Joe Biden 2023: The Dark Brandon Rises

[Macanudo 12917]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

I hope not. Seeing hourlies finally make gains after decades of stagnation has been the most heartening part of this past year.

Definitely not.  Some of the jobs I have applied to have been hourly.   I'm not above clocking in/out.   A paycheck is a paycheck.

[G650 13847]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Dare I say, even, self-centered

 

You don't say

 

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

You vote for the best thing for your life.

 

Which may not be something as selfish and immediate.

 

I consider anyone that votes for the President on kitchen table issues to be barely sentient.

[jimmyjazz 45429]

My dad used to say that POTUS should be elected on his foreign policy prowess above all else.

['stache 21729]

I don't think most workers are seeing drastic increases in pay. It goes back to wealth disparity which is still a huge problem and something in which we should look backwards to "make America great again." Back when a high school diploma could get you a good 8-5 job with enough pay to support a family, buy a home, a few cars, and still have enough left over for a big vacation every year or so. Even if pay increases people today are being squeezed for every dollar for housing, healthcare, and education. We vacation on credit cards. A high marginal top end rate and taxes on wealth and inheritance would go a long way to helping every day people. To me, that's the big difference between the Republican and Democratic party. Republicans are dominated by the far right wing which is now full blown facist theocrats. Democrats are still mostly centrists who aren't willing to go as far as the far left flank wants. The young people who are being screwed in this system are getting frustrated and are possibly going to sit out elections (hence Trump, etc.). They also now are largely saying thinks like they are against or anti-capitalism. They really aren't, it's just that the excesses of capitalism have taken over and huge swaths of people, young people in particular, are being left behind. Well regulated capitalism is about where most people would lie on the spectrum, but all we ever hear is the extreme right and left views. It's infuriating to me as I consider well-regulated capitalism as a centrist position that both parties should be able to agree upon with the devil in the details (where do we set the rate, what exceptions are we going to include, etc.). 

[jimmyjazz 45429]

2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

No doubt a reflection of his era (assuming WWII or WWII adjacent) along with Cold War existentialism?

Yes, born 1922, served briefly in the Navy at Annapolis in officer training during WWII before getting discharged 4F for asthma.  Rather than return to grad school he joined Curtis Wright to design wing struts for fighter/bombers.  Eventually finished his doctorate and taught civil engineering for decades.

[G650 13847]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

My dad used to say that POTUS should be elected on his foreign policy prowess above all else.

 

Your pops is verbatim what I say as well.

[G650 13847]

2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

overly judgmental and close-minded IMO.

 

Or, bear with me here, having at least a 3rd grade understanding of how our government functions.

[jimmyjazz 45429]

I can't speak for my dad, but I can only assume his thinking was that the "kitchen table" stuff back home would be handled by Congress, local government, and (increasingly) the courts.  POTUS is the face of the country and drives foreign policy.

[G650 13847]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

just the disdain you have shown for people who prioritize domestic issues that are personal to them is.

 

I disdain the shit out of them, 100%

 

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

I can't speak for my dad, but I can only assume his thinking was that the "kitchen table" stuff back home would be handled by Congress, local government, and (increasingly) the courts.  POTUS is the face of the country and drives foreign policy.

 

Precisely. And foreign policy is the only thing the executive can truly control. Everything they do domestically is nibbling around the edges. Congress ultimately controls that.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I disdain the shit out of them, 100%

 

 

Precisely. And foreign policy is the only thing the executive can truly control. Everything they do domestically is nibbling around the edges. Congress ultimately controls that.

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed. Add in SCOTUS nominations and it's pretty damn important domestically. Much more than just nibbling around the edges.

Edited December 15, 2023 by FirstTimeCaller

[G650 13847]

6 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed.

 

Certainly, but that retards policy, it doesn't advance it. The only way to advance policy is to pass legislation.

 

6 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Okay, fair enough.

Then I'll ask again,

How do you reconcile "the far right are idiots and actively vote against their own self interests and things that would selfishly help them" (of which I agree with and think is a good legitimate criticism) with your stance that...people shouldn't vote for their self interests and things that would selfishly help them, but rather the best foreign policy operator?

 

Do you really need me to answer the difference between working class people who would benefit from government policy and selfish emotionally stunted suburbanite upper middles who are mad they had to spend a little more on gas to tote around little Kayden and Preslee to their activities

Edited December 15, 2023 by G650

[G650 13847]

2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

who do you think are the ones that a) are the college educated who generally vote for centric/sane/Biden and b) the same people who are grumbling and complaining with "the economy" and how it doesn't feel so great.

 

You should go read the CNBC article I posted.

[StassneyHorn 6515]

4 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Don’t worry, the caravans will be on their way by midsummer.

I think these actually start in February to beat the heat

[Nice Guy Eddie 13388]

There are definitely people who are hurting in this economy. And guess what, they are people that are hurting in every economy, whether it's an overall positive or negative. Like usual, the people who are hurting the most are those that have limited skills, skills that are not in demand and/or they're in an industry/company that are having difficulties. There's also a category of unlucky people who find themselves unemployed for whatever reasons, some are which are out of their control.

[elfenix 34161]

I think these actually start in February to beat the heat

Yep. Not around in winter because the desert gets cold. Not around in summer because the desert gets hot. Spring and fall is when you see most migration.

[The Royal We 3059]

The disconnect between actual economic performance and how the economy FEELS to people is so confounding. Even among people on this thread who would probably say Biden has done a pretty good job with the economy. I guess everyone is just beaten down into a pulp by everyone around them constantly moaning about how shitty things really are? I certainly get that in my day to day, but I live in deep east Texas and am generally surrounded by people that I disagree with about pretty much everything related to current events/politics/economics, etc.

Just a few:

Higher than it's ever been, save the massive Covid stimulus.

Wages for people at the bottom are increasing faster than for people at the top.

How is the US doing against our peers?

The price of eggs peaked in JAN of 2023.

I'm not even an amateur economist, but it's hard to understand how the objective reality of the economy is so different than people's perception of it. Unless all the numbers are just made up and it's all a big conspiracy to trick people into thinking things are going okay under old Joey Two Scoops!

 

 

[jimmyjazz 45429]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

Do you really need me to answer the difference between working class people who would benefit from government policy and selfish emotionally stunted suburbanite upper middles who are mad they had to spend a little more on gas to tote around little Kayden and Preslee to their activities

Preslee's cool, but Kayden is an asshole.

[atomheartbevo 89304]

56 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Just read it, I think it echoes a lot of the points I was making. I specifically resonated with the quote: 

"The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy."

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

But we are so large now as a country and so disassociated with each other generally, that it harkens back to a selfish "I feel like this sucks, so it must suck" mentality of perception being reality, despite what is objectively reality.

I don't think we really are disassociated with each other generally and that's the problem.  If you are a Republican, you are inundated with emails and social media posts from campaigns, bots, your own friends and family, telling you that even if you are doing relatively well, that's impossible because a Democrat is in the White House.  If you're a Republican/MAGA type, you are constantly pressured by campaigns and family/friends to like and share this or that post on social media, regardless of the accuracy of it.

I haven't been a Republican or campaigned for any of them in 20 years, but I've still got the same email and phone number, and my junk folder is full of Republican spam telling me how bad everything is, and that Biden is going to take one of my children and drink their blood and Pete is going to take my gas-burning car and Kamala is about to empty out my bank account and give it to somebody else, and my text messages are all about STOPPING THE DEMOCRATS without telling me why they need to be stopped.  It's a lot of "vote for us because Dems bad" not "vote for us because we have your best interests at heart and here's 5 examples!"

Since going independent (after my libertarian phase), I rarely had anything to do with the GOP but I still get their stuff 20 years later.  As far as Democrats in terms of that kind of stuff, I have occasionally donated or been put on mailing lists, and so obviously I get far fewer emails/text messages, but the emails and text messages I get are far different than the Republican stuff.  Most of them are telling me more about why I should vote for the Democrat than vote against the Republican, but the ones that attack Republicans are usually detailed and point to specific reasons that I can research on my own, and not spouting dumb conspiracy bullshit.

Your typical MAGA type does not have the critical thinking skills to evaluate the liked and shared stuff they are inundated with, or they don't want to disagree/rock the boat, because MAGA can turn on MAGA in a heartbeat, for not being MAGA enough.

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Unless of course you quit your job and give yourself a raise with a new job, but even in the "good economy" of the last 12 months, big companies and good jobs were laying people off and not as easy to find during the COVID years.

Totally depends on the industry.  Tech couldn’t hire fast enough during COVID while oil and gas jobs were non-existent.  It’s 180 degrees different today.

[Incredulity 11441]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed. Add in SCOTUS nominations and it's pretty damn important domestically. Much more than just nibbling around the edges.

appointing all the heads of the bureaucracies as well.  regardless of if you agree with current appointees or not, FTC runs a shitload different under Lina Kahn than it did under formerly, Gensler......etc

[atomheartbevo 89304]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

Keep in mind that while the like/share stuff has been around since our uncles were sending us email chains in the 90s or early 2000s, it's really only been weaponized in the past 7-8 years or so, and it's narrowly targeted, and it's usually a true campaign.  I've got MAGA relatives that will post stuff on Facebook or whatever, and within a minute or two, I can find the origins and see that it's a push by some Republican politician or talking head.  They'll have their soundbites out with some statistic or some photos or video, and then it's automatically pushed out to everybody who follows them or is on their email lists or whatever, and those people are passing it around, sounding panicked or whatever.

Take the border stuff for instance - the same shit that is happening now, happened under Trump, and Obama and Bush (although Bush pitched a guest-worker program) and Clinton.  Here in Texas, it's beaten into peoples' heads that it's a Democrat problem, even though Republicans have held power for decades.  Somebody mentions a caravan or drugs, and a bunch of MAGA types who scare easily freak out, and they start getting that confirmation bias dopamine hit, and they start trying to rile up the less-easily-scared types, and wash, rinse, repeat.  Same with the economy.

[Captainant 27250]

6 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

You're so close to describing the massive inequality of wealth we see today. Sure the COVID recovery has been good, but wage earners are basically back to where they were before (which is not great) while the investment class has been reaping massive gains and buying up housing to turn around to rent to the wage earners at inflated prices. Companies are going gangbusters, but flesh and blood people aren't getting any of that trickle down action.

[jimmyjazz 45429]

39 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

Consumer Confidence Index doesn't really reflect this pessimism all that much.  I think it's important to question what consumers are actually voicing this "deep economic pessimism".  (hint:  it's MAGAts)

[Captainant 27250]

15 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

The Rich get richer and the poor are doing better and being lifted out of poverty into poverty lite aka lower middle class, and the middle class is the Atlas that dare not shrug, lest the whole thing fall apart. 

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth

Edited December 15, 2023 by Captainant

[chainsaw 9811]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

Thats why unions and socialism have become more appealing to people 10+ years out of college. Millennials never had a chance in the economy the Boomers and Gen Xers left behind. Gen Z even less so.

[chainsaw 9811]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

And yea, I agree with you. The middle is crumbling, those that are left in the middle are getting squeezed, and the rich get richer. It's no wonder that the middle are upset despite the economy being good.

The wealthy are making exponential gains in investment and savings vehicles, the poor are getting 100% pay raises in some instances going from minimum wage to $15-20+/hour and the middle/upper middle gets nothing unless they have an already robust 401k and/or bought a cheap house that's now worth 5x.

Oh we also get the cold consolation of having other people tell us to shut up and just enjoy the pie charts and graphs because that means good things and the condescension for saying, "but wait, I'm not feeling any of these marginal gains though, but yay? Can I get some of the goodness too?"

It's like having the top recruiting class of all time and going 7-5

[elfenix 34161]

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?
That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.
EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth

Your link is "real household income", real meaning "adjusted for inflation"


Edit: interesting that I quoted the post in tapa before it was edited, and then when I hit post it brought in the edited post.

[Captainant 27250]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?
That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.
EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth

Your link is "real household income", real meaning "adjusted for inflation"

Yeah I derped on the post and left the edit for that reason. But wages are not growing at the rate of the US economy - real GDP per capital (so no bamboozles, link) has grown from $50k/pp $67k/pp - that's a 34% growth. Wages ain't growing like the economy is - but the wealth of our oligarch class IS growing proportionally to the US economy.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Consumer Confidence Index doesn't really reflect this pessimism all that much.  I think it's important to question what consumers are actually voicing this "deep economic pessimism".  (hint:  it's MAGAts)

Just a reminder that The Onion has been gold for a loooooong time.

https://www.theonion.com/consumer-confidence-verging-on-cockiness-1819586917

[mchookem 15879]

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

Shut up, lib.

[elfenix 34161]

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 
just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy
congratulations! lol

Negged.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13388]

I feel for people that are not succeeding financially in this world and no apparent entry ramp on the success freeway. Many of them look to the govt, both parties, for help but it's not that simple. The govt obviously help to encourage some industries and there are govt jobs, but not enough for everyone to be successful.

While private industry creates new jobs, it's usually more about destroying inefficient jobs and companies. New Company B takes over as the market leader from Old Company A, there is a good chance that fewer total people work for the combined companies.

Dems have their flaws but at least I see them with a positive ideas. The right seems more about protectionism and more oil drilling. Those deserve a place at the table but it isn't the future.

[ChiTownDoc 21071]

23 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

...

Dems have their flaws but at least I see them with a positive ideas. The right seems more about protectionism and more oil drilling. Those deserve a place at the table but it isn't the future.

When you just pull out the table cloth and piss all over what ends up broken on the ground, you don't even deserve a seat at the table.  That's where I'm at with today's R party.  Fuck them.  Fight fire with fire. 

[G650 13847]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Gen Xers left behind.

Come again

[Longhorn_Fan68 33779]

4 minutes ago, G650 said:

Come again

GenX was the first generation who did not do better than their parents (at least in any era any of us have been alive). That is sorta the definition of left behind

[G650 13847]

1 minute ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

GenX was the first generation who did not do better than their parents (at least in any era any of us have been alive). That is sorta the definition of left behind

Yeah I know, that's my point

[chainsaw 9811]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah I know, that's my point

I can't speak for everyone, but Millennials and Gen Z view Gen X as complicit in allowing Boomers to dictate the terms of the economy and post-2000 politics. Is it fair? Thats not for me to say. But ask a Zoomer what they think of Gen Xers.

[hobbes2702 12769]

6 hours ago, Incredulity said:

He is referring to paycheck to paycheck income and contrasting that with ballooning weekly household expenses.

To take it a step further I have long said that direct deposit of paychecks is great cover for tax policies.  No one really knows their paycheck gross.  The know their "annual compensation" and their deposit amount, but not the gross paycheck amount before taxes.

Who doesn’t know what their income is before tax?

[atomheartbevo 89304]

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I can't speak for everyone, but Millennials and Gen Z view Gen X as complicit in allowing Boomers to dictate the terms of the economy and post-2000 politics. Is it fair? Thats not for me to say. But ask a Zoomer what they think of Gen Xers.

Well....

[jimmyjazz 45429]

17 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Who doesn’t know what their income is before tax?

I think salaried employees probably know more than hourly employees -- for one thing, income tends to float about more for hourly employees.

[Biff Tannen 45439]

17 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Well....

You’re not important enough to remember!

[G650 13847]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

You’re not important enough to remember!

Exactly

[StassneyHorn 6515]

I felt like Chris Hayes ran the inflation thread and the Joe Biden thread pages through ChatGPT and got his segment last night. 15 minutes long, but hey it’s Friday and workswithseed (RIP) would have given you a cartoon podcaster
 

Hits on the hysterics of muh eggs and recession ruhcession resesshun, bottom half improvements with wage gains and increasing union membership and more.

 

[Covri 6225]

We’re not in a recession and our economy is doing well overall, but anyone trying to argue that the price of groceries haven’t gone up the last two years at a higher rate than overall inflation is lying to themselves. The average price of grocery items are up anywhere from 10%-30%. Yes people can still buy them especially people at the median income level and above, but it’s still noticeable. Corporate greed is behind it, not the government, but it still exists.  And grocery bills going up is something all people notice. 

[NWBuck 8536]

16 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I wouldn't advocate eating the better part of a dozen eggs every day, but if you're THAT poor, you could do worse.

[Thatguy 8393]

12 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Consumer Confidence Index doesn't really reflect this pessimism all that much.  I think it's important to question what consumers are actually voicing this "deep economic pessimism".  (hint:  it's MAGAts)

 

No it's not. Maybe I am off on what you are saying, but are you saying that MAGAts are the ones with deep economic pessimism? If you are then I say you need to hit the streets more. My father-in-law likes to dump their unwanted items on us. I am currently in possession of a 20 year old Suburban that they dropped off on our doorstep(my wife will never say no to her dad). Since they bought it brand new I have the original sticker for it. Fully loaded for its time. 46k sticker. Right now a 24 High Country Burban is 92k, and that's not even 4x4 or 3/4 ton like my old Burban is. Literally doubled in price in 20 years. Incomes haven't doubled in that time frame.

Most of us here are olds. We own our houses, have solid wages, and thus are somewhat disconnected with the poors. However, the younger crowd is really feeling it. I own a house where the going rent rate is double what the mortgage is. Google a decent 2bdroom apt. 2k+ in the Houston area. My daughter is 15, young for my age, but talking to people my age I know who's kids have long since left the nest, they are a couple years out of college and still on the payroll.

 

https://www.fredechevrolet.com/VehicleDetails/new-2024-Chevrolet-Suburban-2WD_High_Country-HOUSTON-TX/5732796150

[StassneyHorn 6515]

My income has tripled since 2012

25 year olds “on the payroll” aren’t buying fully loaded suburbans

Googling 2 bedroom apartments under $2,000 returns 13,340 results in Houston

https://www.apartments.com/houston-tx/2-bedrooms-under-2000/?bb=tw4om4q6-Iyk9zvxd
 

 

[Fastbreak 3935]

Minimum wage is the exact same as in 2012. It hasn’t increased a penny.

[TwiceHorn 31085]

19 hours ago, BeardIP said:

No doubt a reflection of his era (assuming WWII or WWII adjacent) along with Cold War existentialism?

Not just a product of the times.  It actually reflects a pretty solid understanding of presidential power.

According to the text of the Constitution, at Article II, the express/explicit powers of the President are highest and most exclusive in the realm of foreign policy and national security (treaty power, commander in chief, etc.). 

Of course, Article II is pretty vague about the rest of presidential power and filling in those gaps with domestic policymaking and executive legislation (EO's etc.) is a relatively recent development.  See, e.g., Teddy, Franklin, the last four or five, etc.