Jump to content

The Trial of Derek Chauvin


TexasHooch

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Red Five said:

I honestly don't think he was trying to kill him. But I don't think he really cared all that much if he did either, if that's a distinction that makes sense. 

I think the rubicon was crossed when he was informed by the crowd TELLING him that he was killing Floyd....and knowing that, Chauvin doubled down.  At that point, it changed from being reckless to intentional.  It didn't start out that way.  But it sure as shit ended that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

he's facing 3 charges:

  1.  2nd degree unintentional felony murder
  2.  3rd degree "depraved mind" murder
  3.  2nd degree manslaughter

 

i think it fits the definition of third degree murder in minnesota.  

Quote

Depraved mind murder (or depraved heart murder as it is sometimes referred to) is a type of third-degree murder in Minnesota. Minnesota’s statute for depraved mind murder reads, “whoever, without intent…causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life…” is guilty of depraved mind murder. ¹ Charging a person with depraved mind murder relies on the assumption that there are reckless acts so dangerous that a person should be charged with murder if another person dies while you are engaging in them.

Examples of depraved mind murder include violently driving an automobile ², the accidental discharge of a gun during a fight³, and Mohammed Noor’s widely publicized charge of shooting a woman while on duty as a police officer.

the other officers' testimonies saying the knee on neck isn't part of their training should be sufficient to classify it as a reckless act.

 

 

that white girl chop shooting duane wright, that's 2nd degree manslaughter.  

Quote

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another;

 

  • Hook 'Em 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

he's facing 3 charges:

  1.  2nd degree unintentional felony murder
  2.  3rd degree "depraved mind" murder
  3.  2nd degree manslaughter

 

i think it fits the definition of third degree murder in minnesota.  

the other officers' testimonies saying the knee on neck isn't part of their training should be sufficient to classify it as a reckless act.

 

 

that white girl chop shooting duane wright, that's 2nd degree manslaughter.  

 

Good take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

he's facing 3 charges:

  1.  2nd degree unintentional felony murder
  2.  3rd degree "depraved mind" murder
  3.  2nd degree manslaughter

 

i think it fits the definition of third degree murder in minnesota.  

the other officers' testimonies saying the knee on neck isn't part of their training should be sufficient to classify it as a reckless act.

 

 

that white girl chop shooting duane wright, that's 2nd degree manslaughter.  

 

 

So if most of the jury is agreeing on 2nd degree murder, and one hold out is saying 2nd degree manslaughter, is that a hung jury, or is he guilty of the lesser charge?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, GopherRock said:

Defense rests.

Dr Tobin back on the stand, and the State did some serious tap-dancing to not end in an immediate mistrial. 

I just hit this point.  My heart is going 1000 bpm.  He had to avoid one thing and it seemed like he was going to say it.  

Edited by JBJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
So if most of the jury is agreeing on 2nd degree murder, and one hold out is saying 2nd degree manslaughter, is that a hung jury, or is he guilty of the lesser charge?
 
Not a lawyer, but I believe usually the jurors would all agree to the lesser charge. If for whatever reason one of those who voted guilty for 2nd degree murder voted not guilty for manslaughter and continued to vote not guilty it would result in a hung jury.
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, gsoda3 said:
7 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:
 
So if most of the jury is agreeing on 2nd degree murder, and one hold out is saying 2nd degree manslaughter, is that a hung jury, or is he guilty of the lesser charge?
 

Not a lawyer, but I believe usually the jurors would all agree to the lesser charge. If for whatever reason one of those who voted guilty for 2nd degree murder voted not guilty for manslaughter and continued to vote not guilty it would result in a hung jury.

It is a hung jury if they can't render a verdict on all 3 charges even if they all agree on manslaughter.

That doesn't necessarily mean they all agree, but I think that's what the question meant.

Edited by JBJ
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I think the rubicon was crossed when he was informed by the crowd TELLING him that he was killing Floyd....and knowing that, Chauvin doubled down.  At that point, it changed from being reckless to intentional.  It didn't start out that way.  But it sure as shit ended that way.

The only thing that makes me disagree with this is the fact that he also knew he was being videotaped. Just doesn't make sense to me

  • Fuck You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whats ghoulish is how many different ways Chauvin killed GF:

1) As a result of excessive force after GF was handcuffed and facedown on the ground while the cops were on top of him. Beyond scope of duty.

2) Literally choking the life out of him to make him lose consciousness.

3) Throw in accidental given GF’s pre-existing health issues and potential OD

4) Continuing to crush him while he was unconscious

5) Continuing to crush him post-mortem (is this right?)

6) Preventing or delaying aid from being rendered for a distressed suspect in custody

7) Not rendering aid for distressed suspect in custody

Its hard to keep track. What am I missing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2021 at 2:03 PM, gsoda3 said:

he's facing 3 charges:

  1.  2nd degree unintentional felony murder
  2.  3rd degree "depraved mind" murder
  3.  2nd degree manslaughter

 

i think it fits the definition of third degree murder in minnesota.  

the other officers' testimonies saying the knee on neck isn't part of their training should be sufficient to classify it as a reckless act.

 

 

that white girl chop shooting duane wright, that's 2nd degree manslaughter.  

 

Go back and forth on the depraved heart. Typically that comes from doing a wildly dangerous act (firing into a crowd, driving like a total lunatic etc) where collateral damage is really likely to happen. It just doesn’t feel like it fits in this situation with the examples of why the statute is typically applied- when it’s a knee to the person who does indeed die. I’d like to see if this type of thing has ever been used to convict of depraved heart murder- that’s not how that statute is taught in law school or on law and order. 
Have zero idea what to do with taser/gun lady. That one seems to me to fall under cops are incredibly shitty at when to use tasers. My understanding is that they are only supposed to be used when a situation would allow you to use a gun. So maybe that case ignores use of gun accidentally instead of taser. 
No idea how that gets handled. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, GopherRock said:

Charge conference going on right now on the streams. IIRC this is the part where the attorneys hash out the jury instructions. I think the judge may have been expecting a lot of detail work on this, hence why he sent the jury home when defense was done.

I would have to think so. If the jury didn’t come into this case with their mind made up one way or another I’d posit that the jury instructions are the most important thing that happens in this entire case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2021 at 1:23 PM, Lobo said:

The thread vibe is that the cop is toast.  35% of the adult U.S. population says the cop is a hero and black people should learn to obey better.  

Thankfully, the U.S. Judicial System is a hint more pragmatic.  He'll get convicted of a lesser charge and likely do every day of the sentence.  

I always thought this thing felt like manslaughter being the likely endpoint  of not murder (he didn’t mean to do it) vs got to punish this behavior from a cop. 
Will be interested to see the result. I will find it sickening if he walks completely and would also be incredibly surprised by that result. I think it’s probably manslaughter. I haven’t followed enough to feel strongly about whether the jury can/should/will go for second murder. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I would have to think so. If the jury didn’t come into this case with their mind made up one way or another I’d posit that the jury instructions are the most important thing that happens in this entire case. 

Yeah, like to see how they deal with the 3rd degree "eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind" part.

NAL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, JBJ said:

It is a hung jury if they can't render a verdict on all 3 charges even if they all agree on manslaughter.

That doesn't necessarily mean they all agree, but I think that's what the question meant.

If the jury is unanimous as to one of the lesser included charges, then you have a proper verdict for that charge, regardless of the split/ unanimity for the higher charges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

My understanding is that they are only supposed to be used when a situation would allow you to use a gun. So maybe that case ignores use of gun accidentally instead of taser. 
No idea how that gets handled. 

Not a cop but I think allowable use of tazer is much more expansive than gun. I mean nobody seemed to blink when she was yelling tazer, but they all went holy shit when they realized she had shot a gun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Not a cat said:

Not a cop but I think allowable use of tazer is much more expansive than gun. I mean nobody seemed to blink when she was yelling tazer, but they all went holy shit when they realized she had shot a gun.

I e read before that they are trained to only use the taser in a situation where it would be allowable to use the gun. I know that’s not how it operates in reality but my understanding is that that is their training. It was a long time ago I read that- maybe I’m wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/15/2021 at 3:00 PM, WhatTheBuck said:

If Chauvin is acquitted, maybe there will be less damage from the resulting riots if the verdict comes out on Monday rather than just before the weekend. 

Gqp/ it's not like they have jobs/ Gqp

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really hate the depraved heart/mind statutes. That word just has too much connotation, and I think people are reluctant to apply it to certain defendants, particularly cops.

I think there’s also still a question about whether it’s even applicable since there’s debate about the definition of “others” (eminently dangerous to others). I.e., does the use of the plural mean it has to be a non-specific group of people? Or can it apply to a specific, singular “other” person.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/16/2021 at 11:41 PM, UT_OB1 said:

Didn’t see it.  Can you explain in non lawyery terms?

The State was given a carbon monoxide blood test but not in time to disclose to the defense.  The state tried to get the judge to enter it into evidence in discussions that morning, but the judge made it thouroughly clear that wasn't going to happen and that any witness mentioning that one exists would force a mistrial.

First real question they ask the witness, he mentions the blood test panel (without really mentioning the carbon monoxide test specifically or levels).  The judge calls for a sidebar, and that's all we know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The State was given a carbon monoxide blood test but not in time to disclose to the defense.  The state tried to get the judge to enter it into evidence in discussions that morning, but the judge made it thouroughly clear that wasn't going to happen and that any witness mentioning that one exists would force a mistrial.

First real question they ask the witness, he mentions the blood test panel (without really mentioning the carbon monoxide test specifically or levels).  The judge calls for a sidebar, and that's all we know.

After the sidebar, the questioning seemed to focus on another blood test that was already in evidence. Gist of the rebuttal testimony was 

Today is it. Jury instructions, then closing arguments. After that, it's as long as it takes for the jury to reach a verdict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/16/2021 at 2:35 PM, Wulaw Horn said:

Go back and forth on the depraved heart. Typically that comes from doing a wildly dangerous act (firing into a crowd, driving like a total lunatic etc) where collateral damage is really likely to happen. It just doesn’t feel like it fits in this situation with the examples of why the statute is typically applied- when it’s a knee to the person who does indeed die. I’d like to see if this type of thing has ever been used to convict of depraved heart murder- that’s not how that statute is taught in law school or on law and order. 
Have zero idea what to do with taser/gun lady. That one seems to me to fall under cops are incredibly shitty at when to use tasers. My understanding is that they are only supposed to be used when a situation would allow you to use a gun. So maybe that case ignores use of gun accidentally instead of taser. 
No idea how that gets handled. 

That was actually the subject of the appeal.  The question was whether "depraved heart" required an action that was gravely reckless to "the public at large" versus the victim.  Believing it to be the former, the judge had excluded that charge before trial.  The court of appeals held it to include just the victim in another case and there was a question whether that decision was sufficiently final to merit putting it back in this case.

Edit to add: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minnesota-supreme-court-rejects-derek-chauvin-appeal-opening-door-for-another-murder-charge-in-george-floyd-s-death/ar-BB1esz7Y

And it looks like the MN Supreme Court declined to review the appeals court decision in question, making the charge fairly undoubtedly appropriate.

Edited by TwiceHorn
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

I really hate the depraved heart/mind statutes. That word just has too much connotation, and I think people are reluctant to apply it to certain defendants, particularly cops.

I think there’s also still a question about whether it’s even applicable since there’s debate about the definition of “others” (eminently dangerous to others). I.e., does the use of the plural mean it has to be a non-specific group of people? Or can it apply to a specific, singular “other” person.

Agreed, it has a connotation different from its actual meaning.  Just say recklessly, or grossly negligently, or something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That was actually the subject of the appeal.  The question was whether "depraved heart" required an action that was gravely reckless to "the public at large" versus the victim.  Believing it to be the former, the judge had excluded that charge before trial.  The court of appeals held it to include just the victim in another case and there was a question whether that decision was sufficiently final to merit putting it back in this case.

Edit to add: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minnesota-supreme-court-rejects-derek-chauvin-appeal-opening-door-for-another-murder-charge-in-george-floyd-s-death/ar-BB1esz7Y

And it looks like the MN Supreme Court declined to review the appeals court decision in question, making the charge fairly undoubtedly appropriate.

So one other instance in Mn- I guess that means this is a statute that would apply in an instance like this maybe a couple dozen times ever?  That’s a thin reed to my way of thinking, but ok, not totally unprecedented. 
thanks for the link man. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

So one other instance in Mn- I guess that means this is a statute that would apply in an instance like this maybe a couple dozen times ever?  That’s a thin reed to my way of thinking, but ok, not totally unprecedented. 
thanks for the link man. 

It's a goofy-ass interpretation, if you ask me, especially since the statute itself says "eminently dangerous to others," which seems to render nugatory the depraved mind lingo.

Haha.  Nugatory.  I have practiced the law for nearly 30 years without using that word.  Why not on the shag?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Xian said:

I just heard on the radio that there is a chance of a mistrial due to witness tampering (dead pig head left at house). Is that realistic?  
 

what a shitshow. 

I definitely would not want to be sitting on that jury.  I would think appeal is highly likely given all that's going on.  You've got mob like scenes with elected officials making this a pressure cooker situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...