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Posted
9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Would the answer to this not be all of them?

Well if they want it put in writing, they’re going to have to give the judge a list to start…

Posted
6 minutes ago, The Dog said:

also of note is that Nauta wasn't arraigned yesterday - he couldn't find local counsel and didn't have a Chris Kise to step up and pinch hit for him. they are going to try again on June 27th.

My guess is that this is a pretty funny backstory.  There's obviously a finite list of quality local attorneys and I'm sure Nauta deferred to the Trump team to go through that list to find Trump's attorney first.  Depending on how deep on that list he went, he likely made Nauta's task incredibly difficult as I doubt any of the attorney's that told Trump "no thanks, we're...uh... busy" would then turn around and take on Nauta.

Posted
49 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Give him a little rope and he will hang himself.

Don't get my hopes up

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Posted
42 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's bullshit they didn't even take his passport or forbid him leaving the country. The asshole owns a fucking jet. It's not inconceivable that he just flees. 

You won’t find him hiding in an Iraqi spider hole

You won’t find him in a Libyan drain pipe

You will find him in a Riyadh McDonalds  

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

My guess is that this is a pretty funny backstory.  There's obviously a finite list of quality local attorneys and I'm sure Nauta deferred to the Trump team to go through that list to find Trump's attorney first.  Depending on how deep on that list he went, he likely made Nauta's task incredibly difficult as I doubt any of the attorney's that told Trump "no thanks, we're...uh... busy" would then turn around and take on Nauta.

Also, I'm relatively certain Trump wants to pay for his attorney to reduce the likelihood of flipping.

That's an ethical quagmire for any attorney considering representing Nauta.

Trump managed to pull that off w/r/to J6 witnesses because there wasn't immediate criminal jeopardy and it was some campaign apparatus that hired and paid them.  But I think a few of those lawyers put themselves in the jackpot.

Also, Nauta apparenly had lawyered up in the investigative phase when he clammed up.  And I might guess that lawyer was paid by Trump and is unwilling to make an appearance in an actual criminal case due to the conflict.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

Just a thought and opinion, but the narrative continues to be that the Republican Party is now the Q party and run by Trump, but I don't think that's true.  Yes, in order to win, Trump did need the Q's and the crazies to win in 2016, and yes they did become more engaged and loud because of it, but ultimately that's not the bulk of the party.  Mind you I'm not excusing their behavior, nor am I excusing those that enabled them to meet their own political ends in the short term.  But to me, the truth is that the Republican Party is primarily now the baby boomer generation, combined with Christian fundamentalists, and the Q's.  

For the record, I know some here would identify with being in the baby boomer generation and perhaps take offense to that.  I'm painting in a broad stroke here, and of course these aren't universally true judgments.  

This is where there is good news.  The fact of the matter is, with each passing day there are less of the baby boomer generation alive, and that is only going to accelerate.  You only need to look at an actuary table and overlay it with the general population to see this, and it will continue to accelerate over the next 10 years.  In regards to the religious right, the fact of the matter is that Americans in general quite frankly are shunning organized religion, and educated people at an accelerated level.  As a lifelong atheist, I am very encouraged by this, particularly as the amount of Americans with at least some college continues to grow.  Lastly, the Q group are the types that get arrested and convicted of felonies, and their leadership is being ravaged by indictments.  

All this being said, the Republican Party currently has no real plan to attract new voters, they just rehash the same old bullshit to target these three groups.  Well, if these 3 groups are shrinking, that bodes well for the future.  

Rightly or wrongly, to me, the Trump era will always represent to me the last gasp of political power by the baby boomer generation.  A fitting end to the greediest generation in human history.  Quite frankly I look forward to a future without this group having much political clout.  I'm sure not everything will be perfect, and we will make bad choices as well, but I'm looking forward to that opportunity.  

So for all the people worried about the Q people, they have a point, but we now have an opportunity to win elections by just showing up and being involved.  These people will sulk back to their fucking shanties when do over and over again.  

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

All this being said, the Republican Party currently has no real plan to attract new voters, they just rehash the same old bullshit to target these three groups.  Well, if these 3 groups are shrinking, that bodes well for the future.  

 

I've heard this same thing, more or less, for over two decades now.  And the GOP are still attracting new voters by simply changing  or adding on something new to whatever it is they pretend to stand for every 2-3 years.  And it works.

You think the young people supporting the Republican Party today had any interest in doing so prior to 2015?  Hell, did these young people even have an interest in voting prior to 2015?

 

Edited by Francisco 2.0
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Posted
11 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

Normal, totally sane stuff:

 

He knows his rhetoric and audience. There's no wonder to him giving Rush Limbaugh a medal. 

Liberals are out to get you and destroy our country. Liberals are feminazis, environmental wackos, and socialists looking to enslave you by making you absolutely dependent on the nanny state. You're too brave and strong for that, listeners! This is the greatest country and you, my friends are the greatest people. Don't let your mythological purity and strength be compromised and conquered! 

Democrats are the real racists keeping black people in thrall to welfare. (Sotto voce: Of course, all black people and only black people require and receive state assistance.)

We will not be replaced. We will take our country back. They will be defeated in a battle of good vs. evil.

That's a religion and Donald Fucking Trump stole the pope hat. Popes come and go, but the religion (Hate) goes on.

These clips of him and clips of the Karens and the yokel Covid-deniers and the rest chill me.

I do believe that the arrests and prosecution of the insurrectionists has deterred that form of government takeover from recurring. But the astonishingly open misuse of government power displayed by the GOP House and promised by GOP presidential contenders roars onward. 

Every accusation is a confession is a worn phrase but true, yet it's not quite encompassing.

Every accusation excuses the accusers to actually carry out the false allegations they spew. Who is weaponizing arms of the federal government? Who is shamelessly using the courts and state government to persecute pregnant women, transexual teenagers, POC who want to vote, or even DOJ prosecutors?

Trump speaks the language fluently and, for the large plurality, with remarkable effect. There won't be another assault on the Capitol, but that's only one kind of assault.

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Posted
11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, I'm relatively certain Trump wants to pay for his attorney to reduce the likelihood of flipping.

That's an ethical quagmire for any attorney considering representing Nauta.

Trump managed to pull that off w/r/to J6 witnesses because there wasn't immediate criminal jeopardy and it was some campaign apparatus that hired and paid them.  But I think a few of those lawyers put themselves in the jackpot.

Also, Nauta apparenly had lawyered up in the investigative phase when he clammed up.  And I might guess that lawyer was paid by Trump and is unwilling to make an appearance in an actual criminal case due to the conflict.

Word is his lawyer is being paid by Trump's PAC and that's why he didn't flip. Probably was expecting Trump to find him local counsel and of course he didn't because nobody wants to take this case.

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Posted
27 minutes ago, The Dog said:

he's also got a secret service detail who can haul him in whenever if he refuses to show up. If he were to refuse secret service protection then I'd think the prosecution wouldn't have allowed this. Also, Trump is used to the good life and really just goes to political events and then stays at his tacky-ass properties. 

This was generally my understanding from the analysis yesterday. I didn't gather that the Secret Service would haul him in. My take from it was that having that detail means his location and movements are exactly known at all times. It would be interesting if Trump ordered his jet to leave US airspace to see what the Secret Service would do. That's the only time that I can think of where the agents couldn't just inform law enforcement to take action.

Posted

So if he wins, he's vowing to "go after" Biden. Exactly what he's, falsely, complaining that's happening to him. Some might even call that weaponizing of government. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

This was generally my understanding from the analysis yesterday. I didn't gather that the Secret Service would haul him in. My take from it was that having that detail means his location and movements are exactly known at all times. It would be interesting if Trump ordered his jet to leave US airspace to see what the Secret Service would do. That's the only time that I can think of where the agents couldn't just inform law enforcement to take action.

Secret Service is law enforcement and if the FBI says to bring him in they can take him into custody (if necessary).

Edited by The Dog
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Posted
28 minutes ago, Lurch said:

My guess is that this is a pretty funny backstory.  There's obviously a finite list of quality local attorneys and I'm sure Nauta deferred to the Trump team to go through that list to find Trump's attorney first.  Depending on how deep on that list he went, he likely made Nauta's task incredibly difficult as I doubt any of the attorney's that told Trump "no thanks, we're...uh... busy" would then turn around and take on Nauta.

My guess is more that Trump is going to pay the legal bills for him and that creates the usual problems regarding retainer and payment 

Posted
Just now, Pig Bellmont said:

My guess is more that Trump is going to pay the legal bills for him and that creates the usual problems regarding retainer and payment 

My understanding is that a Trump PAC is currently paying

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Lurch said:

My understanding is that a Trump PAC is currently paying

which means he's going to jail because he probably lied to investigators and now they have evidence that he did and can prove it. He's toast.

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Posted
Just now, The Dog said:

which means he's going to jail because he probably lied to investigators and now they have evidence that he did and can prove it. He's toast.

Yeah, one of the talking heads asked a panel yesterday what if Nauta flips, and the response was that the govt no longer needs him to.  His best bet at this point may be to simply ride the Trump coattails in hopes of a hung jury.

Posted
2 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Secret Service is law enforcement and if the FBI says to bring him in they can take him into custody (if necessary).

You seem sure, so I'll take your word for it. Now I wonder if Trump has Secret Service agents who could be implicated in the Jan. 6 conspiracy who might like to flee with him. 😀

Posted
1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's bullshit they didn't even take his passport or forbid him leaving the country. The asshole owns a fucking jet. It's not inconceivable that he just flees. 

Shit, I'd consider it a win if Trump left the US and never came back. Win win.

willy-wonka-stop-dont-come-back.gif

 

38 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, I'm relatively certain Trump wants to pay for his attorney to reduce the likelihood of flipping.

That's an ethical quagmire for any attorney considering representing Nauta.

Trump managed to pull that off w/r/to J6 witnesses because there wasn't immediate criminal jeopardy and it was some campaign apparatus that hired and paid them.  But I think a few of those lawyers put themselves in the jackpot.

Also, Nauta apparenly had lawyered up in the investigative phase when he clammed up.  And I might guess that lawyer was paid by Trump and is unwilling to make an appearance in an actual criminal case due to the conflict.

Heard some folks opining yesterday that Jack Smith doesn't need Nauta to flip. They think he's got the goods as-is. Guess Nauta could be the slam dunk and I'm ok letting him walk away scot-free if he fries DOTARD in the process. I don't care about Igor (it's pronounced EYE-gor) here.

 

35 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Just a thought and opinion, but the narrative continues to be that the Republican Party is now the Q party and run by Trump, but I don't think that's true.  Yes, in order to win, Trump did need the Q's and the crazies to win in 2016, and yes they did become more engaged and loud because of it, but ultimately that's not the bulk of the party.  Mind you I'm not excusing their behavior, nor am I excusing those that enabled them to meet their own political ends in the short term.  But to me, the truth is that the Republican Party is primarily now the baby boomer generation, combined with Christian fundamentalists, and the Q's.  

For the record, I know some here would identify with being in the baby boomer generation and perhaps take offense to that.  I'm painting in a broad stroke here, and of course these aren't universally true judgments.  

This is where there is good news.  The fact of the matter is, with each passing day there are less of the baby boomer generation alive, and that is only going to accelerate.  You only need to look at an actuary table and overlay it with the general population to see this, and it will continue to accelerate over the next 10 years.  In regards to the religious right, the fact of the matter is that Americans in general quite frankly are shunning organized religion, and educated people at an accelerated level.  As a lifelong atheist, I am very encouraged by this, particularly as the amount of Americans with at least some college continues to grow.  Lastly, the Q group are the types that get arrested and convicted of felonies, and their leadership is being ravaged by indictments.  

All this being said, the Republican Party currently has no real plan to attract new voters, they just rehash the same old bullshit to target these three groups.  Well, if these 3 groups are shrinking, that bodes well for the future.  

Rightly or wrongly, to me, the Trump era will always represent to me the last gasp of political power by the baby boomer generation.  A fitting end to the greediest generation in human history.  Quite frankly I look forward to a future without this group having much political clout.  I'm sure not everything will be perfect, and we will make bad choices as well, but I'm looking forward to that opportunity.  

So for all the people worried about the Q people, they have a point, but we now have an opportunity to win elections by just showing up and being involved.  These people will sulk back to their fucking shanties when do over and over again.  

I agree with all of this. While there are definitely stereotypical, douchebag, rich, white shitheads being raised by like-minded parents who will do whatever they can to hang on to the status quo, our youth are mostly skewing in the other direction.

 

28 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

I've heard this same thing, more or less, for over two decades now.  And the GOP are still attracting new voters by simply changing  or adding on something new to whatever it is they pretend to stand for every 2-3 years.  And it works.

You think the young people supporting the Republican Party today had any interest in doing so prior to 2015?  Hell, did these young people even have an interest in voting prior to 2015?

 

It really is all about the Boomers. They aren't replacing them fast enough as they die off -- and never will.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's bullshit they didn't even take his passport or forbid him leaving the country. The asshole owns a fucking jet. It's not inconceivable that he just flees. 

That wouldn't be my first choice to end the story of a pathetic man's downfall, but at this point I'd take it

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Posted
2 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You seem sure, so I'll take your word for it. Now I wonder if Trump has Secret Service agents who could be implicated in the Jan. 6 conspiracy who might like to flee with him. 😀

Fleeing isnt the worst result. Maybe he could be tried in absentia, maybe not. But he wouldn’t be here to draw crowds and maintain his support levels and energy. And maybe there’s a small part of his following that would see it as cowardice and be less motivated to vote for him. 

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Posted (edited)

He’s got secret service 24/7, he can’t flee. Although if he just wanted to fucking disappear I’d be okay with it. Problem is he’d go to Russia or Saudi and continue stirring shit up from a distance without extradition.

Edited by 'stache
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Posted

Yeah, I don't think Smith needs Nauta, but it wouldn't hurt.

And, I think the flip concern from Trump was bigger during the investigation.

Smith really beat the bushes for evidence of intent.  Well done.

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Posted

Does anyone have insight into whether dotard and Nauta will be tried together or separately? Or is that something to be determined later? 

Posted
5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Fleeing isnt the worst result. Maybe he could be tried in absentia, maybe not. But he wouldn’t be here to draw crowds and maintain his support levels and energy. And maybe there’s a small part of his following that would see it as cowardice and be less motivated to vote for him. 

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure a criminal defendant can't be tried in absentia.

Posted
1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's bullshit they didn't even take his passport or forbid him leaving the country. The asshole owns a fucking jet. It's not inconceivable that he just flees. 

 

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

he's also got a secret service detail who can haul him in whenever if he refuses to show up. If he were to refuse secret service protection then I'd think the prosecution wouldn't have allowed this. Also, Trump is used to the good life and really just goes to political events and then stays at his tacky-ass properties. 

I mean, I wouldn't have asked for his passport. He's a flight risk? I doubt it, but I fucking hope he chooses to flee. Let him go to Russia or Brazil and say he's fleeing America for good. Fucking let it happen. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

It's bullshit they didn't even take his passport or forbid him leaving the country. The asshole owns a fucking jet. It's not inconceivable that he just flees. 

Willy Wonka Stop GIF

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Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, I'm relatively certain Trump wants to pay for his attorney to reduce the likelihood of flipping.

That's an ethical quagmire for any attorney considering representing Nauta.

Cracking Up Lol GIF by HULU

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Posted

I mean as soon as he leaves for a non-extradition country, he sends the fundraising email.  So it is entirely plausible.

Posted
1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

 

And that's why it's a race. The voter restriction laws, the ability to overthrow elections when they don't like the results, all the shit that you're seeing take place in multiple states to ensure they retain local power even if they don't win national...it's a race to pure fascism. They know that window is closing, and they know that can't appeal to new voters, so here they are, deciding that democracy isn't as important as their "morality." That's the game. 

This this and more this.

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Cracking Up Lol GIF by HULU

Although that's been standard shit for Trump in civil investigations, an actual federal criminal case makes it much more likely an attorney gets called on that and actually gets in trouble.  At minimum gets kicked off the case.

In a civil case with a bad joint representation, it usually only comes back to haunt the lawyer if some bad result happens for the "jointly represented."  Then a malpractice case and grievance may follow.  If no bad result occurs, then no one is ever going to look at it, most likely. 

See for instance that foofaraw in Atlanta over the fake electors.  Prosecutors routinely question representation arrangements that may be unethical, because it might jeopardize their conviction.

Yet another way in which this is a whole different world for Trump.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/trump-indictment-florida-new-jersey-classified/674393/

 

Quote

Even before last Thursday’s indictment in United States v. Donald Trump, public speculation swirled about whether the former president had taken classified documents not just to Mar-a-Lago but also to his residence and golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey. The indictment answered that question with a bang while presenting a new puzzle about why Trump isn’t facing even steeper charges.

According to the Justice Department and a taped recording of the former president, Trump took classified records from Mar-a-Lago to Bedminster, where he showed off the contents of such records to others. The indictment alleges that Trump showed a map to a political ally and also showed a writer and a publisher a secret military plan to attack Iran. These two episodes were arguably the most egregious allegations of criminal wrongdoing mentioned in the indictment; they allege not just the improper retention of our nation’s most highly classified information, but the intentional communication of such information.

 

Quote

But these two allegations raise a question: Why did Special Counsel Jack Smith charge Trump with illegal retention of classified documents but not with dissemination of such materials? And is that decision final, or could dissemination charges still be in the works?

 

 

Quote

Trump’s Bedminster conduct, as described in the indictment, appears to fit the description of two federal offenses designed to keep America’s national-security secrets safe. One makes it a crime to intentionally communicate national-defense information to people not authorized to receive it, and the other makes it a crime to intentionally disclose classified information to the same. These are more serious crimes than willful retention of such documents, which is done to prevent possible leakage. Deliberate dissemination is the leakage itself.

 

 

Spoiler

The Justice Manual, the Department of Justice’s guidebook on criminal procedure, as well as guidance from the attorney general’s office, advises prosecutors to give strong consideration to charges of dissemination before making them. According to the manual, once a determination is made that an indictment is warranted, “the prosecutor must select the most appropriate charges,” and “ordinarily, those charges will include the most serious offense that is encompassed by the defendant’s conduct and that is likely to result in a sustainable conviction.” Attorney General Merrick Garland has indicated that the prosecutor can consider a number of factors in deciding whether to bring the most serious charges.

Smith appears to have taken a cautious, narrow approach. Even though the indictment describes alleged dissemination and disclosure of national-security secrets, the indictment did not charge Trump with those offenses.

One possible explanation for his decision: venue. The Constitution requires prosecutors to bring charges in the location—or venue—where the alleged criminal conduct took place. Justice Department prosecutors could not necessarily bring charges against Trump in Miami for alleged criminal conduct that occurred in another state, in this case New Jersey. But the absence of such charges in the indictment raises the intriguing possibility of another indictment to come, in a jurisdiction, no less, with a pool of jurors and judges more favorable to the government’s case against Trump.

The government could make a solid argument that Florida is, in fact, an appropriate location to bring the charges for dissemination at Bedminster. “Any offense against the United States begun in one district and completed in another,” according to a congressional statute, may be “prosecuted in any district in which such offense was begun, continued, or completed.” Just last year, the Court of Appeals with jurisdiction over Florida applied that statute in an analogous situation, holding that a defendant charged with storing drugs in Alabama and transporting them to Tennessee for distribution could be prosecuted in Alabama for drug distribution.

But perhaps Smith did not want to count on the Supreme Court to recognize Florida as an appropriate venue. Judges have not issued definitive rulings on how the law of venue applies to the national-security statutes under which Trump has been charged. Plus, any creative law student—or judicial clerk fresh out of law school—could find ways to distinguish the conspiracy to possess and sell drugs in another state from the crime of disclosure of classified information. Smith might have reasoned that the government could lose on the issue of venue for any dissemination charges it tried in a Florida court. And that could potentially be fatal to ever bringing those charges even in the place that’s an obvious venue option: New Jersey.

For example, with regard to Trump’s alleged disclosure of U.S. attack plans against Iran, it is possible, based on the publicly available facts, that Trump shared the number of U.S. troops required to attack Iran, but not the actual document outlining the attack plans. That would not make his conduct any less criminal—the law specifically prohibits verbal disclosure of such information, not just documents. But if the alleged crime was verbal communication, that crime arguably did not “commence” in Florida with the physical transportation of boxes to New Jersey.

Another possible explanation for why Smith didn’t charge Trump for the more serious offenses has to do with the range of prison time the defendant could be subject to. A conviction for any of the 31 counts Trump faces under the Espionage Act for retention of national-defense information would already yield the maximum penalty available under the federal sentencing guidelines. That is regardless of whether additional counts for dissemination are included. In evaluating a proper sentence, the judge could still take into account the two alleged instances of dissemination—there is no need for the prosecutors to obtain separate convictions on those counts for that conduct to be considered in the sentencing.

 

The legal uncertainties that surround bringing charges in Florida for dissemination of national-security secrets in Bedminster leaves open the possibility that charges might yet be brought in New Jersey—a backup plan of sorts for Smith. If Aileen Cannon, the Florida judge assigned to the case, were to seek to pocket-veto the charges before her by, say, scheduling the trial for after the 2024 presidential election, the special counsel would be able to sidestep her tactic by proceeding with charges in New Jersey.

In fact, the Miami indictment conspicuously excludes many facts surrounding Trump’s actions in Bedminster: what boxes were taken there, what they contained, how they were kept at the golf club. This silence suggests that there might be more to come from the famously hard-charging Smith and his team of prosecutors, who put together an otherwise highly detailed 49-page indictment.

Smith might still decide against bringing a separate indictment for dissemination, because such a move could be painted as overcharging. The government usually tries to avoid being seen as piling on, at least in such a high-profile matter. But if Cannon acts consistently with her prior Trump-friendly rulings, which were twice found by unanimous panels of conservative appellate judges to be both factually and legally flawed, Smith might go looking for another way to ensure accountability—and another venue where he could do so.

 

 

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Posted
32 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Yea. To be clear, I was genuinely taking your word. I know they do law enforcement for the Dept of Treasury, but I wasn't sure of the special considerations for security details.

 

Doesn't really matter, but Secret Service is part of the Department of Homeland Security, and has been for about twenty years.

Posted
1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Strong rope. Climbing rope. 

Nope...climbing rope is dynamic. You want a static rope so that it snaps his neck.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, otisdog said:

Nope...climbing rope is dynamic. You want a static rope so that it snaps his neck.

Climbing rope is not made for shock loads. It’s as likely to snap as stretch under that condition.  And it can’t even stretch very much at the length required for this application. 

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, G650 said:

I realize people want this to be true. The whole "its a cult" and whatnot. But the fact is a plurality of the country are shitty people. The genie isn't going back in the bottle anytime soon. One charismatic dictator is all it takes.

There have always been Wallace voters, and there will always be a Wallace.

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

All this being said, the Republican Party currently has no real plan to attract new voters, they just rehash the same old bullshit to target these three groups.  Well, if these 3 groups are shrinking, that bodes well for the future.  

Luckily the Republicans are still scared of that Che poster they saw in a college dorm. Otherwise they'd realize that despite the revolutions, authoritarianism has been the favorite ice cream flavor in Latin America for 500 years. But dammit that lady spoke Spanish to her mom in Walmart.

Edited by RDCanecutter
jijo.
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Posted
5 minutes ago, otisdog said:

Nope...climbing rope is dynamic. You want a static rope so that it snaps his neck.

dragging it out for a while would work too

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