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Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]


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3 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

It will be an L once the Taliban resumes control of the country.

 

Look…can I aggy this thing onto the memorial wall and take the undeserved  credit for this boondoggle, or not?

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I'd say a safe, and smart strategy, if a bit tail between your legs.  An announcement of troop withdrawal could spark some last minute revenge potshots, ambushes, and everybodies favorite game ...... Hide The IED.

Afghanistan is like what, 100-0 in the invasions their country ?   Even Alexander the Great couldn't beat the Afghanis.  

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5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Those people don't want to be ruled by anyone other than their elders. Like I said above, some cultures may not be fit for democracy or any other rule of law not implemented by their ancestors centuries ago.

They have their shithole and damned if anyone will move them beyond the 19th century.

First part of that is like reading Scottish history.

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5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Japan unconditionally surrendered after having 2 big ass bombs dropped on them. Germany was split in 2 with one side being Democratic and the other side only being Democratic in name. Not sure those are success stories of the people wanting and welcoming change versus having lost in war and having terms dictated to them.

What of our attempts at nation building has "succeeded"? Iraq? Latin American countries although the definition of "succeed" is certainly arguable.

 

Japan and Germany, too, have a sort of industriousness and malleability that led them to not only become what they did in WWII, but post-war under a more benign influence.

Japan is a fairly remarkable story.  After centuries of isolation and essentially medieval rule, under British and American influence, they became a near superpower with the arms and industrial might to wage a world war within the span of less than a century.

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9 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Maybe some cultures and peoples are not made for democracy. That's my take away.

I moved to the Middle East in my mid-20’s...went there straight from Washington DC with all sorts of high minded ideals in my head about the power of democracy in the area.

When I left, I carried 2 strong convictions:

() the idea that western democracy will work in these societies is laughably stupid.

() we need to find other sources of energy outside of their oil. 

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In case anyone is interested in a straight-forward, long-form, apolitical, objective set of interviews about the entire situation on the ground in Afghanistan, I highly recommend the Podcast series "Afghanistan After America" from Aussie photojournalist/freelance journalist Andrew Quilty. He has been on the ground living in Kabul for years now and has a series of interviews with really interesting people living there. He interviews an active Taliban commander, an ANA general, a pro-government media baron, various members of the Afghan intelligentsia, and a few more. I listened to the one with Taliban expert Rahmatullah Amiri and then binged the rest over the next few days.

 

The interviews are from late 2020, so a bit dated, but all discussions occur under the shadow of the Doha negotiations between the Afghan Govt and the Taliban. And while Quilty is somewhat outspoken against the US and how the war was conducted in some of his published writings, the interviews themselves are really fascinating and it really gives the listener an insight into just how deeply unchangeable the place really is at every level and facet of society. 

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23 hours ago, crash_davis said:

They entered from the north, smashing through the first barrier, ransacking buildings, loading anything that was not nailed down into trucks.

The troops could have least had a garage sale and would have come out with enough cash for a nice dinner at Applebee’s.

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15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Japan and Germany, too, have a sort of industriousness and malleability that led them to not only become what they did in WWII, but post-war under a more benign influence.

Japan is a fairly remarkable story.  After centuries of isolation and essentially medieval rule, under British and American influence, they became a near superpower with the arms and industrial might to wage a world war within the span of less than a century.

What is also remarkable about Japan post -war is they virtually did a complete reputation of war after their surrender to the US.  It was until more recent they've been more aggressive building up their military in part to counter balance China in that part of the world.  

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On 7/7/2021 at 9:19 AM, Newdoc said:

The troops could have least had a garage sale and would have come out with enough cash for a nice dinner at Applebee’s.

Dinner with Dorothy Mantooth?

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^^^ That business infuriates me. It’s not like we haven’t been doing this for decades and have an entire game plan in place for pulling out supporting personnel and their families when we eventually bail.

Why anyone would work with us on the ground is beyond me. Lie to get us there, lie about the situation on the ground in perpetuity and lie to those who trusted us as we vanish into the night.

It’s cowardly and pathetic, especially given our vast resources.

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1 hour ago, Party_Taco said:

^^^ That business infuriates me. It’s not like we haven’t been doing this for decades and have an entire game plan in place for pulling out supporting personnel and their families when we eventually bail.

Why anyone would work with us on the ground is beyond me. Lie to get us there, lie about the situation on the ground in perpetuity and lie to those who trusted us as we vanish into the night.

It’s cowardly and pathetic, especially given our vast resources.

Agreed. How have we not been preparing for this. We all knew how it would end. 

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Quote

Between 2010 to 2012, when the US for a time had more than 100,000 soldiers in the country, the cost of the war grew to almost $100bn a year, according to US government figures.

In addition, the US state department - along with the US Agency for International Development (USAID) and other government agencies - spent $44bn on reconstruction projects.

 

That brings the total cost - based on official data - to $822bn between 2001 and 2019, but it doesn't include any spending in Pakistan, which the US uses as a base for Afghan-related operations.

 

According to a Brown University study in 2019, which has looked at war spending in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, the US had spent around $978bn (their estimate also includes money allocated for the 2020 fiscal year).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-47391821

 

 

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~3,000 individuals died on Sept 11 which was the impetus (at least that we know of) for these wars. Imagine if we focused the resources we put forth to solve that problem to solve COVID and other ills impacting our country with far higher death rates. 

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30 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

US is going to start evacuating the Embassy in Kabul. 

I did not expect the Taliban to take the north so fast. Mazar is surrounded. Kabul is about to be surrounded. 

What I don't understand is how anyone with any say over the situation is at all surprised by both the results and the speed of those results.

I'm an amateur nobody, who has simply paid attention to the situation on the ground from a moderately educated perspective, and who has read a tiny bit of history (both recent and old).  This was always what was going to happen.

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Posted (edited)

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

 

 

EDIT:  Yes, Asia is a continent not a country (SEE: The Princess Bride).

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What I don't understand is how anyone with any say over the situation is at all surprised by both the results and the speed of those results.

I'm an amateur nobody, who has simply paid attention to the situation on the ground from a moderately educated perspective, and who has read a tiny bit of history (both recent and old).  This was always what was going to happen.

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

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7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

And matching wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line!

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6 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

You're assuming modern warfare is about trying to "win."

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19 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

Yeah, going after him, and finishing the mission would have been justified for sure, but they let that bastard slip away instead of a full out prosecution of his capture or kill.  Which would have been a far different mission than trying to control the whole country.

 It does seem we've learned jack shit from VN.

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4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, going after him, and finishing the mission would have been justified for sure, but they let that bastard slip away instead of a full out prosecution of his capture or kill.  Which would have been a far different mission than trying to control the whole country.

 It does seem we've learned jack shit from VN.

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

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The Pentagon is a jobs program and a not-unsubtle way to goose the economy. Hardly a waste from the point of view of capitalists.

To be fair, we could just keep the jobs program and have them pick up trash on highways instead of getting them killed or maimed in third world shitholes.
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  • immamac changed the title to Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]
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