Common vernacular with objectionable origin

[TexasHooch 4946]

I had an interesting discussion today. Yesterday, I was in a meeting where I mentioned the possibility of grandfathering in certain employees to a new way of doing something.  Today, a coworker reached out to me to give me the heads-up that the term has a dubious origin.  As much as I am a history and language nut, I had no idea.

Quote

The 15th Amendment, which prohibited racial discrimination in voting, was ratified by the states in 1870. If you know your history, you'll realize that African-Americans were nevertheless kept from voting in large numbers in Southern states for nearly a century more.

Various states created requirements — literacy tests and poll taxes and constitutional quizzes — that were designed to keep blacks from registering to vote. But many poor Southern whites were at risk of also losing their rights because they could not have met such expectations.

"If all these white people are going to be noncitizens along with blacks, the idea is going to lose a lot of support," says James Smethurst, who teaches African-American studies at the University of Massachusetts.

The solution? A half-dozen states passed laws that made men eligible to vote if they had been able to vote before African-Americans were given the franchise (generally, 1867), or if they were the lineal descendants of voters back then.

This was called the grandfather clause.

The person who brought it up wasn't offended by my use of the term, nor were they trying to shame me for using it- it was just a heads up, which I actually appreciated. 

It did, however, bring up a question that's been bouncing around in my head since.  At what point, if any, does the use of a phrase or term transcend and/or replace its origin? I think of other things like "rule of thumb", "sold down the river" or "cake walk".  In our current lexicon, I doubt many even consider what they meant 200 years ago, because they don't mean that now.  But, as we are brought to understand, does it become our responsibility to avoid them, or is there a point in which we should all accept that the original uses have been successfully co opted for much broader and current usage?

 

[956 Worldwide 33957]

Equally as interesting his how some vernacular gets inaccurately retconned into offensive origin, like “rule of thumb” in your example or “picnic” which has been alleged to have racist origins. 
 

It’s always good to reassess and use better words especially when the origin and associations are clear (sell down the river) but I also think it’s best accomplished through gentle reminders and intentional action on our own part and not angry policing of people who don’t know better. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Brisketexan 103132]

Here's one that I still use periodically (mostly when talking to myself, so that's helpful), which was even the subject of a well-publicized incident at Southwest Airlines: "eenie meanie miney moe."

Now, I grew up in a much less enlightened time and place, and certainly heard people use the N-word in public.  But as for that phrase when picking from several choices, I had ONLY ever known "eenie meanie miney moe, catch a tiger by his toe..."  From the Southwest Airlines story, I found out that the ORIGINAL version was "catch a n-word by his toe."  Which, of course, is shittastically racist.

But here's where I get brainlock: to me, it's just an innocent little rhyme device to make a choice, with zero racism in the words used.  And I'd been using it for decades, it's a habit, and one that, again, had ZERO racism in its wording.  Now that I know the original version and thus the origin of the rhyme....am I behaving insensitively when I spot three cupcakes on the counter and pick with an out loud "eenie meanie miney moe?"  I don't think I am.  But, that said...I do my best to avoid using the rhyme when around others, at least others outside my immediate family.

I don't know....I kind of wish "intent" would play more of a role in how we think of things that people do, both positively and negatively.

[Helobious 9394]

Today I learned an actual adult male still does “eenie meanie miney mo” for things. Wow. 

[Brisketexan 103132]

9 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Today I learned an actual adult male still does “eenie meanie miney mo” for things. Wow. 

I also say groovy, swell, neato, and keen.  I see it as a more innocent offset of my over-the-top use of profanity.

[Deej 76077]

And some wear Walmart black v-neck tees and cheap Amazon silver chains. 

Tomato, tomatoh.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Deej

[TexasHooch 4946]

 

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Here's one that I still use periodically (mostly when talking to myself, so that's helpful), which was even the subject of a well-publicized incident at Southwest Airlines: "eenie meanie miney moe."

Now, I grew up in a much less enlightened time and place, and certainly heard people use the N-word in public.  But as for that phrase when picking from several choices, I had ONLY ever known "eenie meanie miney moe, catch a tiger by his toe..."  From the Southwest Airlines story, I found out that the ORIGINAL version was "catch a n-word by his toe."  Which, of course, is shittastically racist.

But here's where I get brainlock: to me, it's just an innocent little rhyme device to make a choice, with zero racism in the words used.  And I'd been using it for decades, it's a habit, and one that, again, had ZERO racism in its wording.  Now that I know the original version and thus the origin of the rhyme....am I behaving insensitively when I spot three cupcakes on the counter and pick with an out loud "eenie meanie miney moe?"  I don't think I am.  But, that said...I do my best to avoid using the rhyme when around others, at least others outside my immediate family.

I don't know....I kind of wish "intent" would play more of a role in how we think of things that people do, both positively and negatively.

Eenie meanie miney moe is a particularly interesting one to me because many scholars argue that its actual origins are relatively benign (rooted in Celtic or Welch language). These scholars argue that the english slur usage came waaaay later.  It then morphed into the nursery rhyme that we all know. Ultimately whether something is rooted in racism or polluted by it is largely a distinction without a difference.

I don't know. 956 offers a perfectly reasoned approach that I can totally get behind in principle, but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

 

[Brisketexan 103132]

Just now, TexasHooch said:

but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

Yeah....and I use a LOT of em.  I mean, "colder than a witches tit" is still okay, right?  Or did I just insult wiccans?  Or just those who have tits?  Or maybe those who are sensitive about not having tits?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Walser 1088]

Oriental. 22 years ago as I was vociferously ingesting any literature I could about the ME and Islam, I noticed this term used a lot in literature. (Occidental being the West) Both of these terms are so twisted now I just don't use them.

[Brisketexan 103132]

Just now, Walser said:

Oriental. 22 years ago as I was vociferously ingesting any literature I could about the ME and Islam, I noticed this term used a lot in literature. (Occidental being the West) Both of these terms are so twisted now I just don't use them.

[TexasHooch 4946]

I kind of like what the LGBTQ community did with the word queer.  "Fuck you, we're taking it back."  I'm still not going to use it, but I love the approach.

[Armybrat 40464]

Mighty white of the OP to bring this topic up.

[TexasHooch 4946]

3 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Mighty white of the OP to bring this topic up.

[Captain Ron 12691]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
 

Tons of technologies used the master/slave concept. SPI, etc. needless to say it is falling out of favor. 

[TexasHooch 4946]

What about the master bedroom? Is that a thing too?

[956 Worldwide 33957]

43 minutes ago, Walser said:

Oriental. 22 years ago as I was vociferously ingesting any literature I could about the ME and Islam, I noticed this term used a lot in literature. (Occidental being the West) Both of these terms are so twisted now I just don't use them.

About two years was once in a seminar for academics being given orientation for a program they were all in and a mathematics professor from West Texas A&M called a colleague “an Oriental whose nationality I’m not sure of.” That place fucking ERUPTED.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5695]

47 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I also say groovy, swell, neato, and keen.  I see it as a more innocent offset of my over-the-top use of profanity.

Groovy, swell, neato, and keen? 

From now on you're going to use bitchin, tits, rad, and dope

[956 Worldwide 33957]

48 minutes ago, TexasHooch said:

 

Eenie meanie miney moe is a particularly interesting one to me because many scholars argue that its actual origins are relatively benign (rooted in Celtic or Welch language). These scholars argue that the english slur usage came waaaay later.  It then morphed into the nursery rhyme that we all know. Ultimately whether something is rooted in racism or polluted by it is largely a distinction without a difference.

I don't know. 956 offers a perfectly reasoned approach that I can totally get behind in principle, but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

 

I don’t think getting yourself twisted in knots over this is helpful and it is exhausting. More of a “if you’re made aware of something and it makes sense, just try to drop it and not cling to it.” And don’t police others. It’s just not the biggest battle out there and we can’t be experts in everything. 

[Brisketexan 103132]

What about the master bedroom? Is that a thing too?

Depends…gotta slave in there?

[Brisketexan 103132]

Groovy, swell, neato, and keen? 
From now on you're going to use bitchin, tits, rad, and dope

I do use bitchin’, rad, and the tits. I’m not street enough for “dope.”

[huge 3766]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Depends…gotta slave in there?

Realtors use "primary bedroom" now.  At least online.

[Captain Ron 12691]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I also say groovy, swell, neato, and keen.  I see it as a more innocent offset of my over-the-top use of profanity.

Do you also still let people know they will rue the day?

[atomheartbevo 88749]

1 hour ago, TexasHooch said:

but I admit that the thought of having to question or revisit the etymology of every slang phrase I use is exhausting.

Yeah, it is exhausting, but there are times where you can find a better word and should either because of the etymology or because, well like referring to the Irish as bog jumpers -  I get tired of explaining why they jump over/through bogs. It's fallen so far out of usage, there's no point in using it.

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think getting yourself twisted in knots over this is helpful and it is exhausting. More of a “if you’re made aware of something and it makes sense, just try to drop it and not cling to it.” And don’t police others. It’s just not the biggest battle out there and we can’t be experts in everything. 

I had relatives who had a neighbor who used the n-word a lot, and he used it when referring to something being quickly assembled or that was a temporary fix, basically saying it was "n-rigged". I always used jerry-rigged (and thought it was related to jerry cans (gas cans) and that it was some kind of WWII slang brought back), but years later, I kind of began wondering about it, and it turns out that what a lot of people mean is jury-rigged, both of which have nautical origins (jury = makeshift/temporary, rig = rigging) but then jerry can also be used, basically using materials at hand for a temporary fix and not necessarily the proper materials.  Jury-rigged goes back centuries. I kind of wonder if, because I was hearing it in the South, the drawl was fucking it up and I was hearing jerry instead of jury. 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/jury-rigged-vs-jerry-rigged/

With that said, of course people substituted a racial slur in.  I'm not sure where I was going with that, other than I'm glad it was actually a nautical term that dates back centuries.

[PRONG HORN 3085]

 

 

I think about all the ignorant Christians who think that "have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" and similar wording etc., means to "dominate" as the word is commonly known today.  Buncha dumbfucks.  

 

 

 

[jdhorn92 1523]

Primary bedroom repalcing master bedroom is appropriate imo....I  prefer to use the term main bedroom....Mrs JDHorn (no pics) is a realtor.

The phrase "back of the bus" used  needs to be 86'ed , no need for that.

"Black and White procedures", Ive replaced with non-negotiables , in meetings recently. 

Any time someone uses the term "jew them down", I cringe.  I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners'.  I havent heard that in ages, so thats good.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by jdhorn92

[Guest]

If people don't want to consider context, then fuck em.

if they just wanna get their feelings hurted, they aren't going to last long anyway.

yeah, be better, but stop it with the eternal emotional injuries, as well.

Grow the fuck up and live life.

and real life steps up this week:  Had a peer fired this week for sending D pics to a newhire female out of college.  That's the shit I will never understand.  "well they've responded positively in the past"  has never been the reasoning, right?

Edited December 8, 2023 by slorch

[Incredulity 11141]

7 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners

Sometime around 2008 or so I was traveling through Duluth, Minnesota and encountered a fairly prominent coffee chain in the area named Beaners.  I was stunned that I was seeing it and quite surprised that was accepted in the area.  Read a few years back they changed the name,  which made sense.

[Incredulity 11141]

5 minutes ago, slorch said:

Had a peer fired this week for sending D pics to a newhire female out of college.

I’m of a generation prior to camera phone ubiquity, but I could never imagine an unsolicited dong pic as a winning move when trying to get tobsome naked time with a woman.  But I admittedly have been out of the game a long while. 

[Celery Man 20535]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Your_Ears_Hang_Low%3F
 

Quote

 

Some authors regard these as parody versions of the campfire song,[4] but, according to folklorists such as Ed Cray, the evidence strongly suggests that "Do Your Balls Hang Low?" came first, and that "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" is a sanitized version.[1]

The earliest apparent report of "Do Your Balls Hang Low?" is said to date from about 1900.

 

Lyrics make more sense with balls by quite a bit.

[choripan 770]

Funny this thread came up.  I've never said the following out loud because it's not a particularly interesting story out of this context.

I grew up in and around Detroit and my dad's friend group was about 50/50 slav and black. Growing up, I always heard the phrase "no skin off my back" to describe something that was no big deal.

I grew up saying it and still did until a couple years ago, when I was doing some shower thinking and had that holy shit moment, like "oh my god, I can't believe I've been saying this all this time."

Edited December 8, 2023 by choripan
Clarity

[Not a cat 5596]

I used to use sell down the river.  Never really thought about its origin until someone pointed it out to me.

I always thought that "Oriental" was the PC term until I used it about 15 years ago and a Korean colleague lit me up.  It's like a memo was sent out to everyone but me and it became racist to use it overnight.  Unlike "sell down the river" that term doesn't have some inherent racial origin afaik.

I was on a conference call with a Native tribe and a colleague used the term "circle the wagons".  

[WhatTheBuck 28574]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I also say groovy, swell, neato, and keen.  I see it as a more innocent offset of my over-the-top use of profanity.

Okay, how about lousy?

 

[CTC2 2623]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Yeah, it is exhausting, but there are times where you can find a better word and should either because of the etymology or because, well like referring to the Irish as bog jumpers -  I get tired of explaining why they jump over/through bogs. It's fallen so far out of usage, there's no point in using it.

I had relatives who had a neighbor who used the n-word a lot, and he used it when referring to something being quickly assembled or that was a temporary fix, basically saying it was "n-rigged". I always used jerry-rigged (and thought it was related to jerry cans (gas cans) and that it was some kind of WWII slang brought back), but years later, I kind of began wondering about it, and it turns out that what a lot of people mean is jury-rigged, both of which have nautical origins (jury = makeshift/temporary, rig = rigging) but then jerry can also be used, basically using materials at hand for a temporary fix and not necessarily the proper materials.  Jury-rigged goes back centuries. I kind of wonder if, because I was hearing it in the South, the drawl was fucking it up and I was hearing jerry instead of jury. 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/jury-rigged-vs-jerry-rigged/

With that said, of course people substituted a racial slur in.  I'm not sure where I was going with that, other than I'm glad it was actually a nautical term that dates back centuries.

I definitely heard Jerry growing up. 

[956 Worldwide 33957]

17 minutes ago, choripan said:

Funny this thread came up.  I've never said the following out loud because it's not a particularly interesting story out of this context.

I grew up in and around Detroit and my dad's friend group was about 50/50 slav and black. Growing up, I always heard the phrase "no skin off my back" to describe something that was no big deal.

I grew up saying it and still did until a couple years ago, when I was doing some shower thinking and had that holy shit moment, like "oh my god, I can't believe I've been saying this all this time."

I have never heard “no skin off my back” but my very Texan dad said “no skin off my nose” all the time. 

[PRONG HORN 3085]

31 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I always thought that "Oriental" was the PC term until I used it about 15 years ago and a Korean colleague lit me up.  It's like a memo was sent out to everyone but me and it became racist to use it overnight.  

 

 

Oriental isn't offensive to real Asians.  Only Western Asians in just a few countries (USA/Australia) get butt hurt about it. 

 

 

[Incredulity 11141]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I have never heard “no skin off my back” but my very Texan dad said “no skin off my nose” all the time. 

I’ve heard both and also “No skin off my teeth”.  Don’t know if that is supposed to be ironic or play off the others..

[Pods 7426]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah....and I use a LOT of em.  I mean, "colder than a witches tit" is still okay, right?  Or did I just insult wiccans?  Or just those who have tits?  Or maybe those who are sensitive about not having tits?

Negative. Virtually all women are freezing all of the time. Witches are women and thus it's an accurate descriptor. Saying "it's colder than a warlock's tit" on the other hand... 

45 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

I was on a conference call with a Native tribe and a colleague used the term "circle the wagons".  

All of us that grew up in the West/Southwest probably have a bunch of those Old West origin words.

I'm working on eliminating "off the reservation" and "off the rez" from my own speech after I caught myself before making a similar gaffe.

Shit's hard. I hadn't realized how often I said them until I started paying attention. 

[CooterBrown 17693]

Grew up with my grandma saying the catch a N by the toe, Jew me down, the black side of town was N Town, black babies were pickaninnies, etc. I am still not sure what the real name of the N Toe flower is.

What’s weird is writing all that up makes me think my grandma was racist AF but she’d never said a bad word about any person regardless of race. She would buy a disabled black lady groceries every week and leave them on her porch. She’d never even met her or told her she was dropping off groceries. It was just someone she’d heard was struggling and decided to help. Just did it weekly for years. At Christmas, she’d drop of dozens of gifts for that lady’s grandkids she was raising. She just used the casual racist language she grew up with. 1970-80s Texas was a strange place.

[F250 28379]

11 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

She just used the casual racist language she grew up with. 1970-80s Texas was a strange place.

Your grandmother grew up in the 70s- 80s? How young are you?

[texasdago 7375]

I was in a meeting probably 3-4 years ago when I talked about someone getting "whipped into shape" in the context of being disciplined.  Never really thought about the term until I noticed one of my clients who happened to be black noticeably react.  I felt terrible and realized in one fell swoop how bad it sounded.  Never used the term again.  

[F250 28379]

Years ago, when my boys were in elementary, about 5th and 4th grade, I picked them up from their friend's house. There were about 8 boys throwing a football is the air then everyone would tackle the kid with the ball.

When my boys got in the truck, I asked them "y'all playing smear the queer?"

My kids reaction.

My oldest has since graduated college and is an officer in the Air Force and the other one is about to graduate from college. It's been years since they were in elementary. My youngest is in middle school and the respect for minorities is now considered "political" and is not being taught to the younger generation.

We are backsliding as a society.

[cactusflinthead 26788]

5 hours ago, Walser said:

Oriental.

But, what if it's the Asian grocery store calling itself that?

I'm serious. Asian has supplanted oriental in my use and it's a little startling to see it still used on a marquee.

Pretty good little independent grocery store in Haltom City has it right in front.

I laughed. Was I supposed to get mad on their behalf? It's not my burden to correct them. 

"Hey! You're supposed to be offended!"

Yeah. No. 

Laugh. 

I don't use language that I know is likely to be offensive to the other person. Well, unless I am trying to be shocking and profane.

But, there's some nuances to all this.

Did anyone else do a double take the first time they heard Hockey Night in Canada referred to as HNIC?

The words we say are so far removed from their origins it's difficult to be upset with their use. Most of the time. They're certainly exceptions.

 

[F250 28379]

9 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Did anyone else do a double take the first time they heard Hockey Night in Canada

[Gil Bang 25501]

5 hours ago, TexasHooch said:

What about the master bedroom? Is that a thing too?

 

3 hours ago, jdhorn92 said:

Primary bedroom repalcing master bedroom is appropriate imo....I  prefer to use the term main bedroom....Mrs JDHorn (no pics) is a realtor.

The phrase "back of the bus" used  needs to be 86'ed , no need for that.

"Black and White procedures", Ive replaced with non-negotiables , in meetings recently. 

Any time someone uses the term "jew them down", I cringe.  I come from the age when Mexicans were called 'beaners'.  I havent heard that in ages, so thats good.

 

 

Yep.  I belong to the largest MLS in the country, and our listings no longer show master bedroom.  It's primary now. 

[cactusflinthead 26788]

23 minutes ago, F250 said:

It's a thing. Every Saturday. Right there on The TV and the hashtag is HNIC.

Or are you telling me you don't know that acronym in the less than polite version?

[PRONG HORN 3085]

6 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Yep.  I belong to the largest MLS in the country, and our listings no longer show master bedroom.  It's primary now. 

 

 

We no longer refer to someone "mastering" a sport or similar?  Will the master of your domain Seinfeld episode be canceled?  

 

 

[F250 28379]

20 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

It's a thing. Every Saturday. Right there on The TV and the hashtag is HNIC.

Or are you telling me you don't know that acronym in the less than polite version?

No idea about the acronym or Canadian hockey and especially Canadian hockey at night.

You might as well have referenced Finnish Curling at night.

[Lhorn 4862]

This will never be wrong:

[Bevo 13417]

 

When giving a shot, I always tell my Spanish patients that they are going to feel a little pinche. No one seems to mind.

[cactusflinthead 26788]

5 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

HNIC is a cool acronym I've only heard other black people use in conversation. Sort of like that other word.

Like Cooter I first heard it from older family. I have heard it from black folks, mostly older, since then.