kill every last bit of it. 

  • Hook 'Em 3
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, dcbc said:

I was thinking the same thing about summary judgment in civil cases.  I'm not up to speed on federal, criminal practice, but as far as objecting pre-trial to jury questions, it seems like you'd still have to have a charge conference after the presentation of evidence so that you could object at that point based on lack of evidentiary support.

 

As alternatives, I guess you could try to make a pretrial motion for directed verdict on a defensive theory unsupported in the law, which clearly has been raised at this point.

 

Or, you could seek mandamus relief after the charge conference, but that's far from ideal with the jury cooling its heels after the presentation of evidence with it's collective memory of what it heard fading.

 

I'm rarely surprised when civil cases get procedurally FUBAR as time goes on.  Criminal cases usually have other weirdness, but are procedurally normalized.

I went and skimmed some of the cases cited by the government.  In the main one, the government asked the judge to declare the applicable law, which he did, erroneously and they sought mandamus, which was granted and the judge ordered to vacate the erroneous order and issue one consistent with the law that the appeals court determined.

If she simply denied such a motion as premature, that would be grounds for mandamus, I'd think, but whether the 11th Circuit would reach the issue of actual applicability of the PRA seems uncertain at best.  They might rule that she has to rule, necessitating another appeal/mandamus.  The 11th Circuit has  shown a willingness to expedite those appeals, however, so that's nice.

Edited by TwiceHorn
  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
Naaah.  There's nobody around who can capture what he has, yet be a greater threat, as the two things are mutually exclusive.
To capture the mood like Trump, you have to be a true "idiot whisperer," and speak fluent idiot.  Which Trump does.  Brilliantly.  Perfectly.  It's his native tongue, and he's better at it than anyone in the past century.  But you really can only do it if you ARE an idiot.  Which he is.  Nobody else can come close.  We watched people like DeSantis flame out trying.
But to be a greater threat, you have to be smarter and more cunning.  Plenty of people out there who match up with that....but it comes with an IQ, which means they can't speak fluent idiot. They'll come across as fake if they try, and the masses can smell that sort of fakeness a mile away.
So, in summary: please have him choke on a hamberder tonight.  The world will be a much better place because of it.
Have you seen his billowy neck? He ain't choking on anything. The berder is going to have to do its magic through his bloodstream.

Come on, massive stroke!
Posted
39 minutes ago, locodos said:

At what point (deadline) can NY go after their money?   I mean the clock is still ticking right?

I no lawdog but the filing by NY AG gave Trump 10 days to respond. 

I'm guessing that if the guys who put up the bond can't prove they have the cash to meet it then it will be rejected. Then the question is does another clock start or can James start collecting immediately? 

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

That’s why he has 91 indictments and is struggling to pay his second multi-million dollar bond…after losing yet another trial.  

 

and it's only going to get worse for him before it gets better. we're 10 days from the stormy daniels criminal trial starting and those bill rates are going to skyrocket.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
6 minutes ago, The Dog said:

we're 10 days from the stormy daniels criminal trial starting and those bill rates are going to skyrocket.

Like Trump pays his bills.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
7 minutes ago, The Dog said:

I no lawdog but the filing by NY AG gave Trump 10 days to respond. 

I'm guessing that if the guys who put up the bond can't prove they have the cash to meet it then it will be rejected. Then the question is does another clock start or can James start collecting immediately? 

and it's only going to get worse for him before it gets better. we're 10 days from the stormy daniels criminal trial starting and those bill rates are going to skyrocket.

Oh yeah? Well fuck him. 

  • Haha 1
Posted
12 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Like Trump pays his bills.

At this point, I think a lot of his legal bills are paid in the form of large retainers.  Whether he, personally, is paying them (unlikely) or it is trickling out of what remains in the coffers of the various PACs or RNC, is not of concern to me.  This is, in fact, how we drain the swamp.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
58 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Still walking free, still contending for the presidency, still hasn’t suffered any real consequences. Still grifting, still conning the rubes, still getting away with everything the justice system is supposed to be stopping him from doing like defaming his rape victim. Oh, he lost that trial? Twice? Let him lose it a third time. It won’t stop him. So what do we have to celebrate?

If he manages to seize presidential power again, it all goes away. Even state charges. He’ll throw his Justice Dept. and IRS and DHS and ICE (in unidentified “little green men” fashion like he did in Portland) and potentially even CIA at any perceived enemy. 

Nothing about what you said will ever change the immutable fact that the average federal criminal trial takes from 12 to 18 months from filing to trial. This is not an average case, so you would assume, even the sans Trump Fuckery, that the trials would be more toward 18 months than 12 months from indictment. 

-Bragg NY State Stormy Trial 3/40/23

-Stollen Records Trial 6/30/23

-J-6 Trial 8/13/23

-Georgia Rico Funfest 8/14/23

The first trial is set for April 15,2024

The second trial has a wildcard of an absolute moron Trump friendly judge, and we are waiting to see when that will go to trial

The Supreme Court will hear the stupid immunity defense Trump is floating on April 25 of this year. With his biggest defense out-of-the-way that should speed up the trial date.

I have no idea how the recent self-inflicted wounds will impact the Georgia Rico case.

Is Trump getting away with saying things that if other people said a judge would throw them in the slammer for contempt? Seems like a yes to me. But then, your average mouthy felon will not have an army of mouth breathers attacking people if this happens.   It is like World War II resistance fighters in France.  You have to weigh killing a couple German soldiers with the Nazis wiping out whole villages in response.  Its not like German soldiers did not need killing. Sometimes you pass on killing a couple German soldiers to protect the innocent. 

is Judge Cannon a problem? Absolutely. But she is being dealt with. Fortunately for us she is dumb as a brick.

My small point is that the federal trials themselves are not in anyway being substantially delayed when you look at the average length between indictment and trial and federal court. When you throw in the fact we are trying to convict a former president, it would be literally foolish to think that would be a quicker trial.

Should they have brought these indictments quicker? You are goddamn right - and that was a mistake. But folks need to chill a little bit about the length of time after indictment (“still walking free..”) because it’s not that bad of a timeline people.  

  • Hook 'Em 6
  • Like 2
Posted
6 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Should they have brought these indictments quicker? You are goddamn right - and that was a mistake. But folks need to chill a little bit about the length of time after indictment (“still walking free..”) because it’s not that bad of a timeline people.  

The delays after indictment wouldn't be a problem if this were not a race against the clock. We know what they are willing to do to take power. Why the fuck are we leaving the door open for them to fuck around again? Why do we all have to find out, AGAIN??

JFC it's like Neville goddamn Chamberlain is in charge of shit, just hoping if we give the fascists enough space and time they'll just move on. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
37 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The delays after indictment wouldn't be a problem if this were not a race against the clock. We know what they are willing to do to take power. Why the fuck are we leaving the door open for them to fuck around again? Why do we all have to find out, AGAIN??

JFC it's like Neville goddamn Chamberlain is in charge of shit, just hoping if we give the fascists enough space and time they'll just move on. 

Yep. And here we are nervously clutching our pearls, sweating out razor-thin margins for the most important election in this country's history.

  • Rage+1 1
Posted

Me, everytime this Chicken-Little talk starts up again:

 

7782da0b-a5b2-4e49-9914-493d57a3f572_tex

 

 

It's not that I don't have the same worries/concerns.  But I will vote for the good guys in November and try to get others to do the same.  That is what I (and most of the rest of us) are able to do.  Apart from that, "Bitch, chill; be cool." 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
1 hour ago, The Dog said:

I no lawdog but the filing by NY AG gave Trump 10 days to respond. 

I'm guessing that if the guys who put up the bond can't prove they have the cash to meet it then it will be rejected. Then the question is does another clock start or can James start collecting immediately? 

and it's only going to get worse for him before it gets better. we're 10 days from the stormy daniels criminal trial starting and those bill rates are going to skyrocket.

I think technically until a bond is posted successfully and any court orders extending the 30-day "deadline" are expired, James must hold off on further collection efforts and would probably do so, prudentially, until the bond tussle is over, either with or without a bond. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted

It's been noted here before with respect to "the rule of law" (the judicial branch of the government), but really, it's true for both of the other branches (legislative and executive): our system of government is built on a foundation of mutual agreement (I'll follow the rules, and so will you) and trust.  It just is.  It's one of the things that makes it really great....when it works.  It is also a thing that makes it vulnerable.

Our system, all three branches, is vulnerable and has a weak spot: it is not built to fully manage and control truly malevolent bad actors, particularly if there is a cadre of them.

The legislative branch "failsafe" failed (recall the Senate acquitting Trump....not based on evidence or legal principles, but based on them siding with team "fuck Democracy.")

The executive branch failed (see Donald Fucking Trump).

The judicial branch is failing (see this thread).

This country is just a fucking agreement.  That's all it is.  And once enough people opt out of that agreement, then there's no outcome but chaos and blood.  That's, ummm, a big reason why a bunch of us around here have been urging the GQP types "ummm, guys, maybe DON'T just toss our entire system of government in the trash heap, because we'll all pay the price?"

  • Hook 'Em 5
Posted (edited)

No doubt all of us lawdogs have had a shitty opponent and a judge that is slow to or refuses to rein them in or punish them. 

It's one of several frustrations that lawdogs endure from various sources. One of the primary ones being general slowness, which is an electoral problem moreso than inherent to the courts. You just have to accept some of it. 

In the civil context, big-picture perspective generally requires you to accept or understand that it's about money (far less so principle most often) and thus not that big a deal in the grand scheme most of the time. 

And as ponderous as the system may be, it reaches the "right" result more often than not. Right is in quotations there because right is often or always dictated by the laws passed by the legislature, which can be pretty far from right sometimes. 

For those who have the luxury of not having to participate in it or pay close attention, I'm sure it's extra-frustrating. 

Edited by TwiceHorn
  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
2 hours ago, Captainant said:

The delays after indictment wouldn't be a problem if this were not a race against the clock. We know what they are willing to do to take power. Why the fuck are we leaving the door open for them to fuck around again? Why do we all have to find out, AGAIN??

JFC it's like Neville goddamn Chamberlain is in charge of shit, just hoping if we give the fascists enough space and time they'll just move on. 

Unless you can offer some legitimate solution to the fact all trials take some time, important trials longer, how do you propose we solve the problem of the late indictments?  Prohibit delays if it is Trump making them?  Require all trials to be done before November, and ban appellate rights? 

I’m open to hearing solutions, and want the same result that you do, but I’m a bit tired of histrionics about a system built to be grinding along is…well…grinding on…

You have “Do something!!” covered. I just keep missing any suggestions that could accomplish your goal.   Because I’d love to see your goals accomplished.

Your Chamberlain analogy is not very apt, as nobody here does not recognize or discounts the threat.  But since we can’t get in Mr. Peabody’s Way Back Machine and bring indictments in 2021, we are stuck with the current system.   it is like you just erase from your mind that if we had a trial before November, the appeals would go on for another year.   It is what it is.  

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
Posted
Unless you can offer some legitimate solution to the fact all trials take some time, important trials longer, how do you propose we solve the problem of the late indictments?  Prohibit delays if it is Trump making them?  Require all trials to be done before November, and ban appellate rights? 
I’m open to hearing solutions, and want the same result that you do, but I’m a bit tired of histrionics about a system built to be grinding along is…well…grinding on…
You have “Do something!!” covered. I just keep missing any suggestions that could accomplish your goal.   Because I’d love to see your goals accomplished.
Your Chamberlain analogy is not very apt, as nobody here does not recognize or discounts the threat.  But since we can’t get in Mr. Peabody’s Way Back Machine and bring indictments in 2021, we are stuck with the current system.   it is like you just erase from your mind that if we had a trial before November, the appeals would go on for another year.   It is what it is.  

THIS!

I guess some would propose a solution along the lines of just having judges state:

“ I know that there are rules and shit, but I really think this defendant is a danger to our country so I’m going to just do some shit that I never do otherwise, possible outside what is allowed by law.”
  • Hook 'Em 3
Posted
10 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

so the system is working as designed, is what you are saying. what others are saying is that system is shit and needs to be rethought. both can be true.

I think it's just that the posts seem to preponderate heavily toward "the system is shit" and not so much of how the system should be rethought.  Without the how, it's just complaining, and to the extent that it's valid, it's pretty tiresome to read.  That doesn't mean some of us who are pretty familiar with the judicial system don't agree.  How to fix a "broken" system is a more interesting and useful discussion.

  • Hook 'Em 3
Posted (edited)

Should a case, whether civil or criminal, rise to the threshold of threatening our Republic, let any and all appeals, or legitimate questions before the court, be decided post haste by the appropriate court, up to and Including SCOTUS. 

Edited by Willfully Horn
  • Hook 'Em 4
Posted

One can sense that the system sucks without having the answers to fixing it.  I mean, we're lay people, we just have a sense of justice and that something about the justice system sucks if this guy can't ever get punished.  (Various financial hand slaps don't count.)



×
×
  • Create New...