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SmokeyBear1861

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11 hours ago, Welshy said:

Fuck them. 

And fuck Israel. And fuck Palestine.

Take what you can. It's as it always was, and what it will ever be. If you can't hold it, fuck you. You, Israel, and your 400B in aid from the US and you can't protect your borders? Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you for not protecting yoreself. Fuck jewish legislators for bleeding the US for Israeli Kibbutz Nirvana. Fuck us all. But Mostly you. 

 

$400, 000, 000 Billion dollars in aid to Israel equals ≈ $1,142.8571M PER PERSON IN THE US.

That's a million dollars + for every US citizen alive (kids too), spent to subsidize israel. Not to mention our own resources, ships, inteligence and blood...seriously, fuck them. Fuck SA, Jordan, AE - All of them - all of them and their god-granted bullshit. 

The US is so wealthy it doesn't realize it, but they spend more money on Israel than it does on it's own Elderly. Seriously, fuck semites. Arabls. Aztecs. Whatever. NOT OUT PROBLEM. NOT OUR PROBLEM. Everyone wants the US to go away? GREAT. Egypt, you don't get 3B a year. Jordan, you don't get 2B a year. Turkey...hate us? No more 2B a year. SERIOUSLY, FUCK THESE PEOPLE. 

uck you, Christians, jews, and you too Islam. All of you. Fuck you. I don't give a shit about any of your god in the sky virgin redemption theories. Israel doesn't deserve our money and Palestine doesn't deserve our tears. Fuck your death by religion, both of you. 

 

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On 11/19/2023 at 2:34 AM, InkaUtexas said:

Don't agree. things were changing. Turkey has always traded with Israel. They were working on a pipeline for the offshore project. Jordan was developing a desalinization project with Israel. Saudi Arabia was talking about normalizing relations. Shit, you have Israelis going to Dubai as both investors and tourists. October 7th changed all of that. 

I spent 7 years living in the Middle East. One team in the company I worked for was involved in some development projects in Israel. Mainly agriculture technology they were using in Africa. To get there they would travel to Turkey and then Tel Aviv. In Turkey their passports would not be stamped upon entry in Israel or Turkey.  Instead there would be a peace of paper stamped and inserted. Why? Because no one with an Israeli stamp could enter the UAE and we all lived there. Me with my Afghan visa? No problem. 

A two state solution could work. But it requires guarantees by both Egypt and Jordan. Israel has pretty good relations with them. Do no confuse Syria with Oman. Yemen with Jordan. 

You're talking about some of the more progressive countries though. Most in the region still hate Israel, and it has been that way since it was founded. Let's run down the list of countries: 

Egypt and Jordan have had decent relations with Israel and the US for a while. Turkey has always tried to straddle the line between gaining EU membership and Western acceptance, and maintaining its role in the Muslim Brotherhood. They have recognized Israel for a long time, so nothing new there. 

Qatar and UAE have good relationship with Western countries, they know where their money comes from, and they don't seem to worry about the backlash of diplomatic relations with Israel. I would imagine Kuwait could fall in that category too if given the right deal, but they prefer to align with other Arab states. 

Saudi is a bit like those in the sense that their economic prosperity is largely driven by the US and EU, however I can't make heads or tails of where their future lies. They are slated to join the BRICS on January 1st, and that does align them more with China/Russia and their cohorts. I think Trump's lack of response against Iran in 2019, after Iran sent drones into Saudi and bombed their oil fields, caused the Saudis to take a hard look at what they are going to do in the future and who they are going to align themselves with. If the US protection guarantee is no longer there, then they need a new army to protect them from the next Saddam, or avoid doing anything that would create war with Iran and other neighbors. Normalizing relations with Israel wouldn't really help them unless the US agrees to protect them from Iran, Houthis, etc. I don't know how serious it is that they considered joining the Abraham Accords, unless US protection guarantees were on the table. It would seem like an unforced error to sign it without huge concessions and protection from the US. If China and/or Russia wants to fill that role, then I guess we will have some difficult times ahead for US foreign policy. 

Morocco signed on to the Abraham Accords in order for the US and Israel to recognize their claim to Western Sahara. A move that nobody else in the UN recognizes, as it's considered occupied territory much like settlements in the West Bank.  That was a huge fuckup by Trump's State Department for no real benefit other than adding to the total number of countries in his deal. That's about the diplomatic equivalent of The Coalition of the Willing signing on a bunch of Pacific island nations.  Not much of a victory, and now how the hell do we counter any other claims of occupied land in the world when we recognize both of those?  Russia wants to keep newly occupied east Ukraine, well we let 2 other countries do it now so... uhhh... 🤷‍♂️ It also complicates the 2 state solution, as the new state(s) would require Israel giving up occupied territory. 

So who else is going to sign on to recognize Israel then? Who is going to maintain diplomatic relations and a ceasefire? How many are going to stop supporting terrorist groups as a proxy? Are any of these in the region a realistic option? 
Syria
Lebanon
Iran
Yemen
Oman
Iraq
Kuwait
Gaza/West Bank

Because if you can't get some of these countries on board (Iran, Syria and Yemen aren't happening), then you will continue to have war in Israel. Creating a state out of Gaza and the West Bank doesn't fix that. It doesn't stop rebel groups from launching rockets at Israel, and if anything, it just increases the ability of those terror groups to acquire weapons to kill more Israelis. The Houthis have been a conduit for Iranian terrorism in the region for over a decade now, Hamas is much the same but more limited due to Israel's control. If you remove the blockades and iron grip on the region, then the next missiles they launch won't be made from sewer pipes. So I understand why Israel wants to maintain control over them, I understand that it's a foreign occupation, and that it's an awful situation for everyone involved, but how else should Israel deal with it? Turn over control to the Palestinians and hope/pray they don't get significantly more powerful weapons?  Would you want Israel to make that agreement if you were a citizen living there?  

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From that article:

Quote

According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”

According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.

AI mass targeting people for bombing is horrifying.

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20 minutes ago, pacman said:

This website has dozens of articles why Israel are monsters. I agree with a lot of them. 

Not one single fucking article about Hamas being monsters. Not one article about Palestinians in Gaza pleading for Hamas to leave Gaza or be punished for their actions.

In fact, right after Oct 7 they posted an article basically saying welcome to what is our daily existence. Yes attacks are civilians are war crimes, but what did you expect. 

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-attack-context-israelis/

 

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1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

This website has dozens of articles why Israel are monsters. I agree with a lot of them. 

Not one single fucking article about Hamas being monsters. Not one article about Palestinians in Gaza pleading for Hamas to leave Gaza or be punished for their actions.

In fact, right after Oct 7 they posted an article basically saying welcome to what is our daily existence. Yes attacks are civilians are war crimes, but what did you expect. 

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-attack-context-israelis/

 

I think that's probably because it's a magazine by Jewish liberals speaking to a Jewish audience that already knows Hamas are monsters.

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That article is fucking nuts.

 

"Sorry Ahmed, see there is this thing called a receiver operating characteristic plot, and well, you know...."

 

On Oct. 22, the Israeli Air Force bombed the home of the Palestinian journalist Ahmed Alnaouq in the city of Deir al-Balah. Ahmed is a close friend and colleague of mine; four years ago, we founded a Hebrew Facebook page called “Across the Wall,” with the aim of bringing Palestinian voices from Gaza to the Israeli public.

The strike on Oct. 22 collapsed blocks of concrete onto Ahmed’s entire family, killing his father, brothers, sisters, and all of their children, including babies. Only his 12-year-old niece, Malak, survived and remained in a critical condition, her body covered in burns. A few days later, Malak died.

Twenty-one members of Ahmed’s family were killed in total, buried under their home. None of them were militants. The youngest was 2 years old; the oldest, his father, was 75. Ahmed, who is currently living in the UK, is now alone out of his entire family.

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4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

From that article:

AI mass targeting people for bombing is horrifying.

One of the striking things about that article is that it does a deep dive into the differences scale, intensity, and tolerances for civilian causalities between Israeli strikes since October 7 and previous Israeli operations in Gaza— while not referencing any context for the motivations. The escalation ladder is real, folks, and you don’t climb up a rung without risking that the other side climbs up a few too. The scale of October 7 in proportional terms is far beyond what we saw on 9/11 and so Hamas finds themselves (and the civilians they swim among) in a pretty tough place on the asymmetric adversary ladder:

image.jpeg.b8f3f67025621aa38d069051273c27a1.jpeg
 

The AI thing is where modern warfare is going. It will cause the same discomfort we felt when we started launching Hellfires from Reno instead of from the cockpit of an F-18.  We may not want a revolution in military affairs, neither did cavalry officers in 1914, but revolutions sweep away all before them.  

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I am inclined to be pro-Israel. Reading accounts of Israeli atrocities is tough. I would like if someone could explain them away, or provide a plausible reason to deny them; it would make me feel better. Or maybe something else happens, and I can ignore them. 
 
But, you can’t deny or explain many of them. They are just really bad, even evil, things done by members of a group I have an affinity for. I have a saying- “the truth is not always your friend, but you can’t let it be your enemy”. 
 
I get why some Palestinian supporters want to deny some of the 10-7 atrocities, or blame them on the IDF. Same deal. 
 
As an American, I can come to terms with My Lai. (It helps that an American warrant officer, Hugh Thompson, stopped it, after so many innocent Vietnamese civilians were slaughtered. It would be even more shameful if Calley’s group “finished the job” and covered it up, and Americans were given an opportunity to deny it happened). Those were bad men, they needed to be punished, far worse than they were. We just have to live with that shame. 
 
Mahmudiyah was another example of shameful criminality, perpetrated by US soldiers. We did a better job of punishment; those assholes will never see the light of day, again. Again, denying and explaining is a stupid exercise. 
 
In these incidents, I think a helpful tool is to remember to blame people for what they do, and not who they are. Hamas terrorists/militants are committing horrible war crimes and they deserve punishment. Any IDF soldiers that commit war crimes should also be punished. (I don’t believe bombing civilian population centers where the enemy is harbored is a war crime; the war crime is hiding among innocent civilians). 
 
Palestinian civilians, no matter what views they may have, haven’t done anything. I see no reason to hate or punish them for Hamas’ crimes. 

Edited by statsman
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6 hours ago, statsman said:

I am inclined to be pro-Israel. Reading accounts of Israeli atrocities is tough. I would like if someone could explain them away, or provide a plausible reason to deny them; it would make me feel better. Or maybe something else happens, and I can ignore them. 
 
But, you can’t deny or explain many of them. They are just really bad, even evil, things done by members of a group I have an affinity for. I have a saying- “the truth is not always your friend, but you can’t let it be your enemy”. 
 
I get why some Palestinian supporters want to deny some of the 10-7 atrocities, or blame them on the IDF. Same deal. 
 
As an American, I can come to terms with My Lai. (It helps that an American warrant officer, Hugh Thompson, stopped it, after so many innocent Vietnamese civilians were slaughtered. It would be even more shameful if Calley’s group “finished the job” and covered it up, and Americans were given an opportunity to deny it happened). Those were bad men, they needed to be punished, far worse than they were. We just have to live with that shame. 
 
Mahmudiyah was another example of shameful criminality, perpetrated by US soldiers. We did a better job of punishment; those assholes will never see the light of day, again. Again, denying and explaining is a stupid exercise. 
 
In these incidents, I think a helpful tool is to remember to blame people for what they do, and not who they are. Hamas terrorists/militants are committing horrible war crimes and they deserve punishment. Any IDF soldiers that commit war crimes should also be punished. (I don’t believe bombing civilian population centers where the enemy is harbored is a war crime; the war crime is hiding among innocent civilians). 
 
Palestinian civilians, no matter what views they may have, haven’t done anything. I see no reason to hate or punish them for Hamas’ crimes. 

Well, if the stories you’ve read were posted by @Anastasis, and were authored by dci-Palestine, the following link casts suspicion on dci’s credibility. To be fair, this link might be fake news, and dci might be legit. Unfortunately, the legit sites that review news outlets haven’t spoke to dci-Palestine.

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/defence_for_children_international_palestine_section/

Edited to say that ngo-monitor has a mixed relationship with credibility. 

Edited by Willfully Horn
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3 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Edited to say that ngo-monitor has a mixed relationship with credibility. 

That is certainly one way to say it. Another might be that NGOM "is not an objective watchdog: It is a partisan operation that suppresses its perceived ideological adversaries through the sophisticated use of McCarthyite techniques – blacklisting, guilt by association and selective filtering of facts" (Didi Remez). They basically try to shit on and undermine any group that attempts to report on human rights in the Occupied Territories, including groups like B'Tselem. 

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4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

That is certainly one way to say it. Another might be that NGOM "is not an objective watchdog: It is a partisan operation that suppresses its perceived ideological adversaries through the sophisticated use of McCarthyite techniques – blacklisting, guilt by association and selective filtering of facts" (Didi Remez). They basically try to shit on and undermine any group that attempts to report on human rights in the Occupied Territories, including groups like B'Tselem. 

While I don’t doubt that, I still am unsure of how reliable dci-p is. They are a branch of a terrorist government, after all.

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9 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:


Nobody can. It's just that who the terrorists are differs, depending wholly on whom you ask.

 

I may be going out on a limb, but I think the guys who grab a 14 year old girl, rape her by forcing her ankles up by her ears, and break her legs and pelvis by dropping all their weight on her in that position, and then put a bullet in her head after finishing,…those guys are terrorists. 
 
The guys that take an infant and put it, living, into an oven, turn on the heat and walk away? Those guys are terrorists. 

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

I may be going out on a limb, but I think the guys who grab a 14 year old girl, rape her by forcing her ankles up by her ears, and break her legs and pelvis by dropping all their weight on her in that position, and then put a bullet in her head after finishing,…those guys are terrorists. 
 
The guys that take an infant and put it, living, into an oven, turn on the heat and walk away? Those guys are terrorists. 

I would say be careful with this logic. the idf and israel have done some rank shit. 

we all need a little lester freeman in our lives.

follow the arms and the terrorist acts and you will find terrorists and the terrorist leaders. follow the money, who knows where the fuck is going to take you. 

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There is zero equivalence between the IDF and Hamas/IJP.  The IDF has the capability and the current mandate to inflict violence on a larger scale. But don’t get twisted: for Hamas/IJP murder, rape, torture, kidnapping, and terror are not by-products, aberrations, or even means to an end. They are the end in and of themselves. 
 

This is why I posted up thread that the current trendy framework of viewing morality and ethics through a lens of “who has power” is a broken worldview. Sometimes, often even, the powerful are the more good, or least bad. 

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15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There is zero equivalence between the IDF and Hamas/IJP.  The IDF has the capability and the current mandate to inflict violence on a larger scale. But don’t get twisted: for Hamas/IJP murder, rape, torture, kidnapping, and terror are not by-products, aberrations, or even means to an end. They are the end in and of themselves. 

Everybody who has read your posts here knows how deeply emotionally invested you are in these events.  And that is not meant as a slight.  But - to the family of innocent Palestinians killed by the IDF, they do not give a shit about the equivalent morality of the two different groups. It does not matter to them in that moment that a horrible thing was done to someone’s child on the other side - because they are too busy grieving the horrible thing done to their family.   I understand the true horror of what Hamas terrorists did. No marginally sane or moral person could not be deeply affected by it, with some combination of extreme sadness and a deep vengeance seeking anger.

But at the end of the day we are dealing with dead people. If one side causes a larger pile of innocent dead people than the other side, it should matter very little whether some of the smaller pile of innocent dead people had worse things done to them before they died than the dead innocent people in the larger pile.  You are unconsciously weighing the value of the deaths in a different manner. You seem to suggest it is not as horrible for a Palestinian parent who just dug the dead body of their small child out of rubble of their home to view that incident as deeply as the parents of the horrifically raped and murdered 14-year-old feel in their - what - more worthy horror?

That strikes me as deeply wrong.  Perhaps just as wrong to say there is zero equivalence as it is to say there is a perfect equivalence.  Neither take leads to successful communication and a more positive outcome. Your take is that intent and reasons to kill innocents is more important than the outcome of how many dead innocent people were killed by “better” people.  The dead do not care about that.  It is the same kind of thinking that says it is terrible for Japanese to do war crimes, but not so bad for American air power to firebomb major Japanese cities and kill 100 times more Japanese civilians than American military were killed in death marches and prisoner beheadings.  The so-called lack of our evil intent was not solace to the dead burnt babies in Tokyo.  We were fortunate that the Japanese culture is what it is, and their level of social acceptance and conformity prevented the type of reaction that Americans citizens would’ve had if Japan had firebombed California and killed 100,000 civilians. 

I get revenge.  My late father-in-law arrived with the Enterprise December 8, 1941.    He wished we’d dropped more nuke bombs.   The parents of the dead raped Israeli girl agree totally. Hate and vengeance are easy and ubiquitous defaults.

The IDF not only has the capacity to inflict violence on a larger scale, they historically have done so.  if they aren’t doing so now, it’s because of pressure from the United States and in other countries, and not from some deep sense of restraint.   If you measure the number of dead innocent civilian bodies on the respective piles, Israel and Hamas are auditioning to be Northern Ireland forever.   it looks like they may achieve that.   

tl:dr.    It is just as important to look at the number of dead civilians killed by a side as it is to look at the evil intent driving one side when they kill the other side’s innocent civilians.  The dead fucking. don’t. care.

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@Gatorubet, this take strikes me a deeply wrong on both a legal and moral level. 
 

On the legal side, it’s perfectly fair to say “the dead and their families don’t care about intent,” but third parties most certainly should and do. I even think you’re a lawyer, right? Every legal system in existence assigns different levels of culpability and guilt and takes intent into account and treats people and their crimes very differently. Intent is nearly always the core of what it means to be criminally liable. 
 

On a moral level, you’ve also argued yourself into a weird place.  Assigning equal equivalence to the United States and Imperial Japan (it’s always Japan and never the Germans in these comparisons) should give anyone with a sense of scale and history pause. The IJA and its crimes were so vast and so traumatizing it’s difficult to explain here. It’s 2023 and we celebrated a trilateral summit between the U.S. and its two most important Pacific partners (ROK and Japan), both wealthy democracies with basically no competing geopolitical interests. Why was it such a big deal to get them in the same room? Because of what the IJA did to Koreans during WWII, that the United States stopped. It absolutely makes a difference why someone is doing the bombing, and it makes a difference whether the atrocity is the goal or if it was a crime committed as part of a defensive war, or if it was a mistake in targeting (back to intent).

Not to mention you’ve also argued yourself into “perfect equivalence” between the 8th Air Force and the Wehrmacht and even SS. To quote you:

Quote

 If one side causes a larger pile of innocent dead people than the other side, it should matter very little whether some of the smaller pile of innocent dead people had worse things done to them before they died than the dead innocent people in the larger pile.  

I shouldn’t need to point out that Nazi Germany killed very few American and proportionally few UK civilians while we killed a great deal many German civilians both in air and ground combat.  That’s what it meant to lose a war, and there were very grave outcomes at stake. 

You go on to say that it matters little whether a child is killed in an air raid or raped to death. Was it morally equivalent whether a German child died in an air raid as when a Jewish child was stuffed in a gas chamber or shot in a ravine in western Ukraine? Those deaths can—and should— be weighed extremely differently and the armed forces that caused them are in no way and you know that very well.

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Also— and in a serious and not snarky way— please read some women and feminist historians, survivors and conflict scholars before saying that it doesn’t really matter whether someone is raped and killed in a war zone or whether they die in an air raid. Rape as a weapon of war is a big deal. It matters very, very much. 
 

I

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On 12/2/2023 at 8:02 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

There is zero equivalence between the IDF and Hamas/IJP.  The IDF has the capability and the current mandate to inflict violence on a larger scale. But don’t get twisted: for Hamas/IJP murder, rape, torture, kidnapping, and terror are not by-products, aberrations, or even means to an end. They are the end in and of themselves. 
 

This is why I posted up thread that the current trendy framework of viewing morality and ethics through a lens of “who has power” is a broken worldview. Sometimes, often even, the powerful are the more good, or least bad. 

Are you suggesting that the IDF (and other Israeli security forces) don’t subject Palestinian women to sexual violence, including rape?

Or are you saying that the rapes performed by Hamas is worse than the rapes performed by Israel?

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1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Are you suggesting that the IDF (and other Israeli security forces) don’t subject Palestinian women to sexual violence, including rape?

Or are you saying that the rapes performed by Hamas is worse than the rapes performed by Israel?

He's not only saying that, but straight up saying that Palestinian civilian lives are worth less than Israeli lives. His entire view on this issue is drenched in IDF propaganda. You're never going to convince him that Palestinians are humans. They're animals to him, period.

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Like, he's not going to outright say it, but to him, Palestinians are uniformly no better than the Nazis.

There are plenty of people like him in this thread, many/most of whom will not say what they truly believe. There have been so many posts in here absolutely laced with Western/Israeli media propaganda and a hideous amount of Islamophobia, and half the time they probably don't even realize what they're doing and how genocidal their rhetoric is. It's made me lose all respect for some posters in this thread, and definitely all hope for not only the extended family I have in the region, but the world in general.

We're all bloodthirsty pieces of shit and it'd be great if an asteroid wiped us all out so we can't further pollute the universe.

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Palestinians are not Nazis, nor are they “like” Nazis. Hamas sure as hell is like Nazis. 
 
I would compare the Palestinians to the non-Nazi party citizens of Germany. They wanted Germany to win (patriotism, nationalism, social pressure, whatever), were not really given any choice in things (authoritarian government), and suffered for their government’s decisions. I’ve said before, on WWII threads, that Nazi Germany was hell- the first eight years, the Germans were the demons. The last couple, they were the damned. 
 
Palestinians, under Hamas rule, never got the period where they had the upper hand, never were the demons. They just get the part where they are the damned. 

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20 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Not anti-Semitic at all, right?  It's just about Israeli government policies or something.

I don’t understand these posts.  No one denies there is antisemitism in this world, some perpetuated by Palestinians and their supporters.  Just like there is anti-palestian-ism (not sure what is the best world, Islamophobia feels to broad and Palestinians are a Semitic people), some perpetuated by Israeli’s and their supporters.  
 

That there is antisemitism or anti-Palestinian-ism doesn’t excuse the horrific actions taken by both sides. 

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20 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

I don’t understand these posts.  No one denies there is antisemitism in this world, some perpetuated by Palestinians and their supporters.  Just like there is anti-palestian-ism (not sure what is the best world, Islamophobia feels to broad and Palestinians are a Semitic people), some perpetuated by Israeli’s and their supporters.  
 

That there is antisemitism or anti-Palestinian-ism doesn’t excuse the horrific actions taken by both sides. 

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

Probably the best post I've read in this thread in a long time, maybe ever.

 

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3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

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1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

You are still creating a false equivalency 

Any IDF soldier that has employed sexual violence against Palestinian women was not an intentional policy of Israel. There are pieces of shit everywhere. Many join the armed forces. US soldiers have committed similar acts of atrocity in Vietnam and most likely every war. That wasn't an intentional act by the United States. That was a piece of shit being a piece of shit. The solider, if reported, would be charged and convicted of a crime. The US and Israel do not celebrate rape. The Hamas soldier is not being charged with a crime, they are being celebrated by Hamas, and in some instances in these videos, by other Palestinians in the videos. 

It is not the same thing.

Yes. One is less bad than the other. 

I agree, Israel should be held to a higher standard. Why do you think they are being peer pressured by the United States into cease-fires for hostages exchanges? Sending humanitarian aid? Israel's run by far right pieces of shit too. This is the world holding them to a higher standard. 

Palestinian protestors are not calling for the end of Hamas. They are not protesting Hamas at Mosques. They are not calling for new elections in Gaza. Gazans are not helping Israel find and locate these terrorists. 

I think all people that want to live in peace and live in a free world should be held to a higher standard, and that includes Palestinians. 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I will try to provide some clarification (at least in regards to this thread)

No one supports Hamas. Most people don't support Israel's actions in Gaza, or even the West Bank. It is has been expressed throughout this thread. 

Nothing justifies the death of innocent civilians. 

There is one slight disagreement between parties in this thread, and generally, between anyone that falls on either side of the war. There is a tendency for Palestinians supporters to promote a false equivalency. I'm not saying I don't understand it. Innocent Palestinians are being killed in this war. It is horrible. I wish it wasn't happening. I say false equivalency because Hamas intentionally raped women to death. They intentionally decapitated children. They proudly did horrific things to innocent civilians. They filmed it, and proudly spread these videos. While Israel bombs killing women and children is also terrible. In my opinion, it is in no way equal to Hamas' actions. 

Now, I've read the articles that state Israel knew it was killing civilians with their bombs. While incredibly sad, militaries bombing targets that may or may not have collateral damage is not new. That doesn't make it equivalent. They asked Palestinians to leave the area before they started their campaign. They set up corridors for them to leave the area after they started their campaign. They don't want to kill civilians. If they could wave a magic wand and not kill any civilians and only Hamas targets, they would. Hamas wants to kill civilians. That is the difference. And yes, it's a big difference. 

 

 

 

 

This is exactly it. Making any kind of equivalence to Hamas and Israel or the IDF is offensive and horribly informed. And we all understand the implication. If Hamas (a fanatical, totalitarian, terrorist organization) has no right to exist, then neither does Israel when you make those equivalencies. And moreover the voice that are the loudest in saying “Hamas =/= Palestine” are often the first to say “Hamas and Israel are equivalent.” 

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2 hours ago, Jatrain said:

I appreciate this post, but will quibble with one part of it.  If we are to solely focus on Hamas’s actions on October 7th (and up to now) and Israel’s reaction to that, as you have in your post, then yes I would agree that there would be a false equivalence.  

But that focus fails to take into what has happened in the decades of occupation before 10/7.  IDF soldiers (and other Israeli security forces) have employed sexual violence, including rape, against Palestinian women (cites provided by request). According to the UN, an average of almost 1 child per week is killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.  An additional 700 are arrested and detained, without trial. UNICEF details practices that are classified as “cruel, inhuman, or degrading” according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention Against Torture, both ratified by Israel and the PA.  

I don’t think it’s a false equivalence to say that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Hamas is bad and that rape and murder/torture of children when performed by Israeli forces is bad as well.  I don’t think one is “less bad” than another.  

That being said, I don’t think that Hamas and Israeli are equal, despite their actions having some equivalence.  Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a liberal democracy with the benefits (American $ and weapons) and responsibilities (to both their citizens and to their Palestinian subjects) that come along with being a member of world community.  Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas.

I've never mentioned this before, but I am the head of Hamas.

Earlier this year I was thinking about rewriting our constitution and taking out that whole "Israel shouldn't exist" thingy.  I also thought about reaching to the world and letting them know we've changed our ways.  No more rocket firing or tunnels and all that.  All we are saying is give peace a chance.  How bad can the Israelis be, if you're earnest?  I was ready to try.  I was thinking about doing things that helped my people as a whole, so no more skimming money and hiding it in Qatar.  Maybe even have a real election and do some of that democracy stuff.

Then I woke up on the day of the OU game and said, fuck it.  "Let's get out there and kills some people!" just like that Jack Palance movie ('member that one?).  Things were great for about a day or so afterward.  Was I wrong?

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I have only paid attention to this "new" war for a few days after October 7th. 

I was under the impression that the entire concept of the protests we are seeing in the US (and around the world?) is more of a backlash against the government and existence of the Israeli state since, well, its existence.  I find it a little odd that Gen Z (or whomever) is just now latching onto this notion, but I didn't understand it to be an attempt at equivocating Hamas and Israel.

It seems to me that a whole bunch of people decided that the way Israel came into existence wasn't fair to the Palestinians and that is the root cause of the protests.

Am I wrong?

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

  I find it a little odd that Gen Z (or whomever) is just now latching onto this notion, but I didn't understand it to be an attempt at equivocating Hamas and Israel.

It seems to me that a whole bunch of people decided that the way Israel came into existence wasn't fair to the Palestinians and that is the root cause of the protests.

Am I wrong?

The existence of no country is “fair.” Not a single fucking one. It’s only a function of time and attention that their existence comes to be accepted. Show me a country and I’ll show you an atrocity that happened at a key moment in its creation. 

And if the only one you give a shit about enough to protest is the existence of the world’s only Jewish country, then suck it up buttercup and accept how people will view that choice. 

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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The existence of no country is “fair.” Not a single fucking one. It’s only a function of time and attention that their existence comes to be accepted. Show me a country and I’ll show you an atrocity that happened at a key moment in its creation. 

And if the only one you give a shit about enough to protest is the existence of the world’s only Jewish country, then suck it up buttercup and accept how people will view that choice. 

Fair enough.  I am happy to discuss other countries as well (hello Native Americans), but I think part of the distinction that confuses people, including myself, is the inclusion of the Jewish faith as a race. I have always found that bizarre, as no other modern religion that I’m aware of gets included this way. 
 

Look, it’s clear there are huge opinions on this whole thing. I try and look at it from a rational perspective as best I can, as I have no real dog in this fight, apart from general human empathy and also being a good student of history.  Trying to learn and trying to find out what paths we can take to deescalation and maybe peace. 

So far, I find it unlikely there is a solution. 
 

 

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