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SmokeyBear1861

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10 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I don’t think it’s wholly biased and overly simplistic. Israel allowed a defeated enemy (PLO) to return to Gaza and the West Bank. In exchange, they asked for no more violence. The PLO, now regrouped as the PA, could not stop the terrorist attacks. Palestinians point to settlements to absolve terrorism. Which again, is not the only way to deal with occupation or oppression. 

I'm not waving away the violence and terrorism of Palestinian groups on Israeli civilians. It's a stupid, inhuman, and ineffective way to combat oppression and occupation perpetrated by the Israeli government. I will also argue that the Israeli government oppressing/occupying Palestinians, along with allowing (encouraging?) the expansion of settlements in the West Bank is also a stupid, inhuman, and ineffective way to combat violence and terrorism perpetrated by Palestinian groups.

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Cant say I fully agree with this strategy, but maybe, just maybe this is the start of pullback from the younger generation posting shit online without fully understanding what they agreed to post.

Or it turns the Harvard Palestine Posters into pariah's.  

either way, someone has made a very large, very public, fuck around and find out button for every officer of the harvard student groups who co-signed the "its all Israel's fault" statement.

Quote

A “doxxing truck” is driving around the campus of Harvard University with digital billboards that display the names and photos of students who allegedly signed a letter blaming Israel for Hamas’ violent attack that killed more than 1,200 people over the weekend.

Giant video screens hung on the sides and back of the truck display the words “Harvard’s Leading Antisemites” in gothic script over a slideshow of Ivy Leaguers’ headshots and names in bold, red block letters, according to photos on social media.

Nonprofit news watchdog Accuracy in Media was behind the truck, which showed the students involved in the 34 student groups that signed a letter saying Israel is “entirely responsible” for Hamas’ deadly attack on Saturday.

The truck’s surprise appearance around campus on Wednesday “was the first day [of a] multi-day, multi-pronged campaign involving multiple billboards and a variety of other tactics,” Accuracy in Media president Adam Guillette told The Post.

The group deployed the truck because it’s “incredibly important to know who the hateful antisemites are in our society. And it’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences,” Guillette said in an interview with The Post.

 

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

I hate that our arguments on this conflict tend to devolve into "Well what should _____ do then?" because none of us have an adequate answer.

I expressed that several pages ago but it isn't what most people wanna hear

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16 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Cant say I fully agree with this strategy, but maybe, just maybe this is the start of pullback from the younger generation posting shit online without fully understanding what they agreed to post.

Or it turns the Harvard Palestine Posters into pariah's.  

either way, someone has made a very large, very public, fuck around and find out button for every officer of the harvard student groups who co-signed the "its all Israel's fault" statement.

 

It's unsavory, but I assume they all used their real names in signing the letter and are all legal adults. Now, if some of them hadn't actually signed it, then, yeah, that's a problem.

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1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

An interesting interview of the Palestinian Ambassador to Britain on BBC. it’s on TikTok. I’m sure it can be found elsewhere. 
 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8rvxc6n/

Interesting interview. I think he made good points and picked up steam about halfway in. It was not a great look to avoid condemning Hamas though, IMO.

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3 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

the jerusalem post is confirming it.  

 

The Israeli PM  account has horrific photos up that I will not repost here.  And yes, “it’s AI” has already been thrown out there.  And, it’s important that even BEFORE this was confirmed by credible outlets, several times, the “atrocity propagandist” people relied only on IDF refusals to confirm as evidence it didn’t happen. I should also put out here that the same folks who accuse Israel of creating propaganda also are ready to entirely rely on IDF non-denials when it suits their agenda. And I’d say it’s important to ask why some actors are so desperate for this not to be true that they look for the smallest crack to turn into a ravine. 
 

A few thoughts on this and atrocity propaganda:

1. Hamas’ social media managers took great care to film, create, and distribute video evidence of their atrocities. I cannot for the life of me understand the scramble to deny them their efforts.  Nearly all of the most shocking and horrifying footage from the first day came from Hamas’ operatives and not Israel or the media.  It only got walked back after they realized the tremendous blowback they received.  
 

2. For @GW Hayduke, it’s fair to criticize me if you think that my info sanitation is not good enough. But if you’re doing it based on Ana’s inputs, really think again because only one of us has a history of engaging in even remotely good faith on this board. 

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12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And I’d say it’s important to ask why some actors are so desperate for this not to be true that they look for the smallest crack to turn into a ravine.

You can fuck right off with your bullshit insinuations. Being cautious in the immediate aftermath to not immediately accept as fact stories that mirror well-worn atrocity propaganda doesn’t indicate any agenda other than restraint.  Hamas killed hundreds of innocent people including women and children and that’s a heinous crime. 

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1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

You can fuck right off with your bullshit insinuations. Being cautious in the immediate aftermath to not immediately accept as fact stories that mirror well-worn atrocity propaganda doesn’t indicate any agenda other than restraint.  Hamas killed hundreds of innocent people including women and children and that’s a heinous crime. 

I think the issue here is that you can have both (1) people honestly wanting to weed out inaccurate information in a time when it is prevalent, and (2) people wanting to do anything to hurt the credibility of Israel.  Unfortunately, criticisms directed at (2) can look a lot like criticisms directed at (1). I don't think @956 Worldwide's intent is to denigrate the former and I think he understands the need and want for accurate information. 

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An American activist group has shut down a local Elbit Systems facility in Massachusetts in protest of the fighting in the Middle East.

"Right now, Israel is using Elbit's weapons to massacre thousands of Palestinian men, women and children," an activist with the liberal organization CODEPINK said outside an arms manufacturing facility in Cambridge on Thursday.

Elbit Systems, an Israel-based international defense electronics company, is the largest weapons supplier to Israel. The company's American subsidiary, Elbit Systems of America, has operational facilities in Texas, New Hampshire, Alabama, Virginia and Florida, according to the company's website. The Cambridge Innovation Center was opened in December 2021 as part of the company's recent expansion, which also included the opening of facilities in Chicago, San Fransisco and Merrimack, New Hampshire.
...
Codepink has vocally supported the Palestinian cause since the fighting erupted on October 7, participating in several pro-Palestine rallies and calling on the U.S. to halt military aid to Israel.

"Israel has cut off food, water, electricity, and any sort of aid from reaching Gaza. They've also bombed the only way to get out. This is a genocide being carried out with US military backing," the organization wrote in a post on X, formerly Twitter, on Wednesday.

The protesters seen outside of the Elbit facility on Thursday said they chose to take action "because we live in beautiful, comfortable, white utopias, like Cambridge" and because "we also want to be an example that there's genuine anti-imperialist actions to take within our own communities."
...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israels-biggest-weapons-supplier-elbit-systems-targeted/ar-AA1i6H8A

 

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6 minutes ago, G650 said:

Who exactly are these people? I haven't seen anyone remotely trying to do this regarding this attack.

For starters, Hamas. I don't think @956 Worldwide is necessarily implying it is anyone on this thread. I mean, twitter right now is full of misinformation that is designed to make Israel look bad. You aren't actually suggesting that isn't happening, are you? 

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1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

For starters, Hamas. I don't think @956 Worldwide is necessarily implying it is anyone on this thread. I mean, twitter right now is full of misinformation that is designed to make Israel look bad. You aren't actually suggesting that isn't happening, are you? 

Um, alright. I was just considering posters in this thread, but yeah, I agree Hamas definitely is and I actually deleted Twitter because it's utility fell off a cliff.

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9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I think the issue here is that you can have both (1) people honestly wanting to weed out inaccurate information in a time when it is prevalent, and (2) people wanting to do anything to hurt the credibility of Israel.  Unfortunately, criticisms directed at (2) can look a lot like criticisms directed at (1). I don't think @956 Worldwide's intent is to denigrate the former and I think he understands the need and want for accurate information. 

That’s not at all how I read his body of work on the Israel threads. 

And as G650 implied above, category (2) is a null set on Surly as far as I can tell. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

For starters, Hamas. I don't think @956 Worldwide is necessarily implying it is anyone on this thread.

You’re too generous. Unless Hamas is tweeting about atrocity propaganda, 956 is clearly talking about those of us on these threads who have pointed out that it’s a well documented phenomenon and thus people should consider withholding judgment on sensational details until the dust settles a bit. 

Edited by BrickHorn
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1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

You’re too generous. Unless Hamas is tweeting about atrocity propaganda, 956 is clearly talking about those of us on these threads who have pointed out that it’s a well documented phenomenon and thus people should consider withholding judgment on sensational details until the dust settles a bit. 

You've made great points. Longhornmatt has also made good points, to which you negged him, which seemed petty.

Admitting that in the immediate fog of war and age of dis/misinformation that one should not readily accept things at face value and that attrocity propaganda is a powerful tool, at this point, is it controversial to admit that Hamas was beheading babies, with the confirmations we've seen thus far? Can you acknowledge it and the implications thereof?

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3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Longhornmatt has also made good points, to which you negged him, which seemed petty.

I negged him because it’s ludicrous to insinuate that anyone is letting this drag out “indefinitely” when the events happened, what, 3 days ago? That’s not a serious criticism at this time. 

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6 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Admitting that in the immediate fog of war and age of dis/misinformation that one should not readily accept things at face value and that attrocity propaganda is a powerful tool, at this point, is it controversial to admit that Hamas was beheading babies, with the confirmations we've seen thus far? Can you acknowledge it and the implications thereof?

What I’ve seen from the news today are conflicting reports. Which is completely unsurprising. 

What I will acknowledge is that it appears completely unambiguous that Hamas murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, including women and children. And that is more than sufficient for me to condemn them as an organization and to hope for retribution.

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9 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You’re too generous. Unless Hamas is tweeting about atrocity propaganda, 956 is clearly talking about those of us on these threads who have pointed out that it’s a well documented phenomenon and thus people should consider withholding judgment on sensational details until the dust settles a bit. 

And I think you're taking it too personal. He made general comments regarding atrocity deniers the same way you've made comments about atrocity propaganda. I haven't interpreted his posts to be direct attacks on anyone in this thread. I'm sure @956 Worldwide would be willing clarify. To me, the argument on this thread appears to be a misunderstanding. 

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3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I negged him because it’s ludicrous to insinuate that anyone is letting this drag out “indefinitely” when the events happened, what, 3 days ago? That’s not a serious criticism at this time. 

Fair, but at the risk of putting more appropriate words in his mouth (for this discussion at least), he was exaggerating for effect about the opposite of attrocity propaganda porn, which is denial propaganda and hanging on by a fingernail to plausible deniability until 100% of the million rows of data in the dataset are confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt or whatever. I'm not saying you are doing that, but that's why I asked you directly the question I asked you (to which I just saw your answer; thank you).

Edited by BeardIP
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2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

And I think you're taking it too personal. He made general comments regarding atrocity deniers the same way you've made comments about atrocity propaganda. I haven't interpreted his posts to be direct attacks on anyone in this thread. I'm sure @956 Worldwide would be willing clarify. To me, the argument on this thread appears to be a misunderstanding. 

This is how I read it as well. 

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NSIAP

https://www.ft.com/content/50f33279-d637-426c-bb8b-3ce3965c14f3?accessToken=zwAGB4qV2Udwkc9Q8zJ51jdCbNO7izzjllwU8w.MEQCIGSas8pZHWM4AgChRWgO6kIm2iI31NexQVlEc9UYtbp_AiBTbsHvdgSOaHhtRNPTstflzDKL0_xVRhJXNOWXaclWzQ&sharetype=gift&token=3a310e0e-9840-457c-b82a-d690cf22347f

Quote


I look at people’s faces and see shock. Numbness. Our hearts are weighed down by constant burden. Over and over again we say to each other: it’s a nightmare. A nightmare beyond comparison. No words to describe it. No words to contain it. I also see a deep sense of betrayal. The betrayal of citizens by their government — by the prime minister and his destructive coalition. A betrayal of all we hold precious as citizens, and in particular as citizens of this state. A betrayal of its formative, and binding, idea. Of the most precious deposit of all — the Jewish people’s national home — which has been handed to its leaders to safeguard, and which they should have treated with reverence. But instead, what have we seen? What have we grown accustomed to seeing, as though it were inevitable?

What we’ve seen is the utter abandonment of the state in favour of petty, greedy agendas and cynical, narrow-minded, delirious politics. What is happening now is the concrete price Israel is paying for having been seduced for years by a corrupt leadership which drove it downhill from bad to worse; which eroded its institutions of law and justice, its military, its education system; which was willing to place it in existential danger in order to keep its prime minister out of prison. I also see a deep sense of betrayal. The betrayal of citizens by their government — by the prime minister and his destructive coalition Just think now of what we collaborated with for years. Think of all the energy, thought and money we wasted on watching Netanyahu and his family play out their Ceaușescu-style dramas.

Think of the grotesque illusions they produced for our disbelieving eyes. In the past nine months, millions of Israelis took to the streets every week to protest against the government and the man at its head. It was a movement of huge significance, an attempt to get Israel back on course, back to the lofty notion at the roots of its existence: creating a home for the Jewish people. And not just any home. Millions of Israelis wanted to build a liberal, democratic, peace-loving state that respects the faith of all people. But instead of listening to what the protest movement had to offer, Netanyahu chose to discredit it, to depict it as traitorous, to incite against it, to deepen the hatred among its factors. Yet he took every opportunity to declare how powerful Israel was, how determined, and above all — how well-prepared it was to face any threat.

Tell that to the parents driven mad with grief, to the baby thrown on the side of the road. Tell that to the hostages. Tell that to the people who voted for you. Tell it to the 80 breaches in the most advanced border fence in the world. But make no mistake, and do not be confused: with all the fury at Netanyahu and his people and his policies, the horror of these past few days was not caused by Israel. It was effected by Hamas. The occupation is a crime, but to shoot hundreds of civilians — children and parents, elderly and sick in cold blood — that is a worse crime. Even in the hierarchy of evil, there is a “ranking”. There is a scale of severity that common sense and natural instincts can identify. And when you see the killing fields of the music festival site, when you see Hamas terrorists on motorcycles chasing young partiers, some of whom are still dancing without realising what’s going on . . .  I do not know whether Hamas operatives should be called “animals”, but they have undoubtedly lost their humanity.

 

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1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

He’s welcome to do so.

Well, for one, I was accused by a poster on this board (not you) of being a “fan of disinformation campaigns” when I originally posted this information from a credible outlet. And then when I posted a fucking POTUS quote, the same poster accused me of circulating “atrocity propaganda.” And as it’s slowly being confirmed and  there hasn’t been a race to admit that those original allegations of circulating disinformation were bullshit. 

That’s not you, and information sanitation is important. It’s also fair to have sensors up when the calls to be careful about believing stuff are only directed towards one side. And when the calls to be careful are based on spurious reasoning, like “be careful, this reporter is Jewish.” 

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1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

I think the issue here is that you can have both (1) people honestly wanting to weed out inaccurate information in a time when it is prevalent, and (2) people wanting to do anything to hurt the credibility of Israel.  Unfortunately, criticisms directed at (2) can look a lot like criticisms directed at (1). I don't think @956 Worldwide's intent is to denigrate the former and I think he understands the need and want for accurate information. 

I would go a step further and say I'm not taking anything at face value that has come out of this conflict so far, and I would go as far to say that presenting the Israeli PM twitter account as a credible source for information is foolish, at this junction, when you consider who the PM of Israel is. How much credence did we give "From the Office of the President" communiques when Trump was in office? Propaganda runs deep, Hamas and Israel alike know how to utilize it well. I cannot trust the offices of Benjamin Netanyahu to give me credible information any more than I can trust Hamas' leadership to do the same.

I know one thing for sure, that until credible news sources start widely reporting it with corroborating evidence that goes beyond hearsay, I'm not going to take the reports of mass child beheadings at the kibbutz or whatever at face value, when the White House has walked back claims that Biden saw the photos for example. I'm not saying Hamas hasn't committed atrocities, I'm sure they have. The reason it's important is that this kind of propaganda is very commonly used to justify genocidal action or other kind of escalating warmongering throughout history. I always think back to the Kuwaiti babies lie that was used as a justification for the Gulf War when stuff like this comes up.

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9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I would go a step further and say I'm not taking anything at face value that has come out of this conflict so far, and I would go as far to say that presenting the Israeli PM twitter account as a credible source for information is foolish, at this junction, when you consider who the PM of Israel is. How much credence did we give "From the Office of the President" communiques when Trump was in office?

Este

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3 hours ago, bolverk said:

It's unsavory, but I assume they all used their real names in signing the letter and are all legal adults. Now, if some of them hadn't actually signed it, then, yeah, that's a problem.

There are reports that some of the groups never saw the statement before it went out with their signatures. I think members of those groups -- not simply officers -- are being doxxed as well because their group signed the petition. Those people never saw it either.

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11 minutes ago, C-Man said:

There are reports that some of the groups never saw the statement before it went out with their signatures. I think members of those groups -- not simply officers -- are being doxxed as well because their group signed the petition. Those people never saw it either.

Thanks for the clarification and adding more context. My reaction was based simply on that one post.

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35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, for one, I was accused by a poster on this board (not you) of being a “fan of disinformation campaigns” when I originally posted this information from a credible outlet. And then when I posted a fucking POTUS quote, the same poster accused me of circulating “atrocity propaganda.” And as it’s slowly being confirmed and  there hasn’t been a race to admit that those original allegations of circulating disinformation were bullshit. 

That’s not you, and information sanitation is important. It’s also fair to have sensors up when the calls to be careful about believing stuff are only directed towards one side. And when the calls to be careful are based on spurious reasoning, like “be careful, this reporter is Jewish.” 

Yeah, that's not an accurate depiction of how that went and I have no idea what you are referring to with the "be careful, this reporter is Jewish" bit, but it certainly did not come from anything I posted. Sorry you ran here to push out a tweet and that the WH had to walk back what Biden said because it didn't hang with reality. 

Edited by Anastasis
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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, that's not an accurate depiction of how that went and I have no idea what you are referring to with the "be careful, this reporter is Jewish" bit, but it certainly did not come from anything I posted. Sorry you ran here to push out a tweet and that the WH had to walk back what Biden said because it didn't hang with reality. 

I was accused of pointing out that a reporter was jewish even though I thought he/she was a Briton and had no knowledge of their religion, either. People are just way too on edge about this topic.

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I was accused of pointing out that a reporter was jewish even though I thought he/she was a Briton and had no knowledge of their religion, either. People are just way too on edge about this topic.

OK, well that had nothing to do with me and nothing to do with my exchange with 956, so one might wonder why he is suggesting that it did. 

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2 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

That’s pretty weak.  The issue is whether credible news sources corroborate it and report it as fact, not whether it’s been 3 days or 3 hours.

That’s a pretty naive view of how this works. “Credible news sources” often spread propaganda, even if unwittingly. Shit gets sorted out eventually, but it takes time. 

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1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

I was accused of pointing out that a reporter was jewish even though I thought he/she was a Briton and had no knowledge of their religion, either. People are just way too on edge about this topic.

I saw that one and it was ridiculous. Although, I once made out with my girlfriend during Schiendlers List so my opinion might not be appreciated.

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Babies decapitated by man with semi automatic rifle in the near east : turn it into glass!

Babies decapitated by man with semi automatic rifle in Texas : nothing can be done

Go ahead and level the house of the murderer in Texas as well.
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