Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[Brisketexan 104226]

I mean....this isn't the kind of email you want put on a big screen in front of a jury anytime soon....

Quote

Internal communications released during the 737 Max grounding showed one employee describing the jet as “designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys.”

 

[Pig Bellmont 8664]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean....this isn't the kind of email you want put on a big screen in front of a jury anytime soon....

 

Depends on what side of the “vs” you are

[C-Man 26930]

More good press for Boeing: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/business/sec-of-state-antony-blinken-forced-to-change-planes-after-boeing-breaks-down/index.html

Quote

Secretary of State Antony Blinken was forced to change planes to return to Washington from Davos after his plane suffered what the traveling press was told was a critical failure related to an oxygen leak.

Blinken and the traveling party boarded the modified Boeing 737 jet in Zurich on Wednesday after a day and a half of meetings at the global summit in Davos.

The plane suffered the issue after boarding and the party was forced to deplane, according to traveling press.

A new, smaller aircraft was being sent for Blinken, and many in the traveling party will now be returning to Washington commercially, according to the traveling press. State Department spokesperson Matt Miller on Wednesday said the plane suffered a mechanical issue. He said Blinken was still expected to be back in Washington Wednesday evening, and referred further questions to the US Air Force.

This is just the latest blow to Boeing’s once stellar, now badly tarnished reputation. On Jan. 5 an Alaska Airlines jet had a door plug blow out shortly after takeoff when the plane was at 16,000 feet, leaving a gaping hole in the side of the jet.

Fortunately no one was sitting in the seat next to the hole, and no was seriously injured. But the incident led to the temporary grounding of all 737 Max 9 jets as airlines were ordered to inspect them for possible faulty assembly and loose or missing bolts. While a cause of that accident is still under investigation, Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun has acknowledge a “mistake” by Boeing led to the incident.

That Alaska Air plane is a newer version of the 737 than the one that Blinken had been set to ride on, which is an older model modified for use by the military. But the newer version of the 737, the 737 Max, has had a series of serious problems long before the Alaska Air incident this month.

Two crashes of the 737 Max, in 2018 in Indonesia and early 2019 in Ethopia, killed all 346 people on board the flights, and led to a 20-month grounding of the jet while Boeing worked to come up with a fix to the design flaw that caused the crashes.

But it has had other quality issues since returning to service beyond the Alaska Air incident. Just this past December Boeing asked airlines to inspect all of their 737 Max jets for a potential loose bolt in the rudder system, which is crucial to control of the plane in the air, after an airline discovered a potential problem with a key part on two aircraft.

In recent years the aircraft maker also has had quality issues that led to a halt in deliveries of the 787 Dreamliner while its 777 jet was also temporarily grounded jets suffered engine failure, sending debris crashing down over Denver.

 

[AUS-97HORN 11644]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:02 PM, Brisketexan said:

Internal communications released during the 737 Max grounding showed one employee describing the jet as “designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys.”

fucker just described Surly to a fucking T

he just forgot to add:  led by lawyers... and that would have been the confirmed chefs kiss

[Brisketexan 104226]

12 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

fucker just described Surly to a fucking T

he just forgot to add:  led by lawyers... and that would have been the confirmed chefs kiss

So...you admit that we're Surly's LEADERS?  Yeah, we're good with that.  We lawyers will take credit.  But not responsibility.  Responsibility is for commies.

[Gatorubet 30023]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

So...you admit that we're Surly's LEADERS?  Yeah, we're good with that.  We lawyers will take credit.  But not responsibility.  Responsibility is for commies.

And cash. We take cash too….

[Brisketexan 104226]

3 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

And cash. We take cash too….

[ClubWhatever 12082]

Any chunks fall off a 737max today?

[ROFL BOX 6644]

[gsoda3 3214]

If you have no fiduciary duty, you have no insider trading.

Your conclusion that it's not insider trading is correct but your reasoning is incomplete. The corporate outsider standard for insider trading consists of two parts. You referenced one of them. The other is whether the source of information constitutes a breach of fiduciary duty. Both have to be satisfied. Just FYI.

[Captainant 27250]

Another good technical update on recent NTSB findings:

The door cleanly disengaged from the plane and the stops and pads appear to have cleanly disengaged. Inspections have also been finding a BUNCH of loose bolts all over the plug door assembly in the MAX9 fleet, including even on the load bearing rollers that the door latches with. 

Boeing is bending over and grabbing its ankles in preparation for all the extra inspections coming their way, and the FAA may appoint an independent 3rd party "technical nonprofit" org to oversee Boeing's QA overhaul. 

Also, they cover the flight deck door opening unexpectedly. The maintenance manual says it's got blow out panels for decompression equalization, and even specifically states that it "is able to withstand the pressure difference" of a rapid depressurization. They're gonna update the manuals 🤦

[ClubWhatever 12082]

28 minutes ago, Captainant said:

the FAA may appoint an independent 3rd party "technical nonprofit" org to oversee Boeing's QA overhaul. 

Isn't that what the FAA is supposed to be?  An impartial overseer?

[Captainant 27250]

31 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

Isn't that what the FAA is supposed to be?  An impartial overseer?

[laughs in regulatory capture]

[Gatorubet 30023]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:02 PM, Brisketexan said:

I mean....this isn't the kind of email you want put on a big screen in front of a jury anytime soon....

 

But he meant it in the nice way….

[ROFL BOX 6644]

Isn't that what the FAA is supposed to be?  An impartial overseer?

Suuure... as if outsourcing to private industry with no oversight is a bad thing.

C'mon... next thing you know, you're gonna say we need private armies because the ACTUAL army cannot get things done.

[956 Worldwide 34241]

Say it again, Boeing becoming an MBA company and not an airplane company is how we got here: 

 https://americancompass.org/airbuss-industrial-flight-plan/ 
 

Quote

From 2012 to 2022, Airbus spent more than Boeing on R&D every year except 2016 and 2017,30 two years in which expense reclassification for the 787 and 77X aircraft (not new R&D) account for Boeing’s higher spending. Institutional investors broadly opposed new airplane programs on the theory that rising R&D costs would cut into stock buybacks and dividend options.31 In 2021, Boeing closed its Seattle manufacturing R&D center.32 As of November 2022, the company planned to wait out the 2020s and defer new plane development until the 2030s.33

 

“An airplane company making new airplanes is bad for business,” is such a crystalline distillation of the MBA mindset. It’s atrocious to think about how much human capital is tied up in PowerPoint formatting and delivery at American companies. 

[Brisketexan 104226]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“An airplane company making new airplanes is bad for business,” is such a crystalline distillation of the MBA mindset. It’s atrocious to think about how much human capital is tied up in PowerPoint formatting and delivery at American companies. 

Yep.  And it also ties back to the goal of delivering quarterly results, period.  Short term gain is God, long-term investment and planning is the Devil.  Follow that path, and you end up with formerly great enterprises like Boeing becoming shitshows.  Shit, it's why Michael Dell took Dell private (as just one example) - he couldn't make the long-term moves for the company that were needed....which would necessarily result in short-term "bad financial performance"....with everyone breathing down his neck yelling about why they didn't meet their profit projections to the penny in Q3 or somesuch.  Shortsightedness is our new American religion, and we're seeing the results throughout society, but particularly the business sector.  The results aren't pretty.

[InkaUtexas 25289]

Reports a 747 had an engine blow out over Miami. Was a cargo version, but bad news just keeps coming.

[956 Worldwide 34241]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Reports a 747 had an engine blow out over Miami. Was a cargo version, but bad news just keeps coming.

Bad news, although on this one— airframe manufacturers don’t make engines.  But people will just see Boeing 747.

[InkaUtexas 25289]

Yep, and the airline does the pre-flight inspection.

[DalTxHornFan 3074]

747-8s use GE engines exclusively.  The better news is that the same plane made it to its destination in Puerto Rico later that night. 

That seems to indicate no significant damage to the engine.  Maybe ingested a big bird or a flock of them after takeoff?

[Brisketexan 104226]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yep, and the airline does the pre-flight inspection.

You mean, the airline that surely has some green MBA bean-counter who looked at their annual maintenance costs and time spent on inspections, and arbitrarily decided that the airline could save $2.3 million annually if it simply eliminated steps 32, 41, and 53 of all pre-flight inspections?  You mean THAT airline?

[956 Worldwide 34241]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  And it also ties back to the goal of delivering quarterly results, period.  Short term gain is God, long-term investment and planning is the Devil.  Follow that path, and you end up with formerly great enterprises like Boeing becoming shitshows.  Shit, it's why Michael Dell took Dell private (as just one example) - he couldn't make the long-term moves for the company that were needed....which would necessarily result in short-term "bad financial performance"....with everyone breathing down his neck yelling about why they didn't meet their profit projections to the penny in Q3 or somesuch.  Shortsightedness is our new American religion, and we're seeing the results throughout society, but particularly the business sector.  The results aren't pretty.

The shift from “this company exists to make money by (selling airplanes, computers, etc)” to “this company exists to make money” is seemingly subtle but toxic and now basically everything is about being a credit card issuer. 

[RPM 26167]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:12 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

The shift from “this company exists to make money by (selling airplanes, computers, etc)” to “this company exists to make money” is seemingly subtle but toxic and now basically everything is about being a credit card issuer. 

Boeing becomes GM. If we build shit they will buy it anyway.

[Captainant 27250]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Boeing becomes GM. If we build shit they will buy it anyway.

Boeings CEO is an acolyte of Jack Welch, and is really following in his footsteps with destroying a formerly great American company

[956 Worldwide 34241]

9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Boeings CEO is an acolyte of Jack Welch, and is really following in his footsteps with destroying a formerly great American company

And he is there because when Boeing bought (failing) McDonnell Douglas, cutthroat McDonnell Douglas executives were given outsized management responsibilities and they proceeded to go down the Jack Welch path.  It’s almost like McDonnell Douglas executives bought Boeing with Boeing’s money.  Then they moved HQ to Chicago to get away from engineers. 

[Chopper 17055]

Same door plug

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/faa-recommends-door-plug-inspections-boeing-model-midair-alaska-blowou-rcna134986

 

[Bateshorn 9853]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:53 AM, DalTxHornFan said:

747-8s use GE engines exclusively.  The better news is that the same plane made it to its destination in Puerto Rico later that night. 

That seems to indicate no significant damage to the engine.  Maybe ingested a big bird or a flock of them after takeoff?

747-8 are about the most robust modern airplane you can fly, outside of maybe a C-130. There are the flying equivalent of an overbuilt post and beam house. 

Edited January 22 by Bateshorn

[tokamak 6346]

"Institutional investors are broadly against (an airplane manufacturer) developing new airplanes" is such an absurd statement that I just can't get over it.

The only remedy is a salty, ball-breaking regulator. Every time I hear CEOs or politicians whine about "job-killing regulations" I'm going to mentally replace the statement with "door-plug-fastening regulations".

[Deej 76396]

They should be able to remotely blow out panels on demand to deal with people who disrupt flights. 

"Ma'am, could you just unfasten your seatbelt for me? As soon as you do, you can make as big of a scene as you'd like."

[shakahorn 1623]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:42 AM, DaysOff said:

That 900er has the same plug.

 

3 hours ago, Chopper said:

Same door plug

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/faa-recommends-door-plug-inspections-boeing-model-midair-alaska-blowou-rcna134986

 

The FAA reads Surly!

[Captainant 27250]

An interesting theory I've seen kicked around a bit is that since Spirit delivers the 737 fuselage to Boeing with the plug door in place, but not fully affixed/fastened so that Boeing can have easier access for final assembly, but that planes were worked on without removing the door, so they never got re-inspected and properly torqued before passed onto customers. 

A couple of loose or even missing bolts, and a simple static pressure test may not turn anything up or find failures. But put some dynamic stresses on that airframe and send it through a storm front to give it a good shake, and I could see the sort of "clean" failure that the door plug seems to have had

[Nivek 16771]

 

[FartingMonk 3606]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

An interesting theory I've seen kicked around a bit is that since Spirit delivers the 737 fuselage to Boeing with the plug door in place, but not fully affixed/fastened so that Boeing can have easier access for final assembly, but that planes were worked on without removing the door, so they never got re-inspected and properly torqued before passed onto customers. 

A couple of loose or even missing bolts, and a simple static pressure test may not turn anything up or find failures. But put some dynamic stresses on that airframe and send it through a storm front to give it a good shake, and I could see the sort of "clean" failure that the door plug seems to have had

Didn't that plane have over 150 successful flights before the plug blew off?  Was it not already in Alaska's ownership when the pressure warning lights came on?  I mean a good surly lawyer might argue that it was a helluva over designed airframe and Alaska should have properly investigated the warning lights.

[Captainant 27250]

12 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

Didn't that plane have over 150 successful flights before the plug blew off?  Was it not already in Alaska's ownership when the pressure warning lights came on?  I mean a good surly lawyer might argue that it was a helluva over designed airframe and Alaska should have properly investigated the warning lights.

Oh there's absolutely culpability on Alaskan Airlines - it seems that their maintenance procedure for the pressurization errors was to clear the error and keep on flying. They've been known to have poor maintenance practices too.

But the airframe in question was delivered to them as an airworthy certified plane in November 2023. A plane that new should NEVER have those sort of problems that early on. A lazy, or more likely, undermanned maintenance and inspection team could definitely skip this every now and then, because "it's not like they'd deliver us a broken plane right?" Alaska is lucky as hell that nobody was seriously injured, because their ass was in the wind on this one. 

Boeing however is fuggity fucked. Ain't no """pilot error""" causing bolts to be missing and under torqued coming off the Boeing lines to customers. The fact that multiple airlines have found the same errors on their airframes is STRONG evidence of deep and systemic issues in Boeing

Edited January 22 by Captainant

[FartingMonk 3606]

9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Oh there's absolutely culpability on Alaskan Airlines - it seems that their maintenance procedure for the pressurization errors was to clear the error and keep on flying. They've been known to have poor maintenance practices too.

But the airframe in question was delivered to them as an airworthy certified plane in November 2023. A plane that new should NEVER have those sort of problems that early on. A lazy, or more likely, undermanned maintenance and inspection team could definitely skip this every now and then, because "it's not like they'd deliver us a broken plane right?" Alaska is lucky as hell that nobody was seriously injured, because their ass was in the wind on this one. 

Boeing however is fuggity fucked. Ain't no """pilot error""" causing bolts to be missing and under torqued coming off the Boeing lines to customers. The fact that multiple airlines have found the same errors on their airframes is STRONG evidence of deep and systemic issues in Boeing

Yeah.  Boeing already knows their QA program is messed up.  But that part of the delivery is "welcome to the world of acceptance testing and warranty period"

 

Customer is behind.  Company really wants the product.  There is a hey take it as is.  If anything breaks in a year we fix it.  It's so standard across all industries right now it's pretty laughable 

[Captainant 27250]

11 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

Yeah.  Boeing already knows their QA program is messed up.  But that part of the delivery is "welcome to the world of acceptance testing and warranty period"

 

Customer is behind.  Company really wants the product.  There is a hey take it as is.  If anything breaks in a year we fix it.  It's so standard across all industries right now it's pretty laughable 

 

 

[royiv 9124]

Not a good sign for Boeing when the CEO of your biggest customer starts calling you out in public.

https://apnews.com/article/united-airlines-ceo-boeing-manufacturing-problems-4090ea6176ef59e382dd18e9522596bc

[Braff Zacklin 13361]

Also not a good sign when United is your biggest customer.

[Incredulity 11440]

18 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Customer is behind.  Company really wants the product.  There is a hey take it as is.  If anything breaks in a year we fix it.  It's so standard across all industries right now it's pretty laughable 

100 percent.  And it is all so simply 1 to 1 traceable to shutting the world down for months on end.  NOT just this issue.  Half-ass electrical components are a huge issue in my daily work currently.  Everyone has waited for  up to 2 years on shit.  What is being delivered isn't right, but by and large the decisions coming down the line are roll with it.

 

   Frankly, I am surprised there hasn't been worse catastrophic issues, maybe we are just at the beginning of finding the fucking problems... who knows.

 

[RPM 26167]

Maybe Lockheed needs to get back into commercial aviation. There really should be more of a choice than literally A or B.

[royiv 9124]

18 minutes ago, RPM said:

Maybe Lockheed needs to get back into commercial aviation. There really should be more of a choice than literally A or B.

In addition to A and B there's now a C to keep an eye on. I don't think we're going to see US airlines buying the Comac C919 anytime soon, but it's selling well in China and that's historically been a big Boeing marker. If it starts catching on in the rest of Asia, that could put a big dent in Boeing's narrowbody business.

[Chopper 17055]

21 hours ago, Captainant said:

Oh there's absolutely culpability on Alaskan Airlines - it seems that their maintenance procedure for the pressurization errors was to clear the error and keep on flying. They've been known to have poor maintenance practices too.

But the airframe in question was delivered to them as an airworthy certified plane in November 2023. A plane that new should NEVER have those sort of problems that early on. A lazy, or more likely, undermanned maintenance and inspection team could definitely skip this every now and then, because "it's not like they'd deliver us a broken plane right?" Alaska is lucky as hell that nobody was seriously injured, because their ass was in the wind on this one.

Alaska was lucky because United Boeing couldn't be bothered to properly build an aircraft is some very solid logic.

Edited January 23 by Chopper

[Chopper 17055]

Maybe it's time to wonder about Delta's maintenance practices. Delta Boeing 757 had been cleared to taxi as it awaited takeoff clearance. However, while taxiing onto the runway, one of the wheels of the nose gear separated from the aircraft, and rolled into a nearby embankment. Another pilot awaiting takeoff notified the pilot of the 757 that he had just watched a tire from the nose gear roll down the runway.

 

[tokamak 6346]

56 minutes ago, RPM said:

Maybe Lockheed needs to get back into commercial aviation. There really should be more of a choice than literally A or B.

 

35 minutes ago, royiv said:

In addition to A and B there's now a C to keep an eye on. I don't think we're going to see US airlines buying the Comac C919 anytime soon, but it's selling well in China and that's historically been a big Boeing marker. If it starts catching on in the rest of Asia, that could put a big dent in Boeing's narrowbody business.

Seems insanely hard without a big push from a deep-pocketed government. Bombardier tried, actually built a pretty nice airplane, and it bankrupted them anyway.

[royiv 9124]

8 minutes ago, tokamak said:

 

Seems insanely hard without a big push from a deep-pocketed government. Bombardier tried, actually built a pretty nice airplane, and it bankrupted them anyway.

For sure and China has some really deep pockets with the added benefit of stealing a lot of IP.

[Captainant 27250]

2 hours ago, Chopper said:

Alaska was lucky because United couldn't be bothered to properly build an aircraft is some very solid logic.

eh? I said that Alaska is lucky that nobody died because they exposed themselves to the risk that Boeing had let through their swiss cheese Q/A process. If someone had died, AS's liability would be through the roof, but they got reeeeaaallllly lucky to have no deaths in an incident like this.

United however had nothing to do with that series of fuckups. I only mentioned UA because since they also found the same sort of problems in the same model airframes, it makes it more likely that the root cause for both is manufacturing defects - not a series of distributed maintenance errors.

Edited January 23 by Captainant

[Chopper 17055]

48 minutes ago, Captainant said:

eh? I said that Alaska is lucky that nobody died because they exposed themselves to the risk that Boeing had let through their swiss cheese Q/A process. If someone had died, AA's liability would be through the roof, but they got reeeeaaallllly lucky to have no deaths in an incident like this.

United however had nothing to do with that series of fuckups. I only mentioned UA because since they also found the same sort of problems in the same model airframes, it makes it more likely that the root cause for both is manufacturing defects - not a series of distributed maintenance errors.

My bad, I meant to type Boeing but I had United on the mind as I had just read the article @royivlinked. You probably meant AS, btw.

[Captainant 27250]

34 minutes ago, Chopper said:

My bad, I meant to type Boeing but I had United on the mind as I had just read the article @royivlinked. You probably meant AS, btw.

yeah my bad, I wasn't thinking airline code and was just shorthand abbreviating the plaintext. I'll correct my post, ty

[Chopper 17055]

Jan. 23, 2024, 12:44 PM PST / Source: NBC News
By Tom Costello and Rob Wile

The CEO of Alaska Airlines said new, in-house inspections of the carrier's Boeing 737 Max 9 planes in the wake of a near-disaster earlier this month revealed that “many” of the aircraft were found to have loose bolts.

In an exclusive interview with NBC News senior correspondent Tom Costello, Alaska Airlines CEO Ben Minicucci discussed the findings of his company's inspections so far since the Jan. 5 incident, in which a panel on one of its Max 9 jets blew out midair on a flight carrying 177 people.
 

Quote

 

“I’m more than frustrated and disappointed,” he said. “I am angry. This happened to Alaska Airlines. It happened to our guests and happened to our people. And — my demand on Boeing is what are they going to do to improve their quality programs in-house.”

Following the incident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered all Boeing Max 9 planes grounded and launched a safety investigation. The agency also announced an audit of Boeing's Max 9 production line and suppliers "to evaluate Boeing’s compliance with its approved quality procedures." It is also subjecting Boeing, as well as its third-party suppliers, to additional increased monitoring.

The incident also prompted lawmakers to question whether Boeing's quality control systems are adequate.

“Given the previous tragic crashes of Boeing 737 Max aircraft, we are deeply concerned that the loose bolts represent a systemic issue with Boeing’s capabilities to manufacture safe airplanes,” Sens. Ed Markey, J.D. Vance and Peter Welch wrote to Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun earlier this month.

There is still no timetable for returning the Boeing-made planes to service because the FAA has not yet issued specific maintenance orders that are required for them to do so.

As a result, Alaska Airlines, whose fleet had the highest percentage of Max 9 planes among any major carrier, has spent weeks canceling and rearranging its schedule, leaving thousands of passengers scrambling.

Minicucci said the onus is now on Boeing to show how it will improve its quality control and prevent such incidents from unfolding in the future. But out of an abundance of caution, he said, Alaska Airlines is incorporating its own additional oversight on the production line at Boeing.

"We’re sending our audit people to audit their quality control systems and processes to make sure that every aircraft that comes off that production line, that comes to Alaska has the highest levels of excellence and quality," he said.

United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby said in a separate interview with CNBC on Wednesday that it is now contemplating a future for its fleet without the Boeing 737 Max 10, a newer version of the popular jet.

United has also said that it found additional loose bolts on its Max 9 planes.

Minicucci told NBC's Costello that while Alaska Airlines "was" planning to buy Max 10s, the company will now evaluate "what the best long-term strategic plan is for Alaska('s) fleet mix" once the craft is certified.

"I think everything’s open at this point ... for us," he said, confirming that Hawaiian Airlines, which Alaska Airlines is in the process of buying, uses planes produced by Boeing's rival, Airbus. "I think we’re going to do what’s best for Alaska long term, in terms of fleet mix for us. It gives us optionality."

In a statement to NBC News, Boeing said: “We have let down our airline customers and are deeply sorry for the significant disruption to them, their employees and their passengers. We are taking action on a comprehensive plan to bring these airplanes safely back to service and to improve our quality and delivery performance. We will follow the lead of the FAA and support our customers every step of the way.”

Boeing has lost 19% of its market capitalization over the past month.

Minicucci, who became president of Alaska Airlines in 2016 and began his career as an engineer, said he was "incredulous" that something like the incident earlier this month could even happen.

"I knew that this was an issue out of the (Boeing) factory," he said. "There was no question in my mind."

"And it’s clear to me that we received an airplane from Boeing with a faulty door. Now the NTSB investigation is going to figure out why that was a faulty door, whether it was bad installation, missing hardware, a manufacturing issue, but there’s no doubt that Alaska received an airplane off the production line with a faulty door," Minicucci said, referring to the National Transportation Safety Board's probe.