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Why won’t we fight misinformation, teach critical thinking skills?


Satchel
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Media education in the US will be like any other government subsidized education here.  If the people at the steering wheel in your state start with the presumption that it’s viable and are willing to fund its operation and let the experts run it, it will be good to great.  If the people in control instead start with the presumption that it’s unviable and work to control the curriculum and defund it’s operation, it will surely suck.  The national government isn’t really an option because group 2 will be in control again at some point and undo anything group 1 did previously.


 Tl:dr what works in Finland isn’t necessarily going to work here where one of our two parties actively uses misinformation and strives for a dumber, less educated populace so their misinformation goes unchallenged in the minds of the masses.

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Yeah, but does Finland have a voucher system? How do they funnel tax money to companies that write high-stakes tests? What about CRT and grooming?

Seems like Finland really needs to get its priorities straight.
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I’m not optimistic it would help. I work everyday with CEO’s who run companies of hundreds of millions and billions in revenue, and they all have advanced degrees from top universities. Many actually believe Trump’s bullshit and other misinformation. If they can’t figure it out…

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France does this too. I posted about it a few years ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/technology/france-internet-literacy-school.html

 

New Jersey just passed a law requiring it and will be the first in the US. Of course, Fox News is up in arms about it.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/parents-concerned-new-jerseys-media-literacy-class-students-weaponized-political-power

 

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8 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Half the country is in an anti-democratic brainwashed theocracy loving cult, and increasing “critical thinking” doesn’t help the cults enrollment numbers. 

And don’t forget half can’t afford taxes for the little bit of shit we do get.  

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1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

The same fucking reason we don’t provide medical care and education to our population. Half the country is in an anti-democratic brainwashed theocracy loving cult, and increasing “critical thinking” doesn’t help the cults enrollment numbers. 

And advertising companies want those clicks and Fox News and CNN and the others want those clicks on the website and those eyeballs watching in the evenings, and the financial companies want you making stupid decisions.

And it's not new, it's just a lot more pervasive.  Too many companies in this country rely on misinformation.  You're browsing a website or twitter, and up pops a story about some celebrity with a tagline or "did you know these celebrities are gay" (and the celebrity pictured is not, which is why it caught your attention) and you get linked to a listicle site where 70% of the page is ads and there's one celebrity on each page, or a photo of a nice house with a tagline of "thousands of Americans are eligible for zero-interest housing loans, find out if you're eligible" and then it pushes you into a bunch of websites with lots of ads, and you never get what you are after, and if you're an idiot, you've even given them some of your information.

It's just like when 18 year-olds out of high school get flooded with credit card applications or car loans, or 18 or 19 year-olds just out of basic training in the military getting flooded with the same stuff.

Just way too much money being made off of conning people into poor decisions, whether it's with advertisers/spammings getting them to click on an endless rabbit hole of stupid gossip, or getting young people into credit card or car loans that have interest rates meant to keep you paying for many years to come.

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The Biden administration folded like a cheap suit on this effort after the right squealed like a pig.

The Department of Homeland Security and the White House are defending a new initiative to help target disinformation amid fierce criticism from Republicans who cast the effort as overreach and attacked its leader. 

Last week, DHS announced an interagency team, dubbed the “Disinformation Governance Board,” to coordinate department activities related to disinformation aimed at the US population and infrastructure. Nina Jankowicz, a disinformation expert with experience working on Ukraine and Russia issues, was tapped to helm the board, along with two senior DHS officials, including acting Principal Deputy General Counsel Jen Daskal.

Jankowicz’s appointment quickly drew condemnation from GOP lawmakers and right-wing media, who pointed to her past tweets and statements regarding Hunter Biden’s laptop and Christopher Steele, the author of the so-called Steele Dossier

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1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Getting closer and closer to Johnny every day.

I mean it is an easy talking point, and maybe a bit of a cop out, but it's also verily true.

Being a "melting pot" has some advantages, but fostering trust among the citizenry is not one of them.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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21 minutes ago, Captainant said:

MFW the Texas republican party platform specifically targeted critical thinking as a danger in schools because it "undermines parental control". Happened back in 2012 lol. It's too bad there's not a thread on surly anymore that we could go back to to see everyone saying folks are overreacting 

 

Edit: this was the specific text

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Godalmighty.

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43 minutes ago, Captainant said:

MFW the Texas republican party platform specifically targeted critical thinking as a danger in schools because it "undermines parental control". Happened back in 2012 lol. It's too bad there's not a thread on shaggy anymore that we could go back to to see everyone saying folks are overreacting 

 

Edit: this was the specific text

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Exactly.  In a few years when American History textbooks are written that include information about the Trump presidency, what are those textbooks going to say in Texas vs Colorado?   What is going to be taught in government and civics about January 6th in Florida vs California?

 

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15 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The same fucking reason we don’t provide medical care and education to our population. Half the country is in an anti-democratic brainwashed theocracy loving cult, and increasing “critical thinking” doesn’t help the cults enrollment numbers. 

Seriously our own state’s GOP has a formal position against critical thinking. If there’s a hurdle bigger than that one, I’ve yet to see it.

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Just now, hpslugga said:

Seriously our own state’s GOP has a formal position against critical thinking. If there’s a hurdle bigger than that one, I’ve yet to see it.

FWIW they've since updated the platform to say they ACKSHUALLY do care about critical thinking, but I'll believe a fascist when they tell me who they are

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32 minutes ago, Goredho said:

In a few years when American History textbooks are written that include information about the Trump presidency, what are those textbooks going to say in Texas vs Colorado?  

That Texas actually won the 2001 Big XII championship game.

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58 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean it is an easy talking point, and maybe a bit of a cop out, but it's also verily true.

Being a "melting pot" has some advantages, but fostering trust among the citizenry is not one of them.

But the subject wasn't about broadly fostering trust among citizenry, it was just about whether or not we can teach kids better media literacy. So the implication that Finland is only able to do it because it's small and homogeneous is really an implication that Finland can do it because white kids are smart enough to learn, and certain others aren't.

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30 minutes ago, Captainant said:

FWIW they've since updated the platform to say they ACKSHUALLY do care about critical thinking, but I'll believe a fascist when they tell me who they are

Yes they updated it much in the same way chicken restaurants replace the word “fried” with “crispy.”

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18 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

But the subject wasn't about broadly fostering trust among citizenry, it was just about whether or not we can teach kids better media literacy.

Links on the thread so far are to msnbc, cnn, Fox, and the NYTimes. I am happy to teach my kids about media literacy. I don’t want clowns like you writing the lessons and the curriculum.

Edited by Anastasis
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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Links on the thread so far are to msnbc, cnn, Fox, and the NYTimes. I am happy to teach my kids about media literacy. I don’t want clowns like you writing the lessons and the curriculum.

That's a cute redirect. You're still slightly ashamed when the racism slips out, so maybe there's still hope you won't become Johnny.

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Because without and angry and misinformed population the Republican Party doesn't have a chance...  Hell that's why colleges are so fucking dangerous to the GOP. Any sort of critical thinking is a negative.  Why do you think folks are so intent on banning books they have never read at local School Board meetings now? The dumb and misinformed are the people that Republicans WANT as the gatekeepers of information and critical thinking.  That's fucking sad, that it is so fucking accurate.

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Just now, wildcat09 said:

That's a cute redirect. You're still slightly ashamed when the racism slips out, so maybe there's still hope you won't become Johnny.

You got one drum and you beat it. Maybe one day you will realize that your obvious projection speaks to your own bias and not that of others. 

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28 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

But the subject wasn't about broadly fostering trust among citizenry, it was just about whether or not we can teach kids better media literacy. So the implication that Finland is only able to do it because it's small and homogeneous is really an implication that Finland can do it because white kids are smart enough to learn, and certain others aren't.

Well, that's fair.  But one of the driving issues behind education policy failure is that we can't reach a consensus on it, even at the local levels, because of high distrust among the citizenry.  Which of course stems in part from disinformation/lack of critical thinking.

I mean that horrific statement above from the Texas GOP just reeks of "can you trust these people to educate your children"?

Ouroboros Miniatures

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spacer.png

https://www.surlyhorns.com/board/topic/1747-george-clayton-republican-candidate-for-texas-state-board-of-education/?do=findComment&comment=106290

I remember a thread in years past that included a quote from a member of the SBOE at the time who was being critical of Texas schools teaching critical thinking skills.  I can't find it, so it's likely from the old site, which doesn't appear to exist any more, so the above is the best proxy I could find.

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4 minutes ago, bernorange said:

spacer.png

https://www.surlyhorns.com/board/topic/1747-george-clayton-republican-candidate-for-texas-state-board-of-education/?do=findComment&comment=106290

I remember a thread in years past that included a quote from a member of the SBOE at the time who was being critical of Texas schools teaching critical thinking skills.  I can't find it, so it's likely from the old site, which doesn't appear to exist any more, so the above is the best proxy I could find.

Well this is what they had in their platform statement back in 2012:

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Of course, as previously mentioned, they’ve since scrubbed this off their main website and put something more tempered in its place…but who the fuck are they kidding? We’re supposed to believe that the 2023 Texas GOP is a more intellectual lot than their 2012 counterparts?

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11 minutes ago, Satchel said:

I don’t understand how anybody can believe a kid being able to reason his/her to the truth about Hillary Clinton eating babies is a bad thing.

They’re expected to believe it. They’re not supposed to ask for proof. 

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24 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They’re expected to believe it. They’re not supposed to ask for proof. 

Yup. You’re dealing with really repugnant stuff when dabbling in the whole required beliefs/prohibited beliefs thing. 

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25 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They’re expected to believe it. They’re not supposed to ask for proof. 

The downside of belief unmoored from fact is it is invulnerable to disproof.

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29 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

They’re expected to believe it. They’re not supposed to ask for proof. 

Yep. They’re being taught to believe what they are told by “authority.” as long as what they are being told is the “right stuff” by the “right people.” Hence the banning of critical thinking skills

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because the unwashed masses have been useful tools for all people in power forever. 

until they aren;t and they kill all the people in power. then they become the people in power and find the unwashed masses useful tools once again.

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6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Yep. They’re being taught to believe what they are told by “authority.” as long as what they are being told is the “right stuff” by the “right people.” Hence the banning of critical thinking skills

It's a matter of arrogance, on both sides. It's about being so totally certain in the dismissal of the possibilities contrary to their interpretations and beliefs. "It's "blind certainty", a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up." @Neonmoon is the ignorant-cum-certain premiere example, if you wanted to read up on what it looks like.

Everyone should read or watch "This is Water" by David Foster Wallace at least once a year as a sort of annual mental health check-up or prevention.

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8 hours ago, Captainant said:

MFW the Texas republican party platform specifically targeted critical thinking as a danger in schools because it "undermines parental control". Happened back in 2012 lol. It's too bad there's not a thread on shaggy anymore that we could go back to to see everyone saying folks are overreacting 

 

Edit: this was the specific text

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

LOLz.  I thought that was a fun part of parenting.  Dinner table and road trip conversations about what we learned today and how that fits with what we thought yesterday.  Seriously. That's what education is, IMHO.

Folks could stand to be a little more confident in their own beliefs and the examples they set for their kids.  That bullshit right there is just fear mongering.  It's hard for me to believe sometimes these idiots were smart enough to even fuck in the first place...

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Imagine being crowd sourced three times, returning each time to spew hate, misinformation, and derision yet still have the gall to accuse other of being arrogant. 
This will be the 4th handle of yours I’ve put on ignore. Goodbye and good luck 

Yep. I still have yet to hear a good explanation for why this fucking imbecil is allowed back. Mods? Immamac? Care to take a crack at that?
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3 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:


Yep. I still have yet to hear a good explanation for why this fucking imbecil is allowed back. Mods? Immamac? Care to take a crack at that?

It's not as if he's trying to hide it.

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chatgpt/AI are going to cause lots of disruption in education. Most institutions will panic and protect obviously, but I am genuinely interested in following those that reinvent. Regardless of if public school, uni, org or other type of organization that is educating en masse. 

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8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

And David Foster Wallace was fairly widely criticized as being a misogynist, despite the hero worship.

I think he was really more a misanthrope than anything.  An equal-opportunity hater.

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32 minutes ago, staboner said:

chatgpt/AI are going to cause lots of disruption in education. Most institutions will panic and protect obviously, but I am genuinely interested in following those that reinvent. Regardless of if public school, uni, org or other type of organization that is educating en masse. 

this is a topic i care about quite a bit, as you know, but i will find it interesting in the new paradigm.

you know what i do and what i cover, and how fucking interesting it has been with covid affecting everyone, which has caused all kinds of branches of innovation that we might have been already there but unable to previously flower.

we're doing all sorts of shit from home, and learning is the next horizon. i'll be especially interested in how public schools innovate, because it has become more than clear to me than ever that daily education, and hell, the daily fucking workday, is simply a model based around childcare. that's it. it might have started as something different, but i don't really think so.

however, my kids have learned all kinds of shit in school. however, we've had a situation that we're dealing with my youngest where he just cannot go to high school. yet he's somehow pulling a b in some classes? so it's clear that school is about more than what is being taught in the classroom.

this sounds stupid, but think about harry potter. yeah, the setting is the school but almost nothing happens in the classroom. sure, it's used for a demo or two, but all their major learning is done through real world application. 

that's the model i think we need to see evolve. practical education that prizes, oh, i don't know, education over behavior and attendance and sitting in your desk for x amount of minutes being quiet. kids today simply are not inured to a world of quiet, and guess what? that's fucking okay, because neither are adults. they need to learn to operate in this noisy world somehow. they need to learn with screens and an online world. when i was in school you'd get in trouble for looking things up on the internet. now that seems fucking crazy. if it's on the internet, 9 times out of 10, with actual factual things, it's true. i tell my kids to google stuff all the time. fuck a dictionary or an encyclopedia. they don't need to waste time with those skills.

but it also comes with helping kids to develop a meaningful bullshit filter, and i think it is working. even older teachers are pretty fucking hip to what the kids are into these days. if we could just catch up education from the 18th century, it would be great.

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