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Red Five

Star Wars Episode IX

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Just finished watching it....

...uhmmmmm. Some good, some bad. So much missed potential and so many holes and pointless plots with limited character development. What could have been with this trilogy with one over all vision and direction. Just an over all mess

Curate's egg is the perfect description 

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Still Sucks.  For the same damn reasons.  Just a fuck you to real Star Wars fans, especially the ones who didn't cry and complain about TLJ.  Fuck you JJ...I'm usually a supporter of yours.

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On 2/13/2020 at 2:07 PM, Biff Tannen said:

I remember they faked me out with the Chewy death and I was fucking pissed for a few minutes.

Something about the absurdity of the ship tug-o-war never let my mind think about "Chewy" being on that ship

On 2/15/2020 at 1:03 PM, Drew said:

Still Sucks.  For the same damn reasons.  Just a fuck you to real Star Wars fans, especially the ones who didn't cry and complain about TLJ.  Fuck you JJ...I'm usually a supporter of yours.

Nice try, getting us to agree with you now about TLJ.....ewofucker

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21 hours ago, mulletpelini said:

Something about the absurdity of the ship tug-o-war never let my mind think about "Chewy" being on that ship

Nice try, getting us to agree with you now about TLJ.....ewofucker

Almost...but I know you're just pissed Wicket was only on screen for 5 seconds.

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I saw the movie over the break, and I left happy and entertained and appreciated the fact that it was more of a love letter to fans than some P.C. crap. For good or bad, I thought the Palpatine connection helped put Rey's Mary Sue in the first movies in context. The Stormjanitor remained a complete waste of space, Poe needed more screen time, dead Carrier Fisher is weird. And I loved how much the absence of terrible Tico annoys the PC crowd. Also agree with the myriad stupid plot holes outlined here ad nauseam - from the quick sand to the space horses, a bunch of crap did not make sense or too easy. Whatever though, I enjoyed it, and it tied a bow around the series. And the end of they day, Star Wars always has been a space western - a space spaghetti western. It lived up to that billing much better than TFA and TLJ.

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The Palpatine connection was not only stupid, but completely forced and unneeded.  And lived up to the billing better than TFA and TLJ?  LMFAO.

 

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9 minutes ago, Drew said:

The Palpatine connection was not only stupid, but completely forced and unneeded.  And lived up to the billing better than TFA and TLJ?  LMFAO.

 

Just for my own morbid curiosity: who would you have made the big bad after TLJ?

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The guy who killed his father and tried to kill his mom and everyone she cared about.

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The same one that we spent the last 5 hours showing how conflicted and unsure he was?  Bringing added depth to his character was literally the only thing that Rian Johnson did right.  I suppose a more talented writer/director could have built on that to flesh out a more nuanced, complex, even sympathetic villain.  But I think we can all agree that JJ Abrams is not that guy.

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2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

The same one that we spent the last 5 hours showing how conflicted and unsure he was?  Bringing added depth to his character was literally the only thing that Rian Johnson did right.  I suppose a more talented writer/director could have built on that to flesh out a more nuanced, complex, even sympathetic villain.  But I think we can all agree that JJ Abrams is not that guy.

It wouldn't have been hard to make Kylo a once conflicted, growingly evil main bad guy.  He is one of two good characters left in the series and would make a much better villain than Snoke or undead Palpatine.

As to the guy who liked it because it wasn't "PC crap" I'm gonna go ahead and guess you're one of those people who complains about commercials with mixed race couples or how the media's trying to shove (insert female perfomer) down your throat.

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14 hours ago, Ghost of Shag said:

Well, I see this thread has aged well.

about as well as these three episodes. christ, what a mess.

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I'm the biggest Star Wars apologist out there, but it still sort of confounds me that they didn't lay out a 3-movie narrative arc ahead of time.  

They had every opportunity in the world to do this.  They knew they were making a trilogy before they started; they signed up the core new actors for 3 movies.... why the slapdash approach to telling the story, basically starting from scratch three straight times?

I just don't get it.

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Because Disney saw this strictly as a money making venture. The timeline for these movies was way too accelerated. I believe the announcement of the sequel trilogy to the time it was released was 2 years. Everything was way too rushed. Iger wanted it to be like Marvel movies, something cranked out every year. Star Wars is not Marvel. It's a much smaller universe that people want stories out of. Marvel has 50 years of existing lore to build off of.

The original trilogy and prequel trilogy movies were each released within 3 years of the preceding one and had one person running the overall shape of the universe, granted with lots of help with editing and writing, at least for the first trilogy. 1977, 1980, 1983. 1999, 2002, 2005. Cramming it out and not slowly releasing these is a lot of the reason why they were so disjointed. The original trilogy each had different writers and directors. But Lucas had a way to tie them all together through his vision. Kathleen Kennedy isn't that person. She's a producer, not a visionary. It's pretty telling that only one of the Disney movies didn't have major issues with writing or directing, The Last Jedi. The rest all had issues with one or the other, Rogue One and TFA with writing and reshoots, Solo and Rise with firing directors and completely redoing the movie. The Mandalorian worked because Favreau wrote them all and Filoni was the creative vision behind it. 

Edited by mdmost

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5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Because Disney saw this strictly as a money making venture. The timeline for these movies was way too accelerated. I believe the announcement of the sequel trilogy to the time it was released was 2 years. Everything was way too rushed. Iger wanted it to be like Marvel movies, something cranked out every year. Star Wars is not Marvel. It's a much smaller universe that people want stories out of. Marvel has 50 years of existing lore to build off of.

The original trilogy and prequel trilogy movies were each released within 3 years of the preceding one and had one person running the overall shape of the universe, granted with lots of help with editing and writing, at least for the first trilogy. 1977, 1980, 1983. 1999, 2002, 2005. Cramming it out and not slowly releasing these is a lot of the reason why they were so disjointed. The original trilogy each had different writers and directors. But Lucas had a way to tie them all together through his vision. Kathleen Kennedy isn't that person. She's a producer, not a visionary. It's pretty telling that only one of the Disney movies didn't have major issues with writing or directing, The Last Jedi. The rest all had issues with one or the other, Rogue One and TFA with writing and reshoots, Solo and Rise with firing directors and completely redoing the movie. The Mandalorian worked because Favreau wrote them all and Filoni was the creative vision behind it. 

I'm sure the timeline didn't help, but the 3-year span between the original films and the prequels didn't have anything to do with story development. It largely had to do with the very long post-production time because, in both the OT and prequel trilogy, ILM was literally inventing VFX techniques that they were using in each film.  They weren't doing anything like that in the new films... everything was pretty much stuff that everyone has been doing for years.

They had PLENTY of time to, at a bare minimum, outline the story they were trying to tell over the three-movie arc.  They didn't need to have three finished scripts before they started shooting TFA, but it literally appears they had NO IDEA where the story was going.  Their strategy was to let Abrams do what he wanted with the first one, then let a new writer/director pick up the story and take it wherever they wanted.  That's just fucking stupid, in terms of storytelling.

They could have very easily churned out 1 movie a year by filling in with the anthology movies, like they started to do with Rouge One and Solo.  THAT'S where you give writer/directors free reign to do whatever they want around edges of the main story. Rogue One was perfect in that way.  Solo was less so because (if it were me) I wouldn't have let the anthology stories deal with any of the primary saga main characters.

Oh well.

Hopefully the success of The Mandalorian will enable Filoni/Faverau to be the new "caretakers" of all future Star Wars stories.

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1 hour ago, oSuJeff97 said:

They could have very easily churned out 1 movie a year by filling in with the anthology movies, like they started to do with Rouge One and Solo.  THAT'S where you give writer/directors free reign to do whatever they want around edges of the main story. Rogue One was perfect in that way.  Solo was less so because (if it were me) I wouldn't have let the anthology stories deal with any of the primary saga main characters.

They tried to do it your way with a movie every year, and people didn't like what they produced. You as a "Star Wars apologist" might not see this, but it is likely that there is a finite amount of interesting, meaningful content that can be produced from the "Star Wars universe", especially when you're trying to stretch something as thin as the story underlying the first three movies into a prequel and then sequel trilogy. 

On the subject of the development timeline, slowing down wouldn't have guaranteed that the content produced was high-quality, but it would have allowed for more time to reflect on the choices being made, and more time to fix it if it were found lacking. 

None of this matters because it's so hard to lose money on Star Wars, no matter how badly you do it. Partly because no matter how badly you do it, there will still be people offering excuses for it and insisting "bad isn't that bad, it's still entertainment". 

The original trilogy was a fun, silly, light story. The prequel trilogy was an earnest but clumsy and unnecessary effort to backfill more of that story. The sequel trilogy was a trashy, soulless cash grab. The only thing that amazes me at this point is that more people weren't insulted enough to tune it out. 

Edited by SwanderedTalent

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They brought back a major character from the dead after 35 years and didn’t explain why he wasn’t dead anymore. He was just there.

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And the dude is an ancient sith who is really into cloning. There are a lot of ways they could have gone with the explanation, but for some reason they went with zero explanation.

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18 minutes ago, Red Five said:

They brought back a major character from the dead after 35 years and didn’t explain why he wasn’t dead anymore. He was just there.

And his death ended the redemption arc that tied the first 6 movies together.  No biggie.

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1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

They tried to do it your way with a movie every year, and people didn't like what they produced. You as a "Star Wars apologist" might not see this, but it is likely that there is a finite amount of interesting, meaningful content that can be produced from the "Star Wars universe", especially when you're trying to stretch something as thin as the story underlying the first three movies into a prequel and then sequel trilogy. 

Bullshit.  It's only constrained by the imaginations of the creators.

Look what Dave Filoni has done with Clone Wars, Rebels and the Mandalorian.  He's created a shit ton of fantastic Star Wars content in three different eras of the Star Wars universe. (Also due credit to Jon Faverau for the Mandalorian)

As for the anthology films, the fans general reaction to Rogue One was almost universally positive.  Solo was more mixed, but that highlights my main issue in that they shouldn't have centered an anthology film around one of the OT's main characters. 

There are PLENTY of good stories that can be told in the SW universe.  They just need the right people (Filoni, Favreau) to tell them.

Edited by oSuJeff97

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1 minute ago, oSuJeff97 said:

Bullshit.  It's only constrained by the imaginations of the creators.

I guess they should get better creators then!!!!! Because the last three movies they made were widely disparaged trainwrecks.

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1 hour ago, Red Five said:

They brought back a major character from the dead after 35 years and didn’t explain why he wasn’t dead anymore. He was just there.

 

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

And everyone was just like...okay. 

 

49 minutes ago, WBT said:

And his death ended the redemption arc that tied the first 6 movies together.  No biggie.

it was a truly bizarre decision, but their hand was forced when rian johnson had kylo murder snoke (and don't get me started on snoke, or the whole story framing in general, or i could seriously nerd out on what they should have done) which left them bereft of a big bad. the plan for kylo all along was some sort of redemption but they fucked the whole thing up from the jump. for one, the republic and the first order should have been in opposite places of power, but whatever.

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I really don't understand how you couldn't just have Kylo be the villain of the final one and in the end he has a Colonel Nicholson from Bridge Over the River Kwai moment of "my God, what have I done" where he realizes his mistakes and accepts what he must do to redeem himself. You could've had the First Order spin out of his control where he and Rey then have a common enemy. There was lots of things you could've done with Kylo but it's much easier for JJ to have his Big Bad out of nowhere...just like Snoke, a.k.a. Emperor Puppettine.  

Edited by mdmost

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2 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I guess they should get better creators then!!!!! Because the last three movies they made were widely disparaged trainwrecks.

Agreed.

That's why I said Filoni and Faverau should be in charge of, or at least have input, on every Star Wars story going forward. 

Just in terms of storytelling, Clone Wars, Rebels and the Mandalorian collectively are the best Star Wars content to come out since the OT, and it's not particularly close.

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2 hours ago, mdmost said:

I really don't understand how you couldn't just have Kylo be the villain of the final one and in the end he has a Colonel Nicholson from Bridge Over the River Kwai moment of "my God, what have I done" where he realizes his mistakes and accepts what he must do to redeem himself. You could've had the First Order spin out of his control where he and Rey then have a common enemy. There was lots of things you could've done with Kylo but it's much easier for JJ to have his Big Bad out of nowhere...just like Snoke, a.k.a. Emperor Puppettine.  

From a broader perspective, I think it would have been really interesting to not just re-tread "Rebels vs. Empire!"

On a broad scale, the prequels were how a Republic crumbles from within and becomes a totalitarian Empire; the OT was about a rebellion against that Empire and restoring the galactic Republic.

The new trilogy could have broadly examined another attempt to subvert the Republic from within and form another Empire, but this time the plot is stopped and the new Galactic Republic "wins."  That (to me) makes a lot more sense than some Empire splinter group completely destroying the new Republic and just taking over out of nowhere. 

The whole idea of the "Resistance" even existing right off the bat in TFA just seemed so weird.... why was a "Resistance" to the First Order even needed? 

If it was a known threat, why couldn't the actual established government take care of it?  When one thinks of a "Resistance" it is typically against a tyrannical government or an occupying force... not against (essentially) a splinter terrorist organization bent on overthrowing the existing government.

Just dumb, lazy writing.

Edited by oSuJeff97

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18 minutes ago, oSuJeff97 said:

From a broader perspective, I think it would have been really interesting to not just re-tread "Rebels vs. Empire!"

On a broad scale, the prequels were how a Republic crumbles from within and becomes a totalitarian Empire; the OT was about a rebellion against that Empire and restoring the galactic Republic.

The new trilogy could have broadly examined another attempt to subvert the Republic from within and form another Empire, but this time the plot is stopped and the new Galactic Republic "wins."  That (to me) makes a lot more sense than some Empire splinter group completely destroying the new Republic and just taking over out of nowhere. 

The whole idea of the "Resistance" even existing right off the bat in TFA just seemed so weird.... why was a "Resistance" to the First Order even needed? 

If it was a known threat, why couldn't the actual established government take care of it?  When one thinks of a "Resistance" it is typically against a tyrannical government or an occupying force... not against (essentially) a splinter terrorist organization bent on overthrowing the existing government.

Just dumb, lazy writing.

yes, this is basically where i was heading above when i said they needed to be in opposite spots. i mean, the first order could still be an imperial splinter group, but they are the ones now in rebellion to the republic. that's the starting point, and they need a charismatic villain, not brooding kylo ren and snoke, whatever the fuck a snoke is. kylo should have been a confident, evil version of han solo. he wasn't. he was the hayden christiansen of the new trilogy. decent enough actor trying to act out a terribly conceived character. 

darth vader works because he's such an iconic arrogant badass. kylo is a wannabe, which is kind of okay, but he needs to be a badass wannabe. you can even have him throwing his lightsaber tantrum, showing he's not fully in control of his emotions. that's okay, i reckon. but his vying for snoke's (whatever the fuck a snoke is) favor with hux is a bit silly. i don't think them being natural rivals is a bad thing, in and of itself, but snoke snoking about really doesn't explain what a snoke is and why the fuck he's in charge here.

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and don't get me started on "starkiller base." what the actual fuck was that stupid shit. talk about a macguffin to eliminate the republic and establish first order hegemony. why would they kill all the people they want to rule? makes no fucking sense. the whole thing was a cock up from the start, and it all comes down to basic outlining for a cohesive narrative. 

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On 2/19/2020 at 5:49 PM, fellside said:

It wouldn't have been hard to make Kylo a once conflicted, growingly evil main bad guy.  He is one of two good characters left in the series and would make a much better villain than Snoke or undead Palpatine.

As to the guy who liked it because it wasn't "PC crap" I'm gonna go ahead and guess you're one of those people who complains about commercials with mixed race couples or how the media's trying to shove (insert female perfomer) down your throat.

Bless your heart - I think www.match.com still offers a free trial. Get some old pics, try to find some personality, and give it a shot. Projection is so 2000s.

The problem with Kylo is they modeled him after a Bernie Bro - an emasculated, angry pussy than bullies people but completely lacks substance.

Edited by Kyle

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On 2/19/2020 at 3:03 PM, Drew said:

The Palpatine connection was not only stupid, but completely forced and unneeded.  And lived up to the billing better than TFA and TLJ?  LMFAO.

 

Why? The community college catalog and Mary Sue and Stormjanitor were the definition of forced and unneeded.

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On 2/21/2020 at 5:34 PM, hayden_horn said:

and don't get me started on "starkiller base." what the actual fuck was that stupid shit. talk about a macguffin to eliminate the republic and establish first order hegemony. why would they kill all the people they want to rule? makes no fucking sense. the whole thing was a cock up from the start, and it all comes down to basic outlining for a cohesive narrative. 

Yeah it was stupid.  I'm fine with the First Order/Imperial splinter group developing some kind of super weapon in secret.... but for fuck's sake... don't just blow it up at the end of the first movie exactly like they did in Star Wars.  Do something different/interesting with it. 

Make it a looming threat that spans all three movies... maybe even show the First Order leadership debating on the merits of using it (for the very reason you describe) for added tension or something... making them less cardboard cutout villains... then you could have the "use it" side win out and wipe out almost all of the New Republic at the end of the second movie or something, putting the "good guys" in the "bad spot" leading into the final film.

There were soooo many possibilities that could have been so cool.  Oh well.

Again: lazy writing.

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So not just a clone. A clone with the Palpatine's "spirit" inside? Yeah, maybe no explanation at all was the right call. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Red Five said:

So not just a clone. A clone with the Palpatine's "spirit" inside? Yeah, maybe no explanation at all was the right call. 

That is very similar to the EU Dark Empire storyline, and I just assumed that was the case even though they didn't state it.  The Darksaber storyline was very good, but they couldn't do that anymore with 60-70 year old Luke, Leia, and Han.  I think they could have made something better out of it if the idea of Palpatine had been introduced in TFA. 

Edited by UT_OB1

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cloning Rey from lukes severed hand would have been a much better storyline.....would have explained why she freaked out when she first touched it.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

That is very similar to the EU Dark Empire storyline, and I just assumed that was the case even though they didn't state it.  The Darksaber storyline was very good, but they couldn't do that anymore with 60-70 year old Luke, Leia, and Han.  I think they could have made something better out of it if the idea of Palpatine had been introduced in TFA. 

Dark empire was Shakespeare compared to this shit though. 
Imperial civil war, Hutt underground, complex Luke. 

world devastators, unlike star killer base actually made sense   

 

Edited by Xian

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11 hours ago, mulletpelini said:

cloning Rey from lukes severed hand would have been a much better storyline.....would have explained why she freaked out when she first touched it.

 

37 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

that's a story for another time

i honestly think that was the initial plan. 

god this thing was all over the place. "story for another time" then never mention it again. wtf. would actually make sense for her to claim the name skywalker in the end.

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i honestly think that was the initial plan. 
god this thing was all over the place. "story for another time" then never mention it again. wtf. would actually make sense for her to claim the name skywalker in the end.

Imagine reading this story as a series of books, or one big book.
“Wtf??”

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8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

i honestly think that was the initial plan. 

god this thing was all over the place. "story for another time" then never mention it again. wtf. would actually make sense for her to claim the name skywalker in the end.

The fan response to the sequel trilogy has become so contentious that you have bullshit criticisms mixing in with legitimate ones, but even as someone who didn't care for TFA, I think there was plenty of story there that could have made for two acceptable sequels-- i.e., expounding on the how/why of the first one instead of Rian Johnson binning it and spiking the football in doing so. You will hear people deride TFA as pretty, pointless, derivative fan service, but I think that's only valid in light of what the 2nd and 3rd movies made of TFA's open storylines. Which is to say, nothing. 

They had a choice to make Maz Kanata or whatever her name was a key character in the 2nd and 3rd movies and develop that dangling storyline, and instead introduced and focused on new and dumb characters like Rose Tico and Admiral Holdo, retroactively making the Maz character pointless too. Nice.

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10 minutes ago, Red Five said:


Imagine reading this story as a series of books, or one big book.
“Wtf??”

(flipping rapidly after finishing)

"Are there... are there pages missing.....?"

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Captain Obvious - how can Rouge One, The Mandalorian, even Solo be awesome and these all stink? <bullettohead>

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(flipping rapidly after finishing)
"Are there... are there pages missing.....?"

For half the book, Snoke is the big bad guy, mysteriously pulling the strings behind the scenes. But then he’s dead, and Palpatine is back, somehow, and is now mysteriously pulling the strings behind the scenes.

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Was doing some updating on the office system the other night so I pulled up Ep. 4 on Disney and went ahead and watched the whole thing.  Probably somewhere north of 150x in my life I've seen this movie and yep still better than everything we've seen after 1982.

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On 3/3/2020 at 1:14 PM, Red Five said:


For half the book, Snoke is the big bad guy, mysteriously pulling the strings behind the scenes. But then he’s dead, and Palpatine is back, somehow, and is now mysteriously pulling the strings behind the scenes.

I can fix that

* hire George Lucas

* go back into TFA and whatever the second one was called and CGI replace Snoke with Palpatine

* insert 100% CGI scene in the last one where Rey and Kylo Ren talk and he's like "I thought we killed Palpatine?" and Rey says "no-- the Force is telling me IT WAS A CLONE, we have to stop this phantom menace before more clones can attack and get revenge for the Sith" 

easy peasy

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When they were shooting the cannons out from under the ships at the end it looked like their dicks were falling off.

 

I'm an intelligent consumer and critic of film.

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