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COVID-19 vaccine discussion


Texas Jeff

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3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

This is great news. It's criminal that nursing staff at skilled nursing facilities weren't required to be vaccinated. Don't like it? Don't care for other people's loved ones for a living.

While I do not disagree one bit, the end result here is going to be a shortage of nursing staff in facilities that are already pulling from the bottom of the barrel of the nursing pool. No offense intended to any of our nurse posters, but that's the reality.  You are not dealing with cream of the crop in many of these settings.  The broader impact on care and facility availability is going to be a bitch. 

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7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

While I do not disagree one bit, the end result here is going to be a shortage of nursing staff in facilities that are already pulling from the bottom of the barrel of the nursing pool. No offense intended to any of our nurse posters, but that's the reality.  You are not dealing with cream of the crop in many of these settings.  The broader impact on care and facility availability is going to be a bitch. 

The only people it would offend are the people you're talking about it, because it's 100% the truth. 

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

While I do not disagree one bit, the end result here is going to be a shortage of nursing staff in facilities that are already pulling from the bottom of the barrel of the nursing pool. No offense intended to any of our nurse posters, but that's the reality.  You are not dealing with cream of the crop in many of these settings.  The broader impact on care and facility availability is going to be a bitch. 

Oh I'm well aware that nursing home staff is shit (unless you have an unlimited budget). Travis Co is still trying to figure out how my dad passed so suddenly at his skilled nursing facility a month ago, and while he was still around, we only had an ever-growing list of issues with his care that """were being addressed""" no matter how much we followed up in the regular care meetings and (frequent) ad-hoc calls. Nevermind the absence of oversight from family members during the time of COVID visitation protocols. 

Maybe we shouldn't be using the cheapest and shittiest nurses for the most vulnerable of our population, but then that wouldn't be very profitable now would it. I'll take anything else on the topic to a more appropriate thread. 

Just so fucking tired of our medical resources being stretched to the brink in the name of MUH FREEDUM and profitability. 

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4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Oh I'm well aware that nursing home staff is shit (unless you have an unlimited budget). Travis Co is still trying to figure out how my dad passed so suddenly at his skilled nursing facility a month ago, and while he was still around, we only had an ever-growing list of issues with his care that """were being addressed""" no matter how much we followed up in the regular care meetings and (frequent) ad-hoc calls. Nevermind the absence of oversight from family members during the time of COVID visitation protocols. 

Maybe we shouldn't be using the cheapest and shittiest nurses for the most vulnerable of our population, but then that wouldn't be very profitable now would it. I'll take anything else on the topic to a more appropriate thread. 

Just so fucking tired of our medical resources being stretched to the brink in the name of MUH FREEDUM and profitability. 

I appreciate everything you are saying, and in particular the personal implications, but the impact of this particular policy is only going to make that situation even worse. 

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Got my 3rd Moderna shot today from a nearby Walgreens. My 2nd dose was late January. I’m technically immunocompromised due to an autoimmune condition and due to the immunosuppressant I take for it, although it’s not nearly as bad as having cancer or an organ transplant. I’m also a physician and see ~140 people a week, many of whom are elderly and many of whom are undoubtedly unvaccinated, so I figured it was a good time to get the 3rd shot and hopefully reduce my chances of getting or spreading Delta.

There were 4 other people there, all getting their first shot. It made me somewhat happy to see there is still a small trickle of people choosing the vaccine.

I wonder if part of the September 20 date for boosters was chosen to allow unvaccinated people ~1 month to finally get 1st and 2nd doses before there is a new rush of already vaccinated people getting 3rd doses.

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7 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

There were 4 other people there, all getting their first shot. It made me somewhat happy to see there is still a small trickle of people choosing the vaccine.

I wonder if part of the September 20 date for boosters was chosen to allow unvaccinated people ~1 month to finally get 1st and 2nd doses before there is a new rush of already vaccinated people getting 3rd doses.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's true, and I sincerely hope that it happens.  The slight upward trend in vaccinations over the past several weeks has obviously been a good thing, I just wish it were MORE. I know we all do.

 

 

Edited by utee94
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The crazy ass thing is that we talk a lot about the hard core anti vaxxers and they certainly exist in spades but most polls have pegged the “fuck that nope not ever going to do it dagnabit” group at about 15-20% of the population.

The rest are just mostly “yea I’m going to get it And will probably get around to it here soon” lazy ass procrastinating twats.

I mean say what you want about the tenets of anti-vaxxers Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

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My 16 yr old son is immunocompromised.  He was scheduled to get his 3rd Pfizer shot on Monday, but completely lost his sense of smell on Sunday.  So instead of getting the vax he got a COVID test instead.  Positive.  Damnit.
It has been mild so far, but what a stressful disruption to our lives.
Sorry to hear that. My house is taking every precaution for folks like you
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6 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

The crazy ass thing is that we talk a lot about the hard core anti vaxxers and they certainly exist in spades but most polls have pegged the “fuck that nope not ever going to do it dagnabit” group at about 15-20% of the population.

The rest are just mostly “yea I’m going to get it And will probably get around to it here soon” lazy ass procrastinating twats.

I mean say what you want about the tenets of anti-vaxxers Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

So you’re saying that the lazy ones are worse than the “fuck that” ones.

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15 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Let me preface: Please don't get mad, dumb question amnesty, as I'm not the smartest or most-informed guy in the world about this stuff and have honest questions.

If I am fully vaxxed with Pfizer. Is a booster simply just getting a third shot of the Pfizer (a repeat of the 2nd shot) or is the third shot booster a uniquely composed payload that is different from the first two?

I ask because I was hearing chatter about people going into cvs and lying about their vaccination history to get a booster (e.g. already have 2 shots but pretending to only have one to get their "second shot" which is in fact the third as a booster). Does it work that way or are people just being foolish?

I ask because I'd be interested in getting a 3rd shot booster at my 8 month and 1 day.

 

14 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Okay, so this just adds more questions and complexities to my pea brain. What the heck.

Are you supposed to proactively get a 3rd shot because a unique booster isn't ready yet? Is a unique booster coming and we should just wait and that is better?

What is the formal and published guidance on all this and where is it coming from and what is the cadence?

There are several standard vaccines that require more than one shot. To my knowledge all have the exact same dosage and product for both shots. The doc or pharmacy doesn’t have a separate inventory of Shot 1 vs 2. There are even some 3 shot vaccines with the same formulation.

There doesn’t seem to be a simple answer online why some vaccines work well with 1 shot and others 2+.  Or maybe the simple answers is that viruses are different from one another, so the vaccine schedule may be different for each virus.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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The Office Reaction GIF

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/18/alabama-doctor-unvaccinated-patients-valentine/

An Alabama doctor watched patients reject the coronavirus vaccine. Now he’s refusing to treat them.

In Alabama, where the nation’s lowest vaccination rate has helped push the state closer to a record number of hospitalizations, a physician has sent a clear message to his patients: Don’t come in for medical treatment if you are unvaccinated.

Jason Valentine, a physician at Diagnostic and Medical Clinic Infirmary Health in Mobile, Ala., posted a photo on Facebook this week of him pointing to a sign taped to a door informing patients of his new policy coming Oct. 1.

“Dr. Valentine will no longer see patients that are not vaccinated against covid-19,” the sign reads.

Valentine wrote in the post, which has since been made private but was captured in online images, that there were “no conspiracy theories, no excuses” stopping anyone from being vaccinated, AL.com reported. The doctor, who said at least three unvaccinated patients have asked him where they could get a vaccine since he posted the photo, has remained resolute to those who have questioned his decision in recent days.

“If they asked why, I told them covid is a miserable way to die and I can’t watch them die like that,” wrote Valentine, who has specialized in family medicine with Diagnostic and Medical Clinic since 2008...
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9 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

Got my 3rd Moderna shot today from a nearby Walgreens. My 2nd dose was late January. I’m technically immunocompromised due to an autoimmune condition and due to the immunosuppressant I take for it, although it’s not nearly as bad as having cancer or an organ transplant. I’m also a physician and see ~140 people a week, many of whom are elderly and many of whom are undoubtedly unvaccinated, so I figured it was a good time to get the 3rd shot and hopefully reduce my chances of getting or spreading Delta.

There were 4 other people there, all getting their first shot. It made me somewhat happy to see there is still a small trickle of people choosing the vaccine.

I wonder if part of the September 20 date for boosters was chosen to allow unvaccinated people ~1 month to finally get 1st and 2nd doses before there is a new rush of already vaccinated people getting 3rd doses.

I am on an immunosuppressant (Remicade) for an autoimmune condition as well!but it doesn’t qualify me (yet) for the booster. How did you get yours?  

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4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

I am on an immunosuppressant (Remicade) for an autoimmune condition as well!but it doesn’t qualify me (yet) for the booster. How did you get yours?  

Who the fuck told you you don’t meet criteria? You certainly do based on medication use. 

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14 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

The Office Reaction GIF

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/08/18/alabama-doctor-unvaccinated-patients-valentine/

An Alabama doctor watched patients reject the coronavirus vaccine. Now he’s refusing to treat them.

In Alabama, where the nation’s lowest vaccination rate has helped push the state closer to a record number of hospitalizations, a physician has sent a clear message to his patients: Don’t come in for medical treatment if you are unvaccinated.

Jason Valentine, a physician at Diagnostic and Medical Clinic Infirmary Health in Mobile, Ala., posted a photo on Facebook this week of him pointing to a sign taped to a door informing patients of his new policy coming Oct. 1.

“Dr. Valentine will no longer see patients that are not vaccinated against covid-19,” the sign reads.

Valentine wrote in the post, which has since been made private but was captured in online images, that there were “no conspiracy theories, no excuses” stopping anyone from being vaccinated, AL.com reported. The doctor, who said at least three unvaccinated patients have asked him where they could get a vaccine since he posted the photo, has remained resolute to those who have questioned his decision in recent days.

“If they asked why, I told them covid is a miserable way to die and I can’t watch them die like that,” wrote Valentine, who has specialized in family medicine with Diagnostic and Medical Clinic since 2008...

Nolan North Sip GIF by RETRO REPLAY

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8 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

The crazy ass thing is that we talk a lot about the hard core anti vaxxers and they certainly exist in spades but most polls have pegged the “fuck that nope not ever going to do it dagnabit” group at about 15-20% of the population.

The rest are just mostly “yea I’m going to get it And will probably get around to it here soon” lazy ass procrastinating twats.

I mean say what you want about the tenets of anti-vaxxers Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

The problem with the first group is that they spread propaganda as well as Covid.

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For @Sbbruin 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/immunocompromised-patients.html

Currently, CDC is recommending that moderately to severely immunocompromised people receive an additional dose. This includes people who have:

Active treatment for solid tumor and hematologic malignancies

Receipt of solid-organ transplant and taking immunosuppressive therapy

Receipt of CAR-T-cell or hematopoietic stem cell transplant (within 2 years of transplantation or taking immunosuppression therapy)

Moderate or severe primary immunodeficiency (e.g., DiGeorge syndrome, Wiskott-Aldrich syndrome)

Advanced or untreated HIV infection

Active treatment with high-dose corticosteroids (i.e., ≥20mg prednisone or equivalent per day), alkylating agents, antimetabolites, transplant-related immunosuppressive drugs, cancer chemotherapeutic agents classified as severely immunosuppressive, tumor-necrosis (TNF) blockers, and other biologic agents that are immunosuppressive or immunomodulatory.

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

For @Sbbruin 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/immunocompromised-patients.html

Currently, CDC is recommending that moderately to severely immunocompromised people receive an additional dose. This includes people who have:

Active treatment for solid tumor and hematologic malignancies

Receipt of solid-organ transplant and taking immunosuppressive therapy

Receipt of CAR-T-cell or hematopoietic stem cell transplant (within 2 years of transplantation or taking immunosuppression therapy)

Moderate or severe primary immunodeficiency (e.g., DiGeorge syndrome, Wiskott-Aldrich syndrome)

Advanced or untreated HIV infection

Active treatment with high-dose corticosteroids (i.e., ≥20mg prednisone or equivalent per day), alkylating agents, antimetabolites, transplant-related immunosuppressive drugs, cancer chemotherapeutic agents classified as severely immunosuppressive, tumor-necrosis (TNF) blockers, and other biologic agents that are immunosuppressive or immunomodulatory.

Ok, yes, remicade is a TNF blocker.  Will reach out to my rheumatologist to confirm

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It doesn’t matter that much. I walked into my Walgreens and they gave me a paper asking if I’m immunocompromised. It’s pretty loosely defined and I checked YES and got the shot. They don’t care what your condition is or what meds you take. They only care that you check YES on their paper.

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It doesn’t matter that much. I walked into my Walgreens and they gave me a paper asking if I’m immunocompromised. It’s pretty loosely defined and I checked YES and got the shot. They don’t care what your condition is or what meds you take. They only care that you check YES on their paper.

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I'm sure this question has been asked over the previous 137 pages, but I'm going to ask.  This is a real world example of mid 30's guy in my office who will not get the vax.

We all know hundreds of people who have had Covid and ranged from asymptomatic to flu like symptoms, i.e. not requiring hospitalization.

Has a study been done on people like that getting Covid for the second time and what are the odds that the second time required hospitalization or worse?

I'm not talking about antibodies remaining from the first case.  More about people who had Alpha, their bodies handled it just "fine."  My gut tells me those people probably have nothing to worry about (from a hospitalization standpoint) if they get Delta the 2nd time.  They've already had a test run and their bodies handled it just fine.  Will the second time be any different?  Has there been a study showing something different?

Obviously not everyone is motivated by the "greater good" to get the vaccination.  I never had Covid to my knowledge.  I got the vaccine for a number of family reasons but the selfish part was because I'm 44 and its possible that a 44 year old can die from this.  I have no idea how my body would react to Covid.  Would I be the freak case of a healthy guy that died?

But lots of people do know how their body reacts to Covid.  Like the guy I work with.  He had it and it wasn't bad.  He's not worried about the greater good.  So what's his motivation to get it, outside of punitive rules and laws?  

Strictly looking at his personal health, is he just as unlikely to avoid hospitalization and death as a vaccinated person?  Are there studies that show the 2nd time can be worse for someone like him?

Because if not, its a hard sell.  For a lot of people, we say "the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting Covid, but it greatly reduces hospitalizations and deaths."  Does a guy like this have an argument that he's already at that stage?

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47 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I'm sure this question has been asked over the previous 137 pages, but I'm going to ask.  This is a real world example of mid 30's guy in my office who will not get the vax.

We all know hundreds of people who have had Covid and ranged from asymptomatic to flu like symptoms, i.e. not requiring hospitalization.

Has a study been done on people like that getting Covid for the second time and what are the odds that the second time required hospitalization or worse?

I'm not talking about antibodies remaining from the first case.  More about people who had Alpha, their bodies handled it just "fine."  My gut tells me those people probably have nothing to worry about (from a hospitalization standpoint) if they get Delta the 2nd time.  They've already had a test run and their bodies handled it just fine.  Will the second time be any different?  Has there been a study showing something different?

Obviously not everyone is motivated by the "greater good" to get the vaccination.  I never had Covid to my knowledge.  I got the vaccine for a number of family reasons but the selfish part was because I'm 44 and its possible that a 44 year old can die from this.  I have no idea how my body would react to Covid.  Would I be the freak case of a healthy guy that died?

But lots of people do know how their body reacts to Covid.  Like the guy I work with.  He had it and it wasn't bad.  He's not worried about the greater good.  So what's his motivation to get it, outside of punitive rules and laws?  

Strictly looking at his personal health, is he just as unlikely to avoid hospitalization and death as a vaccinated person?  Are there studies that show the 2nd time can be worse for someone like him?

Because if not, its a hard sell.  For a lot of people, we say "the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting Covid, but it greatly reduces hospitalizations and deaths."  Does a guy like this have an argument that he's already at that stage?

Lots of evidence that shows that ~95% of ICU, Deaths and Hospitalizations stemming from Delta are among the unvaccinated. I would answer your friend in terms of the flu. I have had very mild cases of the flu where all I had was a light fever and some general aches/pains. I have also had a severe case of the flu that turned into pneumonia and put me in the ER where I thought I was a fucking goner.

There is not one "Covid" case. He also may already be past his antibodies from having Covid. My entire family had Covid last year. A number of months went by and we had an antibody test and only my older son still had them. Me, my wife (no pics), daughter (definitely no pics) and younger son had none.

Ultimately there is zero point trying to sway him as there isn't a logical argument you could offer that will cause him to get it. 

Ask if he has the chicken pox vaccine. CP only killed a year like 100-150 people or so. I wouldn't doubt he has that vaccine though. Does he have a tetanus vaccine? Only like 6 people a year die from this. etc etc etc There is a lot of shit we get vaccinated for that have very low transmission & mortality rates for, yet we still do it as a preventative measure. Why not just do this one?

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55 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I'm not talking about antibodies remaining from the first case.  More about people who had Alpha, their bodies handled it just "fine."  My gut tells me those people probably have nothing to worry about (from a hospitalization standpoint) if they get Delta the 2nd time.  They've already had a test run and their bodies handled it just fine.  Will the second time be any different?  Has there been a study showing something different?

Not sure about any studies but one of the important factors that impacts outcomes is the level of viral load.  Those who had significant exposures to the early versions of COVID (front line healthcare workers with repeated sustained exposure) often had the worst outcomes.  Delta appears to cause breakthrough infections because the viral load overcomes the antibodies (and/or T cells or whatever the memory cells are called) can't handle the amount of virus and get overwhelmed.  

So, my takeaway is that I don't think you can make any predictions about outcomes for those who are unvaxxed and recovered but become infected with Delta.

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Both my parents got their Moderna booster this morning.  I'm glad that's out of the way.  I've got a month to go officially, but if itblows up from school opening here in the next week or 2, I might go in early.

Edited by kevwun
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2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

I am on an immunosuppressant (Remicade) for an autoimmune condition as well!but it doesn’t qualify me (yet) for the booster. How did you get yours?  

Assuming you got your second shot at least 6 months ago . . .

1.  Go to CVS.com. 

2.  Make an appointment. 

3.  Click Yes when it asks you if you are immune compromised

4.  Go to CVS and get your booster shot (take your card with you)

5.  ?????

6.  Profit

/edit.  I'm sure Walgreen's is similar.  I just happened to use CVS this time.

Edited by dcbc
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3 minutes ago, BonzoMontreaux said:

For some reason my mind flashed to my old Student ID card that had stickers on it for each semester...

What kind of responsible student were you?  I lost mine multiple times so I only have a few semester stickers at a time.

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14 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Lots of evidence that shows that ~95% of ICU, Deaths and Hospitalizations stemming from Delta are among the unvaccinated.

I understand that.  And it isn't really unvaccinated vs. vaccinated.  That evidence is out there.  There is a difference.

I'm wondering if there is evidence on unvaccinated that had documented hospitalization-free Covid vs. Vaccinated.  Is there a difference?

12 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

So, my takeaway is that I don't think you can make any predictions about outcomes for those who are unvaxxed and recovered but become infected with Delta.

Maybe not, but there has to be some information out there.  Of all the hospitalizations, ICU, Vents, and deaths on the unvaccinated, what percentage of those had hospitalization free Covid previously?  If its a decent %, that's a selling point to those who say "I've already had it.  It wasn't a big deal."  

My gut tells me its probably pretty low or else it would be talked about.

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1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

I understand that.  And it isn't really unvaccinated vs. vaccinated.  That evidence is out there.  There is a difference.

I'm wondering if there is evidence on unvaccinated that had documented hospitalization-free Covid vs. Vaccinated.  Is there a difference?

Maybe not, but there has to be some information out there.  Of all the hospitalizations, ICU, Vents, and deaths on the unvaccinated, what percentage of those had hospitalization free Covid previously?  If its a decent %, that's a selling point to those who say "I've already had it.  It wasn't a big deal."  

My gut tells me its probably pretty low or else it would be talked about.

There was a CDC study a couple weeks ago that addressed this with the (limited) data that we've collected so far, here's the high points:

What is already known about this topic?

Reinfection with human coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has been documented. Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available.

What is added by this report?

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?

To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

Edited by Captainant
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