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Joe Biden 2023: The Dark Brandon Rises


StassneyHorn

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I don't think most workers are seeing drastic increases in pay. It goes back to wealth disparity which is still a huge problem and something in which we should look backwards to "make America great again." Back when a high school diploma could get you a good 8-5 job with enough pay to support a family, buy a home, a few cars, and still have enough left over for a big vacation every year or so. Even if pay increases people today are being squeezed for every dollar for housing, healthcare, and education. We vacation on credit cards. A high marginal top end rate and taxes on wealth and inheritance would go a long way to helping every day people. To me, that's the big difference between the Republican and Democratic party. Republicans are dominated by the far right wing which is now full blown facist theocrats. Democrats are still mostly centrists who aren't willing to go as far as the far left flank wants. The young people who are being screwed in this system are getting frustrated and are possibly going to sit out elections (hence Trump, etc.). They also now are largely saying thinks like they are against or anti-capitalism. They really aren't, it's just that the excesses of capitalism have taken over and huge swaths of people, young people in particular, are being left behind. Well regulated capitalism is about where most people would lie on the spectrum, but all we ever hear is the extreme right and left views. It's infuriating to me as I consider well-regulated capitalism as a centrist position that both parties should be able to agree upon with the devil in the details (where do we set the rate, what exceptions are we going to include, etc.). 

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2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

No doubt a reflection of his era (assuming WWII or WWII adjacent) along with Cold War existentialism?

Yes, born 1922, served briefly in the Navy at Annapolis in officer training during WWII before getting discharged 4F for asthma.  Rather than return to grad school he joined Curtis Wright to design wing struts for fighter/bombers.  Eventually finished his doctorate and taught civil engineering for decades.

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It's a fine opinion to have, but to tell people who vote on things like jobs, economy, healthcare, etc. that they are barely above a slug in sentience because they aren't concerend first and foremost with geopolitical issues and foreign policies abroad is overly judgmental and close-minded IMO.

To say nothing of issues like Civil Rights, reproductive rights, etc.

You'd think most of the time the kitchen table issues and foreign policies would be aligned, but in areas where they are not, you'll have to forgive me for not prioritizing foreign policy for domestic ones, personally.

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8 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I don't think most workers are seeing drastic increases in pay. It goes back to wealth disparity which is still a huge problem and something in which we should look backwards to "make America great again." Back when a high school diploma could get you a good 8-5 job with enough pay to support a family, buy a home, a few cars, and still have enough left over for a big vacation every year or so. Even if pay increases people today are being squeezed for every dollar for housing, healthcare, and education. We vacation on credit cards. A high marginal top end rate and taxes on wealth and inheritance would go a long way to helping every day people. To me, that's the big difference between the Republican and Democratic party. Republicans are dominated by the far right wing which is now full blown facist theocrats. Democrats are still mostly centrists who aren't willing to go as far as the far left flank wants. The young people who are being screwed in this system are getting frustrated and are possibly going to sit out elections (hence Trump, etc.). They also now are largely saying thinks like they are against or anti-capitalism. They really aren't, it's just that the excesses of capitalism have taken over and huge swaths of people, young people in particular, are being left behind. Well regulated capitalism is about where most people would lie on the spectrum, but all we ever hear is the extreme right and left views. It's infuriating to me as I consider well-regulated capitalism as a centrist position that both parties should be able to agree upon with the devil in the details (where do we set the rate, what exceptions are we going to include, etc.). 

Fantastic post.

There is a whole ocean we could and should navigate but to hear the talking points we are staked to the island of "Billionaires paying zero in taxes" on the one side and "There should never be such a thing as a Billionaire" on the other.

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2 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Or, bear with me here, having at least a 3rd grade understanding of how our government functions.

The vast majority of Americans who vote probably don't have that. It's an is/ought quandary then and that's a losing battle.

And to clarify, I don't think the opinion of "you should only vote for the president based on their foreign policy/chops" is close-minded or judgmental, just the disdain you have shown for people who prioritize domestic issues that are personal to them is.

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3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

just the disdain you have shown for people who prioritize domestic issues that are personal to them is.

 

I disdain the shit out of them, 100%

 

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

I can't speak for my dad, but I can only assume his thinking was that the "kitchen table" stuff back home would be handled by Congress, local government, and (increasingly) the courts.  POTUS is the face of the country and drives foreign policy.

 

Precisely. And foreign policy is the only thing the executive can truly control. Everything they do domestically is nibbling around the edges. Congress ultimately controls that.

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2 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I disdain the shit out of them, 100%

 

 

Precisely. And foreign policy is the only thing the executive can truly control. Everything they do domestically is nibbling around the edges. Congress ultimately controls that.

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed. Add in SCOTUS nominations and it's pretty damn important domestically. Much more than just nibbling around the edges.

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3 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I disdain the shit out of them, 100%

Okay, fair enough.

Then I'll ask again,

How do you reconcile "the far right are idiots and actively vote against their own self interests and things that would selfishly help them" (of which I agree with and think is a good legitimate criticism) with your stance that...people shouldn't vote for their self interests and things that would selfishly help them, but rather the best foreign policy operator (in their opinion)?

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6 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed.

 

Certainly, but that retards policy, it doesn't advance it. The only way to advance policy is to pass legislation.

 

6 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Okay, fair enough.

Then I'll ask again,

How do you reconcile "the far right are idiots and actively vote against their own self interests and things that would selfishly help them" (of which I agree with and think is a good legitimate criticism) with your stance that...people shouldn't vote for their self interests and things that would selfishly help them, but rather the best foreign policy operator?

 

Do you really need me to answer the difference between working class people who would benefit from government policy and selfish emotionally stunted suburbanite upper middles who are mad they had to spend a little more on gas to tote around little Kayden and Preslee to their activities

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5 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Certainly, but that retards policy, it doesn't advance it. The only way to advance policy is to pass legislation.

 

 

Do you really need me to answer the difference between working class people who would benefit from government policy and selfish emotionally stunted suburbanite upper middles who are mad they had to spend a little more on gas to tote around little Kayden and Preslee to their activities

It's funny to satirize and make fun of the suburbanite middle class people (of which this website is, no doubt, lousy with), but circling back to the initial topic and discussion flash point: who do you think are the ones that a) are the college educated who generally vote for centric/sane/Biden and b) the same people who are grumbling and complaining with "the economy" and how it doesn't feel so great.

It's a bit like the old saying, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

The good economy is great for the rich with their saving vehicles growing 100% YoY and it's great for the working class who get an $18/hour raise. But it's treading water for the middle class. And it's the middle class who swing elections (though again, I don't think 2024 will be impacted, but beyond who knows...)

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2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

who do you think are the ones that a) are the college educated who generally vote for centric/sane/Biden and b) the same people who are grumbling and complaining with "the economy" and how it doesn't feel so great.

 

You should go read the CNBC article I posted.

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13 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

You should go read the CNBC article I posted.

Just read it, I think it echoes a lot of the points I was making. I specifically resonated with the quote: 

"The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy."

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There are definitely people who are hurting in this economy. And guess what, they are people that are hurting in every economy, whether it's an overall positive or negative. Like usual, the people who are hurting the most are those that have limited skills, skills that are not in demand and/or they're in an industry/company that are having difficulties. There's also a category of unlucky people who find themselves unemployed for whatever reasons, some are which are out of their control.

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The disconnect between actual economic performance and how the economy FEELS to people is so confounding. Even among people on this thread who would probably say Biden has done a pretty good job with the economy. I guess everyone is just beaten down into a pulp by everyone around them constantly moaning about how shitty things really are? I certainly get that in my day to day, but I live in deep east Texas and am generally surrounded by people that I disagree with about pretty much everything related to current events/politics/economics, etc.

Just a few:

image.thumb.png.fc5c2b9206246416c489170d05d80a11.png

Higher than it's ever been, save the massive Covid stimulus.

image.jpeg.1966aca3315f03abb6079a158e027470.jpeg

Wages for people at the bottom are increasing faster than for people at the top.

How is the US doing against our peers?

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The price of eggs peaked in JAN of 2023.

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I'm not even an amateur economist, but it's hard to understand how the objective reality of the economy is so different than people's perception of it. Unless all the numbers are just made up and it's all a big conspiracy to trick people into thinking things are going okay under old Joey Two Scoops!

 

 

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17 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

 

I'm not even an amateur economist, but it's hard to understand how the objective reality of the economy is so different than people's perception of it. Unless all the numbers are just made up and it's all a big conspiracy to trick people into thinking things are going okay under old Joey Two Scoops!

 

 

Great post. I think it falls back to the hyper-individualistic bent we have as Americans. If we (the royal we, pun not intended) take the aggregate on the whole, then we could celebrate as a shared identity that "hey, you know what, things are going great! I might not be seeing or feeling any marginal gains or impacts, but there are good things happening like the bottom wage earners, rising, etc."

But we are so large now as a country and so disassociated with each other generally, that it harkens back to a selfish "I feel like this sucks, so it must suck" mentality of perception being reality, despite what is objectively reality.

In other words, "What the poor and the rich eat don't make the middle class poop, let me eat more too", to put it in a vulgar idiom of the working class..

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1 hour ago, G650 said:

Do you really need me to answer the difference between working class people who would benefit from government policy and selfish emotionally stunted suburbanite upper middles who are mad they had to spend a little more on gas to tote around little Kayden and Preslee to their activities

Preslee's cool, but Kayden is an asshole.

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56 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Just read it, I think it echoes a lot of the points I was making. I specifically resonated with the quote: 

"The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy."

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

But we are so large now as a country and so disassociated with each other generally, that it harkens back to a selfish "I feel like this sucks, so it must suck" mentality of perception being reality, despite what is objectively reality.

I don't think we really are disassociated with each other generally and that's the problem.  If you are a Republican, you are inundated with emails and social media posts from campaigns, bots, your own friends and family, telling you that even if you are doing relatively well, that's impossible because a Democrat is in the White House.  If you're a Republican/MAGA type, you are constantly pressured by campaigns and family/friends to like and share this or that post on social media, regardless of the accuracy of it.

I haven't been a Republican or campaigned for any of them in 20 years, but I've still got the same email and phone number, and my junk folder is full of Republican spam telling me how bad everything is, and that Biden is going to take one of my children and drink their blood and Pete is going to take my gas-burning car and Kamala is about to empty out my bank account and give it to somebody else, and my text messages are all about STOPPING THE DEMOCRATS without telling me why they need to be stopped.  It's a lot of "vote for us because Dems bad" not "vote for us because we have your best interests at heart and here's 5 examples!"

Since going independent (after my libertarian phase), I rarely had anything to do with the GOP but I still get their stuff 20 years later.  As far as Democrats in terms of that kind of stuff, I have occasionally donated or been put on mailing lists, and so obviously I get far fewer emails/text messages, but the emails and text messages I get are far different than the Republican stuff.  Most of them are telling me more about why I should vote for the Democrat than vote against the Republican, but the ones that attack Republicans are usually detailed and point to specific reasons that I can research on my own, and not spouting dumb conspiracy bullshit.

Your typical MAGA type does not have the critical thinking skills to evaluate the liked and shared stuff they are inundated with, or they don't want to disagree/rock the boat, because MAGA can turn on MAGA in a heartbeat, for not being MAGA enough.

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12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I don't think we really are disassociated with each other generally and that's the problem.  If you are a Republican, you are inundated with emails and social media posts from campaigns, bots, your own friends and family, telling you that even if you are doing relatively well, that's impossible because a Democrat is in the White House.  If you're a Republican/MAGA type, you are constantly pressured by campaigns and family/friends to like and share this or that post on social media, regardless of the accuracy of it.

I haven't been a Republican or campaigned for any of them in 20 years, but I've still got the same email and phone number, and my junk folder is full of Republican spam telling me how bad everything is, and that Biden is going to take one of my children and drink their blood and Pete is going to take my gas-burning car and Kamala is about to empty out my bank account and give it to somebody else, and my text messages are all about STOPPING THE DEMOCRATS without telling me why they need to be stopped.  It's a lot of "vote for us because Dems bad" not "vote for us because we have your best interests at heart and here's 5 examples!"

Since going independent (after my libertarian phase), I rarely had anything to do with the GOP but I still get their stuff 20 years later.  As far as Democrats in terms of that kind of stuff, I have occasionally donated or been put on mailing lists, and so obviously I get far fewer emails/text messages, but the emails and text messages I get are far different than the Republican stuff.  Most of them are telling me more about why I should vote for the Democrat than vote against the Republican, but the ones that attack Republicans are usually detailed and point to specific reasons that I can research on my own, and not spouting dumb conspiracy bullshit.

Your typical MAGA type does not have the critical thinking skills to evaluate the liked and shared stuff they are inundated with, or they don't want to disagree/rock the boat, because MAGA can turn on MAGA in a heartbeat, for not being MAGA enough.

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

 

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3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Unless of course you quit your job and give yourself a raise with a new job, but even in the "good economy" of the last 12 months, big companies and good jobs were laying people off and not as easy to find during the COVID years.

Totally depends on the industry.  Tech couldn’t hire fast enough during COVID while oil and gas jobs were non-existent.  It’s 180 degrees different today.

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1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Except the presidency has the power of the veto. That can at least act as a firewall if needed. Add in SCOTUS nominations and it's pretty damn important domestically. Much more than just nibbling around the edges.

appointing all the heads of the bureaucracies as well.  regardless of if you agree with current appointees or not, FTC runs a shitload different under Lina Kahn than it did under formerly, Gensler......etc

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1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

Keep in mind that while the like/share stuff has been around since our uncles were sending us email chains in the 90s or early 2000s, it's really only been weaponized in the past 7-8 years or so, and it's narrowly targeted, and it's usually a true campaign.  I've got MAGA relatives that will post stuff on Facebook or whatever, and within a minute or two, I can find the origins and see that it's a push by some Republican politician or talking head.  They'll have their soundbites out with some statistic or some photos or video, and then it's automatically pushed out to everybody who follows them or is on their email lists or whatever, and those people are passing it around, sounding panicked or whatever.

Take the border stuff for instance - the same shit that is happening now, happened under Trump, and Obama and Bush (although Bush pitched a guest-worker program) and Clinton.  Here in Texas, it's beaten into peoples' heads that it's a Democrat problem, even though Republicans have held power for decades.  Somebody mentions a caravan or drugs, and a bunch of MAGA types who scare easily freak out, and they start getting that confirmation bias dopamine hit, and they start trying to rile up the less-easily-scared types, and wash, rinse, repeat.  Same with the economy.

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6 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

You're so close to describing the massive inequality of wealth we see today. Sure the COVID recovery has been good, but wage earners are basically back to where they were before (which is not great) while the investment class has been reaping massive gains and buying up housing to turn around to rent to the wage earners at inflated prices. Companies are going gangbusters, but flesh and blood people aren't getting any of that trickle down action.

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21 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're so close to describing the massive inequality of wealth we see today. Sure the COVID recovery has been good, but wage earners are basically back to where they were before (which is not great) while the investment class has been reaping massive gains and buying up housing to turn around to rent to the wage earners at inflated prices. Companies are going gangbusters, but flesh and blood people aren't getting any of that trickle down action.

And you are so close to describing the "middle class squeeze". The Rich get richer and the poor are doing better and being lifted out of poverty into poverty lite aka lower middle class, and the middle class is the Atlas that dare not shrug, lest the whole thing fall apart. 

Speaking of falling apart, the word center is sometimes synonymous with middle. As in middle class.

--

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

...

etc.

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39 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I think what you are saying is true but I can't fathom how this is an explanation for the entire problem of: "The current economic mood in America is unusual. Voters report feeling deep economic pessimism, but statistics show they are living through an objectively strong economy.", especially when the aforementioned encompasses a huge portion and demographic of democrat and independent voters and isn't political party specific. It's maybe class-specific, if even that, but certainly not politically.

Consumer Confidence Index doesn't really reflect this pessimism all that much.  I think it's important to question what consumers are actually voicing this "deep economic pessimism".  (hint:  it's MAGAts)

image.thumb.png.32ee0f58ef5e7c2c32d59efaefbfd530.png

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15 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

The Rich get richer and the poor are doing better and being lifted out of poverty into poverty lite aka lower middle class, and the middle class is the Atlas that dare not shrug, lest the whole thing fall apart. 

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth

Edited by Captainant
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5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

Where did you see the household median income is $75k?

I read this today

Quote

As of 2023, the average salary in the USA varies largely across industries, job positions, age groups, levels of experience, and educational backgrounds. However, the average salary nationwide in the US, according to Forbes, is $59,428. On the other hand, median household income in the US was $70,784 in 2021.

from this link: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/average-salary-state-us-152311356.html 

which was citing this: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-state/#sources_section

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5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

Thats why unions and socialism have become more appealing to people 10+ years out of college. Millennials never had a chance in the economy the Boomers and Gen Xers left behind. Gen Z even less so.

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11 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?

That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.

And yea, I agree with you. The middle is crumbling, those that are left in the middle are getting squeezed, and the rich get richer. It's no wonder that the middle are upset despite the economy being good.

The wealthy are making exponential gains in investment and savings vehicles, the poor are getting 100% pay raises in some instances going from minimum wage to $15-20+/hour and the middle/upper middle gets nothing unless they have an already robust 401k and/or bought a cheap house that's now worth 5x or are in jobs/industries they can count on a nice COLA raise or pay raise (or can find another job that pays more).

Oh we also get the cold consolation of having other people tell us to shut up and just enjoy the pie charts and graphs because that means good things and the condescension for saying, "but wait, I'm not feeling any of these marginal gains though, but yay? Can I get some of the goodness too?"

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1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

And yea, I agree with you. The middle is crumbling, those that are left in the middle are getting squeezed, and the rich get richer. It's no wonder that the middle are upset despite the economy being good.

The wealthy are making exponential gains in investment and savings vehicles, the poor are getting 100% pay raises in some instances going from minimum wage to $15-20+/hour and the middle/upper middle gets nothing unless they have an already robust 401k and/or bought a cheap house that's now worth 5x.

Oh we also get the cold consolation of having other people tell us to shut up and just enjoy the pie charts and graphs because that means good things and the condescension for saying, "but wait, I'm not feeling any of these marginal gains though, but yay? Can I get some of the goodness too?"

It's like having the top recruiting class of all time and going 7-5

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There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?
That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.
EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth
Your link is "real household income", real meaning "adjusted for inflation"


Edit: interesting that I quoted the post in tapa before it was edited, and then when I hit post it brought in the edited post.
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2 minutes ago, elfenix said:
22 minutes ago, Captainant said:
There is absolutely not more upward mobility basically since the 2008 financial crisis. Median incomes have been absolutely consumed by inflation. Household median income was $67,000 in 2000 (link) - that comes out to over $120k in today's money. Today's household median income is only $75,000. It's 37% off of inflation. And yet, markets are at all time highs and profits are better than ever?
That's not the bottom rising into the middle. That's the bottom falling out of the middle as the top skyrockets away.
EDIT: I just realized that chart is adjusted dollars, so egg on my face for that. Whoops. Point still being, median wages have not grown at the rate of the overall US economy and GDP growth

Your link is "real household income", real meaning "adjusted for inflation"

Yeah I derped on the post and left the edit for that reason. But wages are not growing at the rate of the US economy - real GDP per capital (so no bamboozles, link) has grown from $50k/pp $67k/pp - that's a 34% growth. Wages ain't growing like the economy is - but the wealth of our oligarch class IS growing proportionally to the US economy.

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49 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Consumer Confidence Index doesn't really reflect this pessimism all that much.  I think it's important to question what consumers are actually voicing this "deep economic pessimism".  (hint:  it's MAGAts)

image.thumb.png.32ee0f58ef5e7c2c32d59efaefbfd530.png

Just a reminder that The Onion has been gold for a loooooong time.

https://www.theonion.com/consumer-confidence-verging-on-cockiness-1819586917

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20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yeah I derped on the post and left the edit for that reason. But wages are not growing at the rate of the US economy - real GDP per capital (so no bamboozles, link) has grown from $50k/pp $67k/pp - that's a 34% growth. Wages ain't growing like the economy is - but the wealth of our oligarch class IS growing proportionally to the US economy.

Just from this premise, you could make the hypothesis that the 34% growth is not being translated to 34% wages in people because it's not the people labor (FTE's) who are responsible for all 34% of this growth. 

And Software, bots, and AI doesn't take a full wage with insurance.

So, playing devil's advocate, do people deserve the full 1:1 wage growth for GDP growth if they aren't the ones "earning" it?

Also, playing devil's advocate, should we tax employers on AI/software that make productivity and efficiency gains at the expense of people, as Bill Gates once argued?

The answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind Universal Basic Income.

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this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

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1 minute ago, mchookem said:

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

Shut up, lib.

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1 minute ago, mchookem said:

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

image.jpeg.cf534c0f36449efefe2be0a8eea4fc8a.jpeg

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this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 
just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy
congratulations! lol
Negged.
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11 minutes ago, mchookem said:

this thread has taken an interesting and informative turn, with some very constructive conversation. 

just wanted to mention that, along with the complete absence of neg rep in the past few pages that is constantly whined about in CR... it's amazing the conversations that can happen when people have actual good faith discussion and don't just storm in with stupid hurr-durr troll bait idiocy 🙄

congratulations! lol 😄

Also I got to brush up on some Yeats 😛

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming

ETA:

I was today years old when I learned Joan Didion's "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" takes it's title from Yeats' poem. Ha!

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I feel for people that are not succeeding financially in this world and no apparent entry ramp on the success freeway. Many of them look to the govt, both parties, for help but it's not that simple. The govt obviously help to encourage some industries and there are govt jobs, but not enough for everyone to be successful.

While private industry creates new jobs, it's usually more about destroying inefficient jobs and companies. New Company B takes over as the market leader from Old Company A, there is a good chance that fewer total people work for the combined companies.

Dems have their flaws but at least I see them with a positive ideas. The right seems more about protectionism and more oil drilling. Those deserve a place at the table but it isn't the future.

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23 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

...

Dems have their flaws but at least I see them with a positive ideas. The right seems more about protectionism and more oil drilling. Those deserve a place at the table but it isn't the future.

When you just pull out the table cloth and piss all over what ends up broken on the ground, you don't even deserve a seat at the table.  That's where I'm at with today's R party.  Fuck them.  Fight fire with fire. 

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5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah I know, that's my point

I can't speak for everyone, but Millennials and Gen Z view Gen X as complicit in allowing Boomers to dictate the terms of the economy and post-2000 politics. Is it fair? Thats not for me to say. But ask a Zoomer what they think of Gen Xers.

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