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Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase 4: Tripping Balls (Spoilers)


atomheartbevo

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I finished the new MCU book the other day and enjoyed it.  It's not high art, but as some great stories and it's fun revisit the movies through those stories.  It's a fun read.  I especially enjoyed the creation of the company and the WILD deals they made before they knew what they had.

Also, Ike Perlmutter seems like a huge pain in the ass.

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On 11/8/2023 at 2:24 PM, The Dog said:

image.thumb.png.30d06ae458d2576172ace8edf65a1acd.png

(ETA - audience scores for Eternals and Quantumania were significantly higher than the critic but worse than critics for Secret Invasion.)

 

https://www.theverge.com/23942217/marvel-mcu-marvels-variety-franchise-disney-quality

Quote

 

The Marvels, the company’s latest and reportedly far from greatest installment in its cinematic universe, hits theaters today. It’s projected to be a spectacular flop by Marvel’s lofty standards: The film reportedly cost $250 million and is only expected to pull in $75 million–$80 million this weekend. That’d continue an underwhelming streak for the once-dominant Disney brand.

What went wrong?  Variety details a hot mess at Marvel, especially in its preproduction decision-making. Scripting oversights allegedly led to four weeks of reshoots for The Marvels. And it doesn’t sound like the plot will save the day: The New York Times’s review of this 33rd MCU film is titled “You’ve Seen This Movie 32 Times Before.”

The Marvels is one of several problems at Marvel

Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania disappointed at the box office in February, and now potential sequels and spinoffs are in jeopardy as star Jonathan Majors—on whom Marvel was relying for the next phase of the MCU—faces domestic violence charges.

The movie’s CGI was considered embarrassingly bad, likely because Marvel executives moved up its release by more than four months, sending visual effects artists scrambling. Marvel’s VFX workers voted to unionize in September, citing 14-hour workdays and no overtime.

 

 

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They are finally taking the foot off the gas with the MCU movies - they apparently came out and said Deadpool 3 is the only Marvel movie out next year - Captain America and the other(s) slated for 2024 were pushed back to 2025.  Ostensibly it's about the writer's strike, but from what I've heard (friend that works at one of their VFX sub-contractors), they are backing off and taking a hard look at their production pipelines, overall story arc, etc.

They should have done this with the last Ant-Man movie though, but maybe they didn't consider it a wakeup call (and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3's box office helped soften the blow).

They screwed up in the aftermath of Endgame.  It was so epic, that it was hard to dial things back, and the multiverse stuff running concurrently with the quantum realm stuff with the Invasion/space stuff just....I really enjoyed the Loki shows (especially the second season) ....but I almost forgot that Guardians of the Galaxy 3 came out this summer, and I completely forgot Kraven.  Now that they've got Fantastic Four and X-Men, they need to take a breather.

Looking at the list below, the only things that really interest me are What If?, X-Men '97, Echo, Deadpool, Agatha (Kathryn Hahn reading the telephone book would do it for me), Spider-Man: Freshman Year, and Blade are the only ones that really grab me.  And Daredevil.  FF and the Thunderbolts could easily fall flat.

  • What If...? Season 2 (Late December 2023)
  • X-Men '97 (Early 2024)
  • Echo (January 10, 2024)
  • Deadpool 3 (July 26, 2024)
  • Agatha: Darkhold Diaries (Fall 2024)
  • Spider-Man: Freshman Year (2024)
  • Captain America: Brave New World (February 14, 2025)
  • Fantastic Four (May 2, 2025)
  • Thunderbolts (July 25, 2025)
  • Blade (November 7, 2025)
  • Avengers: The Kang Dynasty (May 1, 2026)
  • Avengers: Secret Wars (May 7, 2027)
  • Live-Action Spider-Man Sequels (Dates TBD)
  • Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings 2 (Date TBD)
  • Armor Wars (Date TBD)
  • Ironheart (Date TBD)
  • Daredevil: Born Again (Date TBD)
  • Wonder Man (Date TBD)
  • Wakanda Series (Date TBD)
  • Marvel Zombies (Date TBD)
  • Vision Quest (Date TBD)

 

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Late to the game but I finally got around to watching Guardians 3 on D+. Damn that was so good.

I was kind of worried after the absolute train wreck that was Ant-Man Quantumania. Guardians 3 and No Way Home are by far the best post-Endgame movies.

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4 hours ago, ajax said:

I was kind of worried after the absolute train wreck that was Ant-Man Quantumania. Guardians 3 and No Way Home are by far the best post-Endgame movies.

Marvel’s issue is needing Ant-Man to do better than $500m to make a profit.  I agree with @atomheartbevo, they’ve got to find a way to lower the stakes from Endgame and still have a compelling cross-film background narrative.  

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They should’ve had a fresh start after Endgame with another universe. Start from scratch and build up to the next big baddie just like they did with Thanos. Even if you reuse some of the same characters, recasting is easier knowing it’s a different universe. You could even play with time periods.

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I feel like we're going to get a massive pivot away from the multiverse. Fantastic Four is the perfect point to start that and bring in Doom. 

The next movies and shows leading up to that will all be grounded on Earth. The FF will be the first movie to move things back outside of Earth. Fiege needs to figure it out though because the interest is definitely waning. 

We saw the Marvels last night. We enjoyed it. It was fun but definitely forgettable which feels like most of the post-Endgame movies. It's going to do really poorly though based both on reviews and early previews. I don't feel I'm spoiling anything by saying it doesn't touch the multiverse in the main story at all. 

 

except in the mid-credit which could be a nice pivot point as well to introduce a new franchise

Edited by mdmost
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40 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I still maintain they should go animated. The spider verse movies were excellent. Hell the recent TMNT movie was better than most of what Disney has put out recently.

They're doing that with some of the Disney+ content. X-Men 97 and Spiderman: The Freshman Years are both animated, in addition to another season of What If

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I'll admit, after a few years post-Endgame, my life has been too busy to get amped up for each new installment.  and dude, I looove Marvel.  

To me, they're taking everything too slowly, and they don't stay focused enough to develop much.  It's like they're giving alot of the old timers extended swan songs.  Which is wasteful.

I still feel if they went the cosmic route and pushed the Annihilation arc, opened up the negative zone to introduce the fantastic 4, surprise with Ultron, resurrect Thanos, oh man...  Or take post Spiderverse intro to bring in mutants, that would have worked too.  

But unfortunately, it's been a disorganized mess since Endgame.

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On 11/10/2023 at 3:27 PM, atomheartbevo said:

Looking at the list below, the only things that really interest me are What If?, X-Men '97, Echo, Deadpool, Agatha (Kathryn Hahn reading the telephone book would do it for me), Spider-Man: Freshman Year, and Blade are the only ones that really grab me.  And Daredevil.  FF and the Thunderbolts could easily fall flat.

  • What If...? Season 2 (Late December 2023)
  • X-Men '97 (Early 2024)
  • Echo (January 10, 2024)
  • Deadpool 3 (July 26, 2024)
  • Agatha: Darkhold Diaries (Fall 2024)
  • Spider-Man: Freshman Year (2024)
  • Captain America: Brave New World (February 14, 2025)
  • Fantastic Four (May 2, 2025)
  • Thunderbolts (July 25, 2025)
  • Blade (November 7, 2025)
  • Avengers: The Kang Dynasty (May 1, 2026)
  • Avengers: Secret Wars (May 7, 2027)
  • Live-Action Spider-Man Sequels (Dates TBD)
  • Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings 2 (Date TBD)
  • Armor Wars (Date TBD)
  • Ironheart (Date TBD)
  • Daredevil: Born Again (Date TBD)
  • Wonder Man (Date TBD)
  • Wakanda Series (Date TBD)
  • Marvel Zombies (Date TBD)
  • Vision Quest (Date TBD)

 

 

Yeah, average at best. Fuck your animated xmen, and most of that list. Blade, if done right, could be decent. As a half nerd, Avengers shit could be cool as long Superman Captain Marvel isn't part of it. Zero interest in most of the rest of it. Wonder Man, Marvel Zombies, xmen 97, etc etc can get bent

* and I'm a massive xmen fan. I actually loved First Class and Days of Future Past

 

 

21 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

They should have wrapped it up after Endgame (and Guardians of the Galaxy 3) and then transitioned full on into Spider-Man and X-Men as the new tent poles.  Those are still the more valuable franchises.  It’s just that Sony made meh to shitty movies with them, and Marvel/Disney made much better movies with the lesser celebrated characters, so those movies took off.  Instead of going deeper into comic book nerd land and multiverses for new characters and stories, they could have just redone all the stuff Sony screwed up with the major brands (like they are already doing with Spider-Man).  

Yep, hit Xmen hard 

 

5 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

I still maintain they should go animated. The spider verse movies were excellent. Hell the recent TMNT movie was better than most of what Disney has put out recently.

Fuck you dude. I'm a casual fan and I'll watch any Spiderverse movie, so you're right there, but fuck xmen 97. Let's not do this 

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17 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I think it’s telling that from all appearances, they made a decent movie.  They just can’t sell tickets for it.  

They have a machine that churns out competently-made movies, so it's not surprising.

My problem is that a lot of friends are burned out on Marvel, so if I'm going to the theater, I'm by myself (my son isn't caught up on the MCU and/or old enough for some stuff just yet, but another year and it'll be fine), and I really have no desire to do so, especially when I know they'll be on Disney+ within a year (I have a backlog of movies/shows as it is).

Speaking of backlogs, given that the Marvel shows are just sitting there on Disney+, I'm not in a rush to watch them.  Nothing in the MCU currently has the stakes or cultural cachet that Infinity War/Endgame had, where all my friends are going to be talking about it, and if I don't see it right away, then I'll get spoilers and be pissed.  She-Hulk took me a while to get through, same with Secret Invasion.  Ms, Marvel, Loki, Wandavision, those were shows that were quick watches and/or left me actually curious (well Wandavision, I got a thing for Olsen and Hahn so it could be the two of them reading the phone book and I'm in).  But even if I had been spoilered for those shows, it woudln't have bothered me versus say being spoiled for IW/Endgame.  Having some knowledge of the comics, there was not much that surprised me with the TV shows.

Same with Ant-Man and Guardians 3.  I knew they'd show up on Disney+, and while they had big events, they weren't like IW/EG.

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Marvel should really start making their movies more distinct. One of the reasons why Wandavision started out so popular was because of how different it was. Can you imagine if the Black Widow movie were an actual spy thriller?

I heard Nia Dacosta didn't really have control of the Marvels. Why even hire someone with such a unique vision if you're not going to let her make her movie?

I bet the reason Guardians 3 was so good is because Gunn has so much cache that he got to actually make his own movie.

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35 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

I agree. Kids and I just got back from watching it. Like the kid that plays Ms Marvel. Also had a different feel to it that I enjoyed. 

She’s fantastic. The Captain Marvel movies def give SLJ more room to be funny and he nails it 

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On 11/10/2023 at 4:45 PM, BeardIP said:

Wow this is bad. The already bad estimate was 80mm so this is nearly half:

‘The Marvels’ has the worst opening weekend ever for any MCU film at $47 million: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/12/the-marvels-worst-opening-weekend-box-office-for-marvel-cinematic-universe.html

I have read some of you guys who went and said it was a whimsical, fast movie that was not great or groundbreaking or cultural relevant, but just fun. The description of a movie like that can't have the expectations of making $250mm to be a success. That's a low budget movie description. That and having it be a female-centric superhero movie means a lot of young boys don't care, so not sure who the real audience for this was supposed to be. I guess it goes back to the criticisms longhormatt was saying; this movie was for deeper comic book fans and those who are really invested in the MCU versus more casual fans.

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^Yeah.  Phase I-III was a hell of a build up with great actors and big name character. There could have been audience fatigue, but abruptly going to the B-team of characters was going to hurt regardless. Right or wrong, a lot of people won’t give a shit about the girl power movies or shows with primarily female casts. Black Panther was doomed when the lead actor died. They need to run with Spiderman, do an awesome new version of X-men, and recast the main Avengers characters.

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30 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

^Yeah.  Phase I-III was a hell of a build up with great actors and big name character. There could have been audience fatigue, but abruptly going to the B-team of characters was going to hurt regardless. Right or wrong, a lot of people won’t give a shit about the girl power movies or shows with primarily female casts. Black Panther was doomed when the lead actor died. They need to run with Spiderman, do an awesome new version of X-men, and recast the main Avengers characters.

It’s funny you say black panther was doomed when Chadwick died but the article compared the BP sequel from last year with the Marvels (bot released in November) and the BP sequel easily doubled what the marvels did.

Quote

 

Many will be quick to point to “superhero fatigue,” and that the great comic book movies of the millennium are now seeing their grand demise, just like the big Hollywood musicals of the 1960s. 

No. 

Marvel die-hards are a devoted bunch, and when they know there’s a good movie on deck, they show up several times. Just a year ago, sequel Wakanda Forever: Black Panther scored an A, was in the Oscar mix with ultimately five noms (and a win), and opened to a massive $181.3M, and legged out to a near half-billion stateside and $859M worldwide.

 

 

Edited by BeardIP
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I think The Marvels performance is going to raise a lot of questions about how the MCU needs to proceed going forward. I just don't see any of the current franchises making people want to come out in droves outside of Spiderman. I enjoyed the Marvels but it felt a bit like something that probably should've just made its debut on Disney+. But for the type of money they're spending to get it made, that's not possible and those budgets are no longer sustainable. Blade is only get 100 million for its budget and that's more in line with what they need to do. But is Sam's Captain America movie going to draw out people to the theater? I doubt it. It would be in line with the Marvels where you would've had to watch the Bucky and Falcon show to know why he's Cap now. I think we're about to see a huge pause in all the movies and TV shows. Disney can't keep taking huge losses. I'm not sure what Disney is going to do if Wish isn't a success at the end of this month. Nothing is working for them. Maybe Inside Out 2 but I think Disney+ has destroyed the movie watching experience for Disney movies. 

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3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I have read some of you guys who went and said it was a whimsical, fast movie that was not great or groundbreaking or cultural relevant, but just fun. The description of a movie like that can't have the expectations of making $250mm to be a success. That's a low budget movie description. That and having it be a female-centric superhero movie means a lot of young boys don't care, so not sure who the real audience for this was supposed to be. I guess it goes back to the criticisms longhormatt was saying; this movie was for deeper comic book fans and those who are really invested in the MCU versus more casual fans.

Which is exactly the sort of film I'm looking to watch on Disney+ on a Friday night with my kid.

19 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I think The Marvels performance is going to raise a lot of questions about how the MCU needs to proceed going forward. I just don't see any of the current franchises making people want to come out in droves outside of Spiderman. I enjoyed the Marvels but it felt a bit like something that probably should've just made its debut on Disney+. But for the type of money they're spending to get it made, that's not possible and those budgets are no longer sustainable. Blade is only get 100 million for its budget and that's more in line with what they need to do. But is Sam's Captain America movie going to draw out people to the theater? I doubt it. It would be in line with the Marvels where you would've had to watch the Bucky and Falcon show to know why he's Cap now. I think we're about to see a huge pause in all the movies and TV shows. Disney can't keep taking huge losses. I'm not sure what Disney is going to do if Wish isn't a success at the end of this month. Nothing is working for them. Maybe Inside Out 2 but I think Disney+ has destroyed the movie watching experience for Disney movies. 

It really has.  Why spend cash to take your kids to the theatre when the film will drop on Disney+ in a few months?

The other issue they're likely to run into is a raft of cancellations when the no-ad price of Disney+ nearly doubles to $14/mo or $140/yr. 

Edited by Dutch
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36 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I think The Marvels performance is going to raise a lot of questions about how the MCU needs to proceed going forward. I just don't see any of the current franchises making people want to come out in droves outside of Spiderman. I enjoyed the Marvels but it felt a bit like something that probably should've just made its debut on Disney+. But for the type of money they're spending to get it made, that's not possible and those budgets are no longer sustainable. Blade is only get 100 million for its budget and that's more in line with what they need to do. But is Sam's Captain America movie going to draw out people to the theater? I doubt it. It would be in line with the Marvels where you would've had to watch the Bucky and Falcon show to know why he's Cap now. I think we're about to see a huge pause in all the movies and TV shows. Disney can't keep taking huge losses. I'm not sure what Disney is going to do if Wish isn't a success at the end of this month. Nothing is working for them. Maybe Inside Out 2 but I think Disney+ has destroyed the movie watching experience for Disney movies. 

Well, they are for sure going to be taking a break with the deluge of superhero content. From that same article:

Quote

 

Disney’s delay of the next phase of the MCU because of the actors’ strike — with Deadpool 3 being the only pic from the studio on the 2024 calendar, on July 26 — though an immediate curse for exhibition, is apt to be a blessing in the long run, as the studio concentrates on making better movies. Hopefully, absence will make fans’ hearts grow fonder.

How could you make a less-serious feature sequel to a $1.1 billion-grossing Wonder Woman movie that is, in effect, Marvel’s Wonder Woman: Captain Marvel? The latter movie is the highest-grossing female superhero movie of all-time, more than Wonder Woman ($823.9M WW). Yes, we all say to make superhero movies lighter and not darker. But in the case of The Marvels, it’s a 180-degree shift from the original movie’s heroic roots. The Marvels, instead, is some sort of time-jumping, silly comedy that fans weren’t asking for. It’s a swing that has greatly cost Marvel Studios the entire Captain Marvel franchise, relegating her now to a supporting character in the rest of the MCU.

But the whole actors strike of it all, right? Yes, that’s part of the problem here that has tied Disney’s hands from blasting this movie out more, and thespians’ being forbidden to promote struck work has diluted ticket sales greatly this autumn season.

But as one tracking source pushes back, “I can’t imagine that the complete absence of Brie Larson on The Marvels campaign tour has cost the sequel $106M in its opening from the first film. Surely, there’s something else going on.”

 

 

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I just don't think Fantastic Four is going to be something people are going to turn out in droves for like Spiderman or Deadpool. Too much CGI and the story has been done to death now. Yes, those versions sucked but the casting would just have to floor everyone and they already wasted one bullet with putting Reed Richards in a throwaway role in the DS2 movie. 

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They can roll out unknown characters and lesser known actors if they write good stories. Outside of comic nerds one knew who GotG or Deadpool were, and they weren’t jammed with a-list talent (Deadpool arguably propelled RR to a-list). Those movies were great.

There are decades and decades of comics out there, there must be some more good stories in them.

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20 hours ago, mdmost said:

I just don't think Fantastic Four is going to be something people are going to turn out in droves for like Spiderman or Deadpool. Too much CGI and the story has been done to death now. Yes, those versions sucked but the casting would just have to floor everyone and they already wasted one bullet with putting Reed Richards in a throwaway role in the DS2 movie. 

There is an obvious sex joke around Mr. Fantastic simply can't be waived away.  It just sits there and potentially turns every scene into a "That's what she said" farce. Plus the Thing looks stupid in Real life.  They are just a comic that's time has passed.  Kind of like how Strangers in a Strange Land was edgy and important in the early 60s, but reads very silly now (Groking). 

It's why the Incredibles is the definitive Fantastic Four. 

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On 11/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

Yeah, average at best. Fuck your animated xmen, and most of that list. Blade, if done right, could be decent. As a half nerd, Avengers shit could be cool as long Superman Captain Marvel isn't part of it. Zero interest in most of the rest of it. Wonder Man, Marvel Zombies, xmen 97, etc etc can get bent

* and I'm a massive xmen fan. I actually loved First Class and Days of Future Past

 

 

Yep, hit Xmen hard 

 

Fuck you dude. I'm a casual fan and I'll watch any Spiderverse movie, so you're right there, but fuck xmen 97. Let's not do this 

Obviously you didn't watch the X-Men series in the 90's. Shame on you, sir

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11 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I can see how teens might enjoy this movie because of one of the main characters. I am watching it right now. I am not connecting with this movie, but for the folks that are I think that’s cool.

Maybe if you got off your phone during a movie you might connect with it better

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5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Maybe if you got off your phone during a movie you might connect with it better

Knew it wouldn’t take long for that snark to appear. If I feel the need to look at my phone during a movie I know it is time to leave. Nothing drew me into the movie, but it does not mean others are not enjoying it.

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18 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Knew it wouldn’t take long for that snark to appear. If I feel the need to look at my phone during a movie I know it is time to leave. Nothing drew me into the movie, but it does not mean others are not enjoying it.

You're on your phone...at a movie theater. What kind of animal are you? Or you left the movie in the middle?

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I left with around 30 minutes or so left. There was two other people in the entire thing about 8 rows below me. When I go I always turn off the phone and focus on what I am watching. If I find myself not enjoying it I leave. Not the first nor the last time it’ll happen. Not every movie connects with every audience member, but again it does not mean this is not a nice movie.

I only pay 24 a month for that AMC pass so leaving for me (And I am sure others that have the pass) isn’t too big a deal. It doesn’t happen often. The last time was that Charlie Day movie where he can’t speak. There is no way anyone liked that movie.

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