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SmokeyBear1861

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3 hours ago, statsman said:

US army troops committed an atrocity in Iraq, at Mahmudiyah, that shames me, as an American who bursts with pride in his country, usually. The men who did it were reported, and are in a hole in Kansas that they will never get out of. Justice? There is no justice for what they did, but this is the closest approximation. 
 
If Israel commits such an atrocity, turn them into Israel. Report it. 
 
Now, are you calling “collateral damage” (the euphemism for innocent civilians being killed by the war around them) an atrocity? John Kirby addressed that very question the other day, and I have no quibble with his answer. It’s Hamas’ fault. 

A Manichean view of the world is always helpful in times of moral uncertainty.

Edited by David Dennison
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10 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

You mean like it was before one nation promised another nation the land of a third nation?
 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours, 
Arthur James Balfour

So wait, do this mean I have to dig out my old high school class ring and burn it because of what Balfour was doing in the 1910s?

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

2. Is there anything particularly “Israeli” in Brooklyn/Crown Heights?

Not at all.  In fact, there's no sleep till Brooklyn.

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17 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

From Dagestan to London to Paris to NYC, every has Palestinian flags. Yet my HEB does not have any.... What the hell? 

Thinking there could be a business opportunity here. 

I know you're kidding, but . . . 

https://hebfdn.org/

IIRC, old Howard Butt was pretty damn religious.  Anything that would take Jerusalem out of Jewish/Israeli hands isn't welcomed.

 

 

 

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Frankly, it does not help the Palestinian cause, in the west, that it is allied with Russia and Iran. War in Gaza helps Russia, as Israel competes with Ukraine for munitions acquisition. That is probably a lot of the reason Russia is carrying water for Hamas. 

Edited by statsman
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42 minutes ago, statsman said:

Frankly, it does not help the Palestinian cause, in the west, that it is allied with Russia and Iran. War in Gaza helps Russia, as Israel competes with Ukraine for munitions acquisition. That is probably a lot of the reason Russia is carrying water for Hamas. 

To who else should they turn for aid? 

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To who else should they turn for aid? 

Depends on the goals. If they want to prolong the war, Iran is a great partner. Russia is a good partner.

If they want peace, try to find a Nato member or western ally.

We know what they will do and how it will play out.
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33 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

To who else should they turn for aid? 

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

Edited by statsman
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44 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

You're not understanding his point. They turn to these people out of desperation, because they appear to them to be the only ones willing to offer any resources. It's a rational decision even if it's a bad one.

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14 hours ago, statsman said:

I’m not joking. It is my belief that the Israelis are decent people that believe in rights and the rule of law. 

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

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22 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

Ok, you’re right. It is my belief that the concept of Rule of Law is codified in the governing documents of Israeli civil society. 

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28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Kind of a sweeping generalization there, don’t you think? What about Netanyahu and his coalition of right-wing religious nationalists who are trying to overthrow the judiciary?

I took it to mean the Israeli people outside of their whack job government.  Regular civilians.

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2 hours ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

Putin's sole objective is chaos and distraction particularly when it comes to the US, "active measures" and all. This conflict is politically polarizing in the US and money sent to Israel or for civilian aid is money not going to Ukraine. Go to the Speaker of the House thread, it's already working. They are in chaos about whether to support one or both causes with many trying to stop all aid. That is literally his only interest. I doubt Putin personally cares even a little bit about Jewish religion or ethnicity, the divisive nature of the topic is useful to his totalitarian regime, that's all that matters.

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On 10/30/2023 at 11:25 AM, Biff Tannen said:

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

About this:

 

So it could've been actual Cornell students, or it couldn't been Russian propagandists, or it could've been some good old fashioned American nazis trying to stir shit up. We won't know unless/until law enforcement actually tracks down who posted the threats.

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Well that was interesting.

Wolf Blitzer was just interviewing an IDF spokesperson on CNN, asking if the refugee camp in Gaza that was just obliterated was done by the IDF on purpose, knowing that there were civilians there.

The IDF spokesman said, "yep, we did it on purpose."  It was clear as day, no distortion or delay or anything.

Wolf then feigns that he can't hear the guy for a minute and asks another question.  Again, IDF guy answers clearly.

CNN then cuts to two other anchors and said they lost the feeds for Wolf Blitzer and the interview and cut to commercial.

 

Seems to me like they didn't like the IDF answer.

Edited by Biff Tannen
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3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

So it could've been actual Cornell students, or it couldn't been Russian propagandists, or it could've been some good old fashioned American nazis trying to stir shit up. We won't know unless/until law enforcement actually tracks down who posted the threats.

it's been a hallmark of russian active measures to use stochastic tactics like this to gin up a genuine response to a fake outrage bait

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19 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well that was interesting.

Wolf Blitzer was just interviewing an IDF spokesperson on CNN, asking if the refugee camp in Gaza that was just obliterated was done by the IDF on purpose, knowing that there were civilians there.

The IDF spokesman said, "yep, we did it on purpose."  It was clear as day, no distortion or delay or anything.

Wolf then feigns that he can't hear the guy for a minute and asks another question.  Again, IDF guy answers clearly.

CNN then cuts to two other anchors and said they lost the feeds for Wolf Blitzer and the interview and cut to commercial.

 

Seems to me like they didn't like the IDF answer.

yep, saw that. Then brought on a US Military retired Officer to say they were looking for a high value target. 

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22 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

About this:

 

So it could've been actual Cornell students, or it couldn't been Russian propagandists, or it could've been some good old fashioned American nazis trying to stir shit up. We won't know unless/until law enforcement actually tracks down who posted the threats.

and yet....?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/us/cornell-antisemetic-threats-person-of-interest/index.html

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3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Palestine* (not Hamas) gets most of its aid from the Western and democratic world with some petrodollars thrown in. 

Hamas is aligned with Iran and Russia because they are a violent, authoritarian movement that fundamentally share Iran and Russia’s views of the world and how it should work.  Only nations like Russia and Iran will help them, they are awful and so they need awful regimes to help them launch terror attacks.

This isn’t near as complicated or as morally grey as people would have you believe, and the resources that the Palestinian PEOPLE  actually get and that are helpful are coming from sources that aren’t acknowledged because it upsets the big narrative. 
image.thumb.jpeg.56ed9a37c85440f57b369054b9b4f77b.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.d09c3d8b7548dbde816ae66ef16193e8.jpeg
 

image.thumb.jpeg.ad42be3473452cdcfccf8c705c49f184.jpeg

this is how you cloak room, people.

thank you for the informative answer. i learned a lot from this post.

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4 hours ago, statsman said:

Hayden, are Iran and Russia resources for the Palestinians or are the Palestinians more of a resource for Iran and Russia?

Iran is helping Hamas kill Jews, but I don’t believe it is actually advancing the Palestinian cause. 

 

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not understanding his point. They turn to these people out of desperation, because they appear to them to be the only ones willing to offer any resources. It's a rational decision even if it's a bad one.

and yes, this was my ultimate point.

this is something i was talking to my teenage sons about. palestinians are in an ultimate no win situation. they are expected to act perfectly while they endure and witness abuse after abuse around them. obviously, the answer isn't violence, but let's be real. if we don't feel comfortable with "apartheid" as a desciption, then we can compare it somewhat to jim crow america, i guess. black people could succeed if they played perfectly by the white man's rules. that's the situation palestinians are in. hamas is a terrorist organization, but put yourself in their shoes. there is actually no place else for a desperate palestinian to go. 

i dunno. when you treat people like animals, sometimes they fulfill your wishes and act like them. 

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3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

and yes, this was my ultimate point.

this is something i was talking to my teenage sons about. palestinians are in an ultimate no win situation. they are expected to act perfectly while they endure and witness abuse after abuse around them. obviously, the answer isn't violence, but let's be real. if we don't feel comfortable with "apartheid" as a desciption, then we can compare it somewhat to jim crow america, i guess. black people could succeed if they played perfectly by the white man's rules. that's the situation palestinians are in. hamas is a terrorist organization, but put yourself in their shoes. there is actually no place else for a desperate palestinian to go. 

i dunno. when you treat people like animals, sometimes they fulfill your wishes and act like them. 

Actually, it’s worse than that. Blessed may be the peacemakers, but ask PM Rabin about how kind that part of the world is to them. 
 
The US south may have deserved a Toussaint Louverture, but it got a Frederick Douglas (America may really be blessed).  We got a MLK, Jr., instead of a Patrice Lumumba. 
 
There may be (probably are) Palestinians ready and able to make appeals to Israeli, Palestinians, and the world’s better natures. I think Hamas and IJ will put a bullet in their heads before they get very far. 

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13 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

and yes, this was my ultimate point.

this is something i was talking to my teenage sons about. palestinians are in an ultimate no win situation. they are expected to act perfectly while they endure and witness abuse after abuse around them. obviously, the answer isn't violence, but let's be real. if we don't feel comfortable with "apartheid" as a desciption, then we can compare it somewhat to jim crow america, i guess. black people could succeed if they played perfectly by the white man's rules. that's the situation palestinians are in. hamas is a terrorist organization, but put yourself in their shoes. there is actually no place else for a desperate palestinian to go. 

i dunno. when you treat people like animals, sometimes they fulfill your wishes and act like them. 

"Hurt people hurt people" applies at scale, basically.

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2 minutes ago, statsman said:

Actually, it’s worse than that. Blessed may be the peacemakers, but ask PM Rabin about how kind that part of the world is to them. 
 
The US south may have deserved a Toussaint Louverture, but it got a Frederick Douglas (America may really be blessed).  We got a MLK, Jr., instead of a Patrice Lumumba. 
 
There may be (probably are) Palestinians ready and able to make appeals to Israeli, Palestinians, and the world’s better natures. I think Hamas and IJ will put a bullet in their heads before they get very far. 

if they don't, israel would.

because this is all proceeding according to israel's plan. you put the screws to people, they eventually buckle. some will get angry and rise up and usually get brutally repressed. 

this is not a new pattern.

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7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

if they don't, israel would.

because this is all proceeding according to israel's plan. you put the screws to people, they eventually buckle. some will get angry and rise up and usually get brutally repressed. 

this is not a new pattern.

It's Netanyahu's/Likud's plan, not Israel's. He'll also be trying to use this as an opportunity to crack down on domestic opposition.  

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15 minutes ago, statsman said:

(Added because it’s too late to edit earlier post):

For the record, I believe Frederick Douglas’ anger was every bit as fierce as Louverture’s. He applied it very differently. 

You know, Frederick Douglas is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more.

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9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You know, Frederick Douglas is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more.

A lot of great 19th century statesmen wrote and said things that are very cringey today. Douglas’ holds up really, really well. 
 
I’m planning to read one of his 4th of July speeches to my family next Independence Day. 

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4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Palestine* (not Hamas) gets most of its aid from the Western and democratic world with some petrodollars thrown in. 

Hamas is aligned with Iran and Russia because they are a violent, authoritarian movement that fundamentally share Iran and Russia’s views of the world and how it should work.  Only nations like Russia and Iran will help them, they are awful and so they need awful regimes to help them launch terror attacks.

This isn’t near as complicated or as morally grey as people would have you believe, and the resources that the Palestinian PEOPLE  actually get and that are helpful are coming from sources that aren’t acknowledged because it upsets the big narrative. 
image.thumb.jpeg.56ed9a37c85440f57b369054b9b4f77b.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.d09c3d8b7548dbde816ae66ef16193e8.jpeg
 

image.thumb.jpeg.ad42be3473452cdcfccf8c705c49f184.jpeg

Not sure what narrative you're referring to but it's nice to see graphics showing that it's very easy for nation states to tell the difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas when it comes to tracking their dollars. A bit unclear how it becomes so much more difficult when it comes to one particular nation state tracking their fired munitions. 

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48 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's Netanyahu's/Likud's plan, not Israel's. He'll also be trying to use this as an opportunity to crack down on domestic opposition.  

Maybe Likud will continue with this “plan” but it will be without Bibi, he’ll be gone the next election.

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