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Cairn Horn88

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7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, looking at their pardon and parole board site, it appears that Georgia is heavily dependent on parole.  They don't pardon and commute sentences, because you can't get a pardon until you have completed your sentence, plus five.

Neither, apparently, will they commute a sentence without a pardon, as the feds can do.  They just grant parole, that's it.

 

Under their community supervision statute, they specifically reference split-sentences, i.e., serve 5, c/s for 7.  So it's not parole.  We don't see that quite as much in Texas outside of "shock probation."  Here, you're more likely to get deferred, straight c/s with suspended sentence, or prison.

In the GA statute, see Section 42, Ch. 3. et seq.

Edited by dcbc
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2 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Trump said the 2016 election was rigged, after he had won it. The point is to make everyone think that elections are worthless. 

This.  The ultimate goal of Trumpism is to live unfettered by the Rule of Law.  In order to accomplish that goal, they first have to destroy the Rule of Law and all faith in it.  They've made some real fucking headway in that regard, too -- let's not kid ourselves.

But yes, the ultimate goal is to make elections into "elections" - the version in quotes is the version that saw people like Saddam Hussein win every "election" with anywhere from 99.96% to 100% of the vote.  

Trump and the MAGAts have tried -- using multiple criminal acts -- to undermine nearly every element of a law and rules-based constitutional republic.  In any other time, in any other country, our gallows-builders would be super-busy.

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17 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Serving 2 of the mandatory 5 is probation, in the general sense of not serving detention.   Not sure what you mean. 

I'm no lawyer, but I thought probation was a non-jail sentence of a certain term, whereas serving 2 years of 5 would be considered "parole"?

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1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's a bug, not a feature. I don't like spouses acting as unofficial #2. This isn't Argentina or Texas under the Fergusons. I don't want Chasten Buttigieg acting as shadow secretary of Transportation or assistant President in the event that Pete becomes our second openly gay President, and I was likewise never comfortable with the idea of a former president sitting over in the East Wing with the ability to lobby the current head of the executive branch from the other side of the bed. It also demeaned the significance of a woman being elected President. 

What’s Edith Wilson gotta do to get some credit?

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  The ultimate goal of Trumpism is to live unfettered by the Rule of Law.  In order to accomplish that goal, they first have to destroy the Rule of Law and all faith in it.  They've made some real fucking headway in that regard, too -- let's not kid ourselves.

But yes, the ultimate goal is to make elections into "elections" - the version in quotes is the version that saw people like Saddam Hussein win every "election" with anywhere from 99.96% to 100% of the vote.  

Trump and the MAGAts have tried -- using multiple criminal acts -- to undermine nearly every element of a law and rules-based constitutional republic.  In any other time, in any other country, our gallows-builders would be super-busy.

He also started in very early with the whole "fake news" and "enemy of the people" stuff. Followed shortly by "Don't believe what you see and hear, believe what I tell you" or whatever that was. I wonder who gave him this playbook because he didn't come up with all of that himself naturally. 

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10 minutes ago, Pancho said:

So CNN is saying the trump team is going to try to get this moved to Federal, and they have a good shot of that happening. 

@TwiceHorn and others? 

I do not practice in criminal law, but I do understand that there is a federal removal statute that is implicated when the state criminal charging event concerns matters when the defendant was a federal employee or elected federal official.  

Fine.  DC is a solid venue.  

Edited by Gatorubet
venue is WAG. I don’t really know
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16 minutes ago, Pancho said:

So CNN is saying the trump team is going to try to get this moved to Federal, and they have a good shot of that happening. 

@TwiceHorn and others? 

28 USC S1443.

"Removal is permitted of state criminal prosecuations against any person who is denied or cannot enforce in the courts of such State a right under any law providing for the equal civil rights of citizens of the United States, or of all persons within the jurisdiction thereof."

The Supreme Court has held that it "confers a privilege of removal only upon federal officers or agents and those authorized to act with or for them in affirmatively executing duties under any federal law providing for equal civil rights.” 

 

This is not my area of expertise, but I don't see anything in the allegations here that suggest that they were executing duties under any federal law whatsoever.  They'll argue they were trying to prevent election fraud, but even that ultimately is an issue of GA State law. 

 

As the Zen Master said, "We'll see."

Edited by dcbc
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Just now, dcbc said:

28 USC S1443.

"Removal is permitted of state criminal prosecuations against any person who is denied or cannot enforce in the courts of such State a right under any law providing for the equal civil rights of citizens of the United States, or of all persons within the jurisdiction thereof."

The Supreme Court has held that it ‘confers a privilege of removal only upon federal officers or agents and those authorized to act with or for them in affirmatively executing duties under any federal law providing for equal civil rights.” 

Explain It Season 5 GIF by The Office

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1 hour ago, Red Five said:

He also started in very early with the whole "fake news" and "enemy of the people" stuff. Followed shortly by "Don't believe what you see and hear, believe what I tell you" or whatever that was. I wonder who gave him this playbook because he didn't come up with all of that himself naturally. 

“What you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening,” Trump said.

For some, the quote immediately recalled a line from Orwell’s dystopian novel 1984: “The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

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12 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm no lawyer, but I thought probation was a non-jail sentence of a certain term, whereas serving 2 years of 5 would be considered "parole"?

In Georgia, Probation instead of imprisonment may be ordered by a court for all or part of a person's sentence. Probation is not parole. Parole may be granted only by the Parole Board after a person has served part of his sentence in prison.

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3 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Explain It Season 5 GIF by The Office

Where a Federal Officer is prosecuted in state court, he my move to remove the case from state to federal court if he committed the alleged conduct while executing his duties under a Federal law, which provides for equal civil rights.

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14 minutes ago, Pancho said:

So CNN is saying the trump team is going to try to get this moved to Federal, and they have a good shot of that happening. 

@TwiceHorn and others? 

Eh.  Maybe.

I don't doubt they'll try it.  To remove successfully, you have to allege and prove that the criminal conduct at issue was committed by a federal officer in furtherance of his duties as a federal officer.  And one of the more important aspects of that is that federal law provides a defense, like immunity or some such.

He tried it with the Manhattan case and failed at the trial court level but is appealing.  

This one is slightly better positioned because almost all of the conduct complained of occurred while he was in office, as opposed to the Manhattan case, where most of it didn't.

But there's also this concept of the "outer perimeter" of presidential duties, and the judge found that "paying porn stars hush money," however you want to characterize it, fell outside of that outer perimeter.

It is a little bit closer question whether "talking about an election" falls within or without that outer perimeter.

 

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1 minute ago, dcbc said:

Where a Federal Officer is prosecuted in state court, he my move to remove the case from state to federal court if he committed the alleged conduct while executing his duties under a Federal law, which provides for equal civil rights.

We saw this happen in Austin some years ago when a local APD officer went after a suspect and killed him.  The officer, at that time, was also on a "Federal task force" of some sort.  The court found that he was thus executing duties pursuant to federal law, and the case belonged in federal court (and based on the application of other federal law, the case against the cop was dismissed).

It's not an utterly irrational argument here.  We'll see.  It may also fall in the "be careful what you ask for" bucket, because the evidence (you know, the stuff the prosecution has a lot of, and Trump has none of) is gonna be pretty tough.

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4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Eh.  Maybe.

I don't doubt they'll try it.  To remove successfully, you have to allege and prove that the criminal conduct at issue was committed by a federal officer in furtherance of his duties as a federal officer.  And one of the more important aspects of that is that federal law provides a defense, like immunity or some such.

He tried it with the Manhattan case and failed at the trial court level but is appealing.  

This one is slightly better positioned because almost all of the conduct complained of occurred while he was in office, as opposed to the Manhattan case, where most of it didn't.

But there's also this concept of the "outer perimeter" of presidential duties, and the judge found that "paying porn stars hush money," however you want to characterize it, fell outside of that outer perimeter.

It is a little bit closer question whether "talking about an election" falls within or without that outer perimeter.

 

Also, we're talking about his alleged attempt to manipulate, er seek enforcement of, Georgia election laws.  What federal law is he supposedly acting under?

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5 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

In Georgia, Probation instead of imprisonment may be ordered by a court for all or part of a person's sentence. Probation is not parole. Parole may be granted only by the Parole Board after a person has served part of his sentence in prison.

I swear to God we're talking right past each other.  I was trying to ask if serving a 2 year term of a 5 year sentence would imply that the person was paroled at two years.  I never, ever said it was probation -- you did.

I give up.

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Just now, dcbc said:

Also, we're talking about his alleged attempt to manipulate Georgia election laws.  What federal law is he supposedly acting under?

There’s gotta be some murky gray area between him as a candidate and him as president, right? Yes he was president, but most of this was done is his campaign as a candidate for federal office.  If the shoe was on the other foot, would candidate Joe Biden be considered a federal officer? Is this more “preferential treatment” bc Trump was both and he’s going to hide behind the resolute desk yet again?

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5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Eh.  Maybe.

I don't doubt they'll try it.  To remove successfully, you have to allege and prove that the criminal conduct at issue was committed by a federal officer in furtherance of his duties as a federal officer.  And one of the more important aspects of that is that federal law provides a defense, like immunity or some such.

He tried it with the Manhattan case and failed at the trial court level but is appealing.  

This one is slightly better positioned because almost all of the conduct complained of occurred while he was in office, as opposed to the Manhattan case, where most of it didn't.

But there's also this concept of the "outer perimeter" of presidential duties, and the judge found that "paying porn stars hush money," however you want to characterize it, fell outside of that outer perimeter.

It is a little bit closer question whether "talking about an election" falls within or without that outer perimeter.

 

Thanks! Shan Wu just said on CNN that it's a great move to try by his team but it's unlikely to happen (or something like that). 

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4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I swear to God we're talking right past each other.  I was trying to ask if serving a 2 year term of a 5 year sentence would imply that the person was paroled at two years.  I never, ever said it was probation -- you did.

I give up.

I mentioned it above, but Georgia law provides for a "split sentence" where the person serves prison time for part of the sentence and then, is placed on probation for the remainder.  This all is part of sentencing.  It's different from where a person is sentenced to a straight prison term and is, later, granted parole by the board of paroles and pardons.  

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Just now, dcbc said:

I mentioned it above, but Georgia law provides for a "split sentence where the person serves prison time for part of the sentence and then, is placed on probation.  It's different from where a person is sentenced to a straight prison term and is, later, granted parole.  

OK, thank you. 

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Eh.  Maybe.
I don't doubt they'll try it.  To remove successfully, you have to allege and prove that the criminal conduct at issue was committed by a federal officer in furtherance of his duties as a federal officer.  And one of the more important aspects of that is that federal law provides a defense, like immunity or some such.
He tried it with the Manhattan case and failed at the trial court level but is appealing.  
This one is slightly better positioned because almost all of the conduct complained of occurred while he was in office, as opposed to the Manhattan case, where most of it didn't.
But there's also this concept of the "outer perimeter" of presidential duties, and the judge found that "paying porn stars hush money," however you want to characterize it, fell outside of that outer perimeter.
It is a little bit closer question whether "talking about an election" falls within or without that outer perimeter.
 

Yeah, Trump’s attorney from his second impeachment floated this idea last night, saying that if he thinks he was acting “under the color” of something or other, basically as part of his federal duties as the POTUS, he could try. He also then admitted that none of the other 19 would be able to do that probably. But another attorney on the panel later said — and cited case laws — saying that it could not happen that way. We will see.
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1 minute ago, Red Five said:

So, if that is successful and he's convicted he can pardon himself?

It is an untested legal theory, but if it is transferred, and he is convicted, and he is elected, and if pigs fly out of me arse, he certainly will try.

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4 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

So does Jack Smith get assigned if removed, this being his federal bailiwick and all?   That would take care of the scheduling problems. 

Yeah, that's the weird thing.  It would be tried in federal court with a federal judge, but presumably by the state prosecutors.

It would remain a violation and conviction under Georgia law, but entered by a federal court.

Pardonable by the President under federal law?  Who fucking knows, doesn't seem like it.

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6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, that's the weird thing.  It would be tried in federal court with a federal judge, but presumably by the state prosecutors.

It would remain a violation and conviction under Georgia law, but entered by a federal court.

Pardonable by the President under federal law?  Who fucking knows, doesn't seem like it.

I'm more curious about what federal statute they're going to say covers his actions.  It's going to be some general presidential shit.  Because how Georgia runs its elections is a matter of state law.  And let's not forget that 2021 letter sent long after he was out of office when he no longer was a federal official.  I don't see a clear path to success with this motion.  But they'll try, if only to delay and perpetuate the notion that he's not being treated fairly.

Edited by dcbc
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4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I swear to God we're talking right past each other.  I was trying to ask if serving a 2 year term of a 5 year sentence would imply that the person was paroled at two years.  I never, ever said it was probation -- you did.

I give up.

We aren’t talking past each other. You are just not understanding what I’m saying. If the sentencing judge says, you have to serve two of five years, you would be on probation for those three years.

If the sentencing judge sentenced you to five years - and two years later you requested the Georgia parole board to let you out, and the parole board agreed after a hearing,  then you would not have to serve your complete sentence, as you would be paroled. 

Both circumstances involve not serving the entire five year sentence. Technically, in the first example you would be on probation for three years, and then the second example you would be out on parole after they granted your parole request. 

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also notable that in their defamation suit, Giuliani has admitted "for purposes of this litigation only"** that he made those statements, they are false, and they are defamatory.

**I don't think you can actually do that.  But then again, I'm not sure his admission there is going to be binding in a criminal case.  It probably would be in another civil case and is a prior inconsistent statement/admission of party opponent in any case.

Not sure what you mean by binding, but his admission in the civil case can absolutely be used against him as evidence in a criminal case. 

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