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Posted
4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Here's where that approach falls short.

A crime is not a crime until a defendant is convicted of a crime.  Until then it is an alleged crime.  An alleged crime is anything a prosecutor can coax a grand jury into true billing an indictment, so, a "ham sandwich."  If all it takes to remove immunity is an indictment for a criminal offense, politically motivated prosecutors and administrations could get up to fuckery in no time flat. 

Sure, some alleged crimes are more obviously criminal than others, like murder, rape, sodomy, mopery, etc.  It is also highly likely that those old-fashioned, obvious crimes are not in any way official duties.

But a President or other government official is highly likely to be indicted for a "statutory" crime, one with no obvious common-law analog, like the above.  Something like money laundering, or a sophisticated, "honest services" bribery scheme.  You can't tell on the face of it whether those are actually crimes until the jury weighs in.  Immunity loses a lot of its purpose and effectiveness if you can't tell whether it exists until the defendant is convicted.

Remember, immunity is intended to protect the government from interference, not particular government officials.

So, you have to look at the character of the acts alleged to be criminal (without resort to whether they are in fact crimes somewhere on the books) and determine whether those are official acts committed by an official that also happen to be crimes if convicted (or actionable civil wrongs, which is a lot more likely and for which immunity still exists in many instances).

I have no fucking clue what you're saying, but I've been playing guitar all night and might have drunk some beers.

Thanks for trying.

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Posted
9 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I have no fucking clue what you're saying, but I've been playing guitar all night and might have drunk some beers.

Thanks for trying.

All you need to know

It don't matter if the courts say President Trump has no immunity, because citizen Jesus Christ also knows what it's like to be rejected by the high courts, and his expert testimony will result in a quick appeal, since no jury would want to be known as the Pontius Pilate of their church

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Posted

IMG_2307.jpeg.592f18300ad9726d89d4f34db611eeec.jpeg

“ Your honor, I’d like to offer into evidence Saint Peter’s Judgment Book….also known one day a year as ‘Santa’s Naughty or Nice’ list, and I’m pretty sure it will show  - - uh-oh.  It looks here like he’s been a tad bit rape-y!”

 

Posted
10 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

This cannot be true. I was assured all of the judges were in the tank for Trump, they let them get away with everything, and even though this was a rocket docket quick decision, the delay (because they were drafting an airtight decision) was deemed to be another sign that no one would do anything to stop Trump’s ass-hattery, let alone shorten his efforts to prolong his appeals - and sabotage any efforts to find an appealable issue through brilliant opinion drafting.  

You have disappointed many people here Twice.

 

I'll take this one. 

I have never said the judges were in the tank for DoTARd. I have continually said the system is rigged* to allow people like DOtaRd (wealthy, white, bad faith actors) to avoid consequences by delaying delaying delaying. 

Which is exactly what has been happening. 

 

After this bullshit comes back from the supremes, it'll just be some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. 

I will give all my rep to you and Twice and anybody else who wants it if he is still alive when the Jan 6 trial concludes, regardless of the verdict. 

 

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

 

 

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Posted
13 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Goddamn, Turley is beclowning himself.

The DC Circuit local rules are more generous on timing of rehearing than the Federal Rules, but all of them are caveated "unless the court shortens or lengthens the time."

ETA:  note that rehearing itself isn't all that important, but the "mandate," which is what returns jurisdiction to the trial court.  If nothing else happens, the mandate  goes back to the trial court seven days from the date a rehearing petition is due or decided, if filed.

Under Fed. R. App. P., you have 14 days to seek rehearing/en banc in a criminal case (Turley read the civil rule).  DC gives you 30 in all cases (he didn't read these at all).  But in this one, DC gave him a week to seek relief from SCOTUS.  Which indicates they aren't staying the mandate if he fucks around with rehearing,  I haven't read the order, exactly, but it appears that the court said the mandate will issue on February 12 unless Trump seeks relief from SCOTUS.

Also, a super-curious thing.  This opinion is "per curiam."  That means literally "for the court," meaning the opinion is not that of a single judge, or two of the three, or unanimous, but instead reflective of the judgment of the entire court.

Usually, that's reserved for very short and non-controversial opinions (at least notwithstanding the controversy between the parties).  Usually, if you lose an appeal on a per curiam opinion, that's a pretty humiliating defeat:  your arguments were just barely worthy of consideration.

It's kind of a judicial "duh," meaning any panel of judges from the circuit would have decided it the same way.  Pretty unusual for a 57 page opinion of such importance.  It might reflect that the panel judges sought concurrence of all of the judges, possibly in order to deter a petition for rehearing en banc.

I'm pretty sure per curiam still is technically limited to the three judges that heard and decided the case, just no one judge is taking credit for authorship, and it sends a message that the result wasn't close. They may have consulted the other judges before sending that message. He can still seek rehearing en banc but as you note, it won't stay the mandate, unless rehearing is granted, in which case the mandate is recalled, as specifically stated in the judgment. But the point of the per curiam opinion, shortened timelines, and order that the mandate won't be withheld unless granted, is clearly intended to tell his lawyers that the question wasn't close and that rehearing ain't happening, go straight to SCOTUS to get your next loss, we're done with this shit.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm pretty sure per curiam still is technically limited to the three judges that heard and decided the case, just no one judge is taking credit for authorship, and it sends a message that the result wasn't close. They may have consulted the other judges before sending that message. He can still seek rehearing en banc but as you note, it won't stay the mandate, unless rehearing is granted, in which case the mandate is recalled, as specifically stated in the judgment. But the point of the per curiam opinion, shortened timelines, and order that the mandate won't be withheld unless granted, is clearly intended to tell his lawyers that the question wasn't close and that rehearing ain't happening, go straight to SCOTUS to get your next loss, we're done with this shit.

Yup.  This was truly a work of art decision.  Pitch perfect in fact. 

Posted
39 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

IMG_2307.jpeg.592f18300ad9726d89d4f34db611eeec.jpeg

“ Your honor, I’d like to offer into evidence Saint Peter’s Judgment Book….also known one day a year as ‘Santa’s Naughty or Nice’ list, and I’m pretty sure it will show  - - uh-oh.  It looks here like he’s been a tad bit rape-y!”

 

When you've got Jared Leto on your side...

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Posted
6 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I'll take this one. 

I have never said the judges were in the tank for DoTARd. I have continually said the system is rigged* to allow people like DOtaRd (wealthy, white, bad faith actors) to avoid consequences by delaying delaying delaying. 

Which is exactly what has been happening. 

 

After this bullshit comes back from the supremes, it'll just be some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. 

I will give all my rep to you and Twice and anybody else who wants it if he is still alive when the Jan 6 trial concludes, regardless of the verdict. 

 

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

 

 

So much this.  Every time one appeal is addressed, three more take its place. 

Mr Bean Frustration GIF

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Posted
11 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I'll take this one. 

I have never said the judges were in the tank for DoTARd. I have continually said the system is rigged* to allow people like DOtaRd (wealthy, white, bad faith actors) to avoid consequences by delaying delaying delaying. 

Which is exactly what has been happening. 

 

After this bullshit comes back from the supremes, it'll just be some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. 

I will give all my rep to you and Twice and anybody else who wants it if he is still alive when the Jan 6 trial concludes, regardless of the verdict. 

 

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

So much this.  Every time one appeal is addressed, three more take its place. 

Mr Bean Frustration GIF

My only response to you two is: Which cases have you idiots been following? Because so far, Trump is absolutely getting his ass kicked here.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

That actually was the only part I think I take issue with.  The system is set up to make sure cases are reviewable for errors and abuses of discretion in the lower court and misconstruction of the law or its application at the intermediate appellate level.  It's not rigged.  Instead, it is utilized and/or manipulated by people who can afford to hire lawyers to do so for reasons, i.e., delay, other than for which it originally envisioned.  

8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

per curiam still is technically limited to the three judges that heard and decided the case, just no one judge is taking credit for authorship,

My understanding as well.  At the state-appellate level, it's limited to Anders opinions, agreed dismissals, and abatement orders predominantly.

Edited by dcbc
Posted
3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

 

My only response to you two is: Which cases have you idiots been following? Because so far, Trump is absolutely getting his ass kicked here.

I didn't say he wasn't.  My bitch is that it is taking for fucking ever. If one has money (or unlimited stupid redneck funding) one can delay a trial indefinitely. 

It's fucking infuriating to me.     

Posted
3 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

So much this.  Every time one appeal is addressed, three more take its place. 

Mr Bean Frustration GIF

it’s almost like there are several levels of courts of appeal - and that you can appeal more than one issue in each case.  I get the frustration. Not sure how a plan to take those rights away would work.  

it is certainly true that if you have an unlimited litigation budget, then the fiscal restraints from wasting money on stupid appeals is no longer an issue in a decision whether to file said stupid appeal.   I certainly agree that, from a wealth standpoint, really rich people will file more stupid shit. Because they can.  I’m still gonna need someone to explain to me how to remove those established rights from Rich individuals in a manner that is constitutionally permitted.    Every bite at an appellate apple is another opportunity to theoretically get the proper result.  Removing or limiting those appeal rights could hurt Trump in his individual case right now, but it would have the unintended consequence of eliminating the right to appeal for folks with more valid legal arguments.  Like all complicated, nuanced, intertwined matters, appeal process fixes are difficult

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Posted
25 minutes ago, dcbc said:

That actually was the only part I think I take issue with.  The system is set up to make sure cases are reviewable for errors and abuses of discretion in the lower court and misconstruction of the law or its application at the intermediate appellate level.  It's not rigged.  Instead, it is utilized and/or manipulated by people who can afford to hire lawyers to do so for reasons, i.e., delay, other than for which it originally envisioned.  

My understanding as well.  At the state-appellate level, it's limited to Anders opinions and abatement orders predominantly.

Yeah, less-than-rich defendants employ delay tactics with success as well as rich, just no one pays attention to them. 

The poor are not wholly unable to employ similar tactics to the rich, they're just less likely to, and lack of funds is just one reason, but not necessarily THE reason.

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Posted
16 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

it’s almost like there are several levels of courts of appeal - and that you can appeal more than one issue in each case.  I get the frustration. Not sure how a plan to take those rights away would work.  

it is certainly true that if you have an unlimited litigation budget, then the fiscal restraints from wasting money on stupid appeals is no longer an issue in a decision whether to file said stupid appeal.   I certainly agree that, from a wealth standpoint, really rich people will file more stupid shit. Because they can.  I’m still gonna need someone to explain to me how to remove those established rights from Rich individuals in a manner that is constitutionally permitted.    Every bite at an appellate apple is another opportunity to theoretically get the proper result.  Removing or limiting those appeal rights could hurt Trump in his individual case right now, but it would have the unintended consequence of eliminating the right to appeal for folks with more valid legal arguments.  Like all complicated, nuanced, intertwined matters, appeal process fixes are difficult

Yep. Take these rights away from the rich and guilty, you take them away from the poor and sometimes innocent, as well.

We as a country are doing a bit better at providing the indigent and poor with competent counsel that is more than a nod to the 6th Amendment right to counsel.  We have a long way to go, but it's an issue that people are working on and progress is being made.

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Posted
31 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

it’s almost like there are several levels of courts of appeal - and that you can appeal more than one issue in each case.  I get the frustration. Not sure how a plan to take those rights away would work.  

 

 

It seems to me as if Trump's appeals are being addressed far more quickly than an ordinary appellant's would be.  It's almost as if these appellate courts recognize that time is a factor and have expedited the process.  I know it's not quick enough for our your-meal-in-30 minutes-or-it's-free mindset.  But while the trials get delayed, they are not being delayed as much as they might be.  

Posted
18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The poor are not wholly unable to employ similar tactics to the rich, they're just less likely to, and lack of funds is just one reason, but not necessarily THE reason.

Don't get me started on the pro se mandamus.

Posted (edited)

I'll never forget a nonprofit legal service telling me to not sue the employer who was discriminating against me because the employer would just kill my suit with money and time.

Basically just "I guess you've gotta get a new job"

Edited by safe sex
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Posted
58 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I didn't say he wasn't.  My bitch is that it is taking for fucking ever. If one has money (or unlimited stupid redneck funding) one can delay a trial indefinitely. 

It's fucking infuriating to me.     

Ken Paxton certainly comes to mind here.

All of his tactics have really pissed me off.

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Posted
29 minutes ago, dcbc said:

 

It seems to me as if Trump's appeals are being addressed far more quickly than an ordinary appellant's would be.  It's almost as if these appellate courts recognize that time is a factor and have expedited the process.  I know it's not quick enough for our your-meal-in-30 minutes-or-it's-free mindset.  But while the trials get delayed, they are not being delayed as much as they might be.  

I mean... it's also more likely for an appeal to be handled quickly if there are no grounds for it, or the given grounds are slipshod folderol.

Posted
11 minutes ago, safe sex said:

I'll never forget a nonprofit legal service telling me to not sue the employer who was discriminating against me because the employer would just kill my suit with money and time.

Basically just "I guess you've gotta get a new job"

Bad advice can be had at all price levels.

Every mighty oak started out as a nut that held its ground.

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Posted
1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I'll take this one. 

I have never said the judges were in the tank for DoTARd. I have continually said the system is rigged* to allow people like DOtaRd (wealthy, white, bad faith actors) to avoid consequences by delaying delaying delaying. 

Which is exactly what has been happening. 

 

After this bullshit comes back from the supremes, it'll just be some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. 

I will give all my rep to you and Twice and anybody else who wants it if he is still alive when the Jan 6 trial concludes, regardless of the verdict. 

 

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

 

 

I think the word you're looking for is "weaponized."

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rimbo said:

I mean... it's also more likely for an appeal to be handled quickly if there are no grounds for it, or the given grounds are slipshod folderol.

Once it's submitted, sure.  I'm less familiar with the federal side of the coin, but if they're on an accelerated briefing schedule and pushing on the folks at the trial-court level to get the appellate record in order, along with priority dates given for oral argument, I wouldn't be surprised.  Intermediate state appellate courts in Texas have a 2 year from filing and 1 year from submission deadline for all cases.  Some courts have tighter internal deadlines and most cases get handled more quickly, but the max deadlines are pretty lengthy, just as a basis for comparison.

Edited by dcbc
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Posted
7 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Bad advice can be had at all price levels.

Every mighty oak started out as a nut that held its ground.

in my experience with those type of discrimination cases most people who feel they have suffered discrimination are unaware what the courts say about the elements of proof in a discrimination case.    

I used to tilted windmills all the time when I did 1983 police brutality cases, but as difficult as those cases were, they were a walk in the park as opposed to most employment, discrimination cases.    I totally agree that the body of law built up makes it difficult to win one of those cases.    it might’ve been more accurate for the nonprofit to have told you that the odds of winning given your facts are very slight, and that is not the bread and butter for nonprofits. They help people in cases they can win, not cases that will take up a lot of their scant resources and end up being dismissed 

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Posted
21 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Bad advice can be had at all price levels.

Every mighty oak started out as a nut that held its ground.

The first nut doesn’t have an established mighty oak with which to compete for sunlight and nutrients

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Posted
2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I'll take this one. 

I have never said the judges were in the tank for DoTARd. I have continually said the system is rigged* to allow people like DOtaRd (wealthy, white, bad faith actors) to avoid consequences by delaying delaying delaying. 

Which is exactly what has been happening. 

 

After this bullshit comes back from the supremes, it'll just be some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. Then some other bullshit. 

I will give all my rep to you and Twice and anybody else who wants it if he is still alive when the Jan 6 trial concludes, regardless of the verdict. 

 

*If you don't like the word "rigged" then substitute "set up" or "designed". Use whatever word you want. 

 

 

 

Shit's rigged. 

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Posted

One thing that just occurred to me. The judgment says something like we are looking at this as someone indicted after they leave the executive, as though that was important to saying no immunity.  But we’ve already had that, right?  Spiro Agnew was indicted while he was VP for tax fraud, right?

Posted

Gee, it's pretty tough to see what he's doing here. For the billionth time, imagine being dumb enough to fall for it.

Also, you tell a President to do what you want or you will indict him later, and you're probably going to jail. 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

One thing that just occurred to me. The judgment says something like we are looking at this as someone indicted after they leave the executive, as though that was important to saying no immunity.  But we’ve already had that, right?  Spiro Agnew was indicted while he was VP for tax fraud, right?

Looks like WaPo did an article on this last year. 
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/made-by-history/2023/04/10/there-is-precedent-trumps-indictment-spiro-agnew/

Posted
3 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Now it seems that he's gonna blackmail Biden into getting charges tossed.

 

Screenshot2024-02-07125443.png.a384bb73dd8ec353a48568eeee932fcd.png

 

 

Okaay Ok GIF by MOODMAN

Posted
2 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Guys, Donald Trump is just super concerned about the welfare of future Presidents. That's all this is about. 

 

Or that if Trump is back in office, Obama might get charged with something. You all wouldn't want that now, would you?

 

 

Posted
1 minute ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

Or that if Trump is back in office, Obama might get charged with something. You all wouldn't want that now, would you?

 

 

PWB? 

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Posted
24 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

One thing that just occurred to me. The judgment says something like we are looking at this as someone indicted after they leave the executive, as though that was important to saying no immunity.  But we’ve already had that, right?  Spiro Agnew was indicted while he was VP for tax fraud, right?

 

Also, Nixon accepted his pardon, presumably because he knew there was a very good chance he could be indicated. 

 

Posted
Yeah, less-than-rich defendants employ delay tactics with success as well as rich, just no one pays attention to them. 
The poor are not wholly unable to employ similar tactics to the rich, they're just less likely to, and lack of funds is just one reason, but not necessarily THE reason.


Posted
2 hours ago, safe sex said:

I'll never forget a nonprofit legal service telling me to not sue the employer who was discriminating against me because the employer would just kill my suit with money and time.

Basically just "I guess you've gotta get a new job"

Truth is, a non-profit legal service isn't going to be much help in that kind of situation.  An employment discrimination lawyer would have given you a more solid case evaluation.

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Posted

I know this will shock everyone, but Trump has not been consistent in his belief of Presidential immunity.

Quote

The president’s rambling and ill-tempered interview with Maria Bartiromo on Thursday saw him run through a long list of his usual grievances, but he was particularly rancorous on the subject of supposed Obama-era “crimes” against him for which he wants to see his predecessor indicted, along with Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and many others.

 

“Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes,” declared the president, “the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we’re gonna get little satisfaction unless I win. Because I won’t forget it. But these people should be indicted, this was the greatest political crime in the history of our country. And that includes Obama, and that includes Biden; these are people that spied on my campaign, and we have everything.

“Now they say they have much more, and I say Bill, you got plenty. You don’t need any more.”

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-bill-barr-arrests-fox-news-clinton-obama-biden-obamagate-b885971.html

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Posted
9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Truth is, a non-profit legal service isn't going to be much help in that kind of situation.  An employment discrimination lawyer would have given you a more solid case evaluation.

They were a nonprofit legal service with an office/section focused on employment law. 🤷‍♀️ No cash for a "legit" one at the time (or now lol) 

They said they thought I had a case (I'm a good contemporaneous notetaker), and I could fight if I wanted, but that I would almost certainly lose due to the imbalance of resources, and even if I didn't, the process would probably tear my life up. 

I asked a couple of my lawyer pals in private practice (none specializing in employment discrimination, tbf, but one of them has some experience with it). They said the same. 

I need to find out how to meet George Soros. 🤔

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Posted (edited)

I’m surprised Paxton didn’t have something typed up and ready to submit as soon as the No immunity ruling dropped, indicting Obama for something. 
 

or even do it before, so the judge knew about it while considering the ruling. 

Edited by Pato del Muerto
Posted
52 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’m surprised Paxton didn’t have something typed up and ready to submit as soon as the No immunity ruling dropped, indicting Obama for something. 
 

or even do it before, so the judge knew about it while considering the ruling. 

He's too busy suing Austin for weed.

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Posted
2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Now it seems that he's gonna blackmail Biden into getting charges tossed.

 

Screenshot2024-02-07125443.png.a384bb73dd8ec353a48568eeee932fcd.png

 

 

who is he talking to with these?  does he think presidential immunity is on the ballot as a prop or something?  does he think if i'm nervous about biden and obama then i'm going to vote for him?

don't get me wrong, i think it would be great if he tries to run on the issue of presidential immunity, because that would be hilarious.  not like we're going to see a debate any time soon.

guess he'll go on the morning shows every week and screech about presidential immunity when asked about the border.  this is what happens when you're a defendant and a candidate at the same time.  he's the worst case scenario of thomas jefferson's dream.

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