Jump to content

CR: COVID-19 --Political Talk


Mrs Whiggins

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, HenryJames said:

They don’t know patient zero. There are lots of mild or asymptomatic cases. So if patient zero was one of those, they most likely wouldn’t have sought treatment.

OK, "Symptomatic Patient Zero".  That guy probably didn't go to the Wuhan wet market, either.  QED, boom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent points.  We're far too intertwined with China to effectuate any kind of economic sanctions, however competent the administration.

And, you're right, as long as China's behavior is not shown to have been intentional in the sense that they deliberately loosed a virus on the world, the precedent set by sanctioning accidental virus origin is dangerous.

China's "punishment" is probably going to be a global reevaluation of dependency on it for cheap goods and manufacturing.

Yeah this new “PUNISH CHINA FOR THIS” rallying cry is typically dumb.

 

Unless the Chinese government invented it and intentionally released it (which, come the fuck on), the plan to sanction and punish is just reactionary anger.

 

We didn’t punish Saudi Arabia for MERS, Uganda for Zika or West Nile, Mexico for H1N1, Guinea for Ebola.......

 

And if this started with lax security or outdated protocols at a Chinese lab, then maybe we should be helpful instead of punitive. We had Americans on the ground in Wuhan and In positions of influence in the WHO until Trump eliminated those positions.

 

Despite what the nutters at The Epoch Times and Alex Jones and the QAnon-ers are pushing, this isn’t China buttfucking the world.

 

It’s Mother Nature.

 

And when she decides to play Marie Curie again, she’s probably gonna start her next experiment with a virus in hillbilly roadkill or crawfish. And then sit back and laugh as the world blames the Americans who enjoy eating those disease vectors.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it still occurred in China with which the government censored and (tried to) covered up so I'm not sure what his point is. 
Edit-- meant to quote Jimmy and Henry

Question -

Do you think our government has censored information and lied about this virus?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

And if this started with lax security or outdated protocols at a Chinese lab, then maybe we should be helpful instead of punitive. We had Americans on the ground in Wuhan and In positions of influence in the WHO until Trump eliminated those positions.

 

What presence did we have in Wuhan that was eliminated?  I may have missed that one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:


Question -

Do you think our government has censored information and lied about this virus?

Not sure if I'd go so far as to say censored (you'd have to point out a specific instance) information but yes, they've absolutely lied almost every step of the way. 

Again, both the Chinese and American governments have put us into the mess we're in. I can acknowledge dotard's faults and China's separately, but that nuance is lost upon some. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

 

What presence did we have in Wuhan that was eliminated?  I may have missed that one. 

Something about CDC funding. They had a team in wuhan pulled in 2017 iirc but someone else I'm sure will fact check me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, BigHorn'13 said:

Something about CDC funding. They had a team in wuhan pulled in 2017 iirc but someone else I'm sure will fact check me. 

Yeah, I remember the story about the CDC epidemiologist who was training Chinese equivalents, but don't recall a story about somebody embedded in Wuhan.  Where they affiliated with the lab?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

What happened to Blue Lives Matter? And the Tea Party for that matter...

 

This makes me feel a little better about the police being on the right correct side when the shit hits the fan. The capital P Police don't have much power during anarchy. The individual cop doesn't like treatment like this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For our Pharm degree holders - interesting compilation of drugs that may be repurposed for treatment of Covid-19. From Nature - a peer reviewed accelerated article on the possible contenders:

"The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, the causative agent of COVID-19 respiratory disease, has infected over 2.3 million people, killed over 160,000, and caused worldwide social and economic disruption1,2.

There are currently no antiviral drugs with proven clinical efficacy, nor are there vaccines for its prevention, and these efforts are hampered by limited knowledge of the molecular details of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

To address this, we cloned, tagged and expressed 26 of the 29 SARS-CoV-2 proteins in human cells and identified the human proteins physically associated with each using affinity-purification mass spectrometry (AP-MS), identifying 332 high-confidence SARS-CoV-2-human protein-protein interactions (PPIs). Among these, we identify 66 druggable human proteins or host factors targeted by 69 compounds (29 FDA-approved drugs, 12 drugs in clinical trials, and 28 preclinical compounds). Screening a subset of these in multiple viral assays identified two sets of pharmacological agents that displayed antiviral activity: inhibitors of mRNA translation and predicted regulators of the Sigma1 and Sigma2 receptors. Further studies of these host factor targeting agents, including their combination with drugs that directly target viral enzymes, could lead to a therapeutic regimen to treat COVID-19."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2286-9_reference.pdf

spacer.png

Edited by washparkhorn
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"There’s a little bit of a God complex,” one senior administration official said of the group. “They’re all about science, science, science, which is good, but sometimes there’s a little bit less of a consideration of politics when maybe there should be.”

----

Once the FDA and U.S. Customs and Border Protection signed off on the deal, a Korean Air jet touched down at Baltimore-Washington International Marshall Airport on April 18 to deliver the supplies. Hogan said he was worried federal officials would try to commandeer the tests, so he had Maryland Army National Guard members and Maryland State Police officers escort and protect the cargo.

---

Officials continued to debate how restaurants, bars and houses of worship should operate. The CDC circulated a 17-page document with strong recommendations, but many in the White House resisted, particularly when it came to restricting parishioners from singing in choirs or sharing hymnals and offering plates, and suggesting that restaurants use digital menus and avoid salad bars. The document has not been made public and is still in the editing process.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/34-days-of-pandemic-inside-trumps-desperate-attempts-to-reopen-america/2020/05/02/e99911f4-8b54-11ea-9dfd-990f9dcc71fc_story.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I remember the story about the CDC epidemiologist who was training Chinese equivalents, but don't recall a story about somebody embedded in Wuhan.  Where they affiliated with the lab?

My bad - I should have typed she was embedded in China not Wuhan. My fingers work faster than my brain.

She had visited both labs in Wuhan and reported concerns there but she herself was not based there.

She would have been invaluable in the early stages of the outbreak and who knows if we could have learned valuable information that could have led to America acting sooner by not having to rely solely on the Chinese government for information.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:


My bad - I should have typed she was embedded in China not Wuhan. My fingers work faster than my brain.

She had visited both labs in Wuhan and reported concerns there but she herself was not based there.

She would have been invaluable in the early stages of the outbreak and who knows if we could have learned valuable information that could have led to America acting sooner by not having to rely solely on the Chinese government for information.

Right, I don't recall hearing about site visits to Wuhan, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me.  My understanding is that she was training Chinese epidemiologists, not really doing field work.  But that is besides the point.

 

If the lab origin story pans out, I don't thinking pulling some CDC staff from Beijing is the smoking the gun.  The smoking gun is the wire from the US embassy back to State that communicated that teh Wuhan lab was fuckery and going to start a SARS pandemic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, I remember the story about the CDC epidemiologist who was training Chinese equivalents, but don't recall a story about somebody embedded in Wuhan.  Where they affiliated with the lab?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv-idUSKBN21910S

Quote

The American disease expert, a medical epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency, left her post in July, according to four sources with knowledge of the issue. The first cases of the new coronavirus may have emerged as early as November, and as cases exploded, the Trump administration in February chastised China for censoring information about the outbreak and keeping U.S. experts from entering the country to help.

“It was heartbreaking to watch,” said Bao-Ping Zhu, a Chinese American who served in that role, which was funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 2007 and 2011. “If someone had been there, public health officials and governments across the world could have moved much faster.”

Zhu and the other sources said the American expert, Dr. Linda Quick, was a trainer of Chinese field epidemiologists who were deployed to the epicenter of outbreaks to help track, investigate and contain diseases.

As an American CDC employee, they said, Quick was in an ideal position to be the eyes and ears on the ground for the United States and other countries on the coronavirus outbreak, and might have alerted them to the growing threat weeks earlier.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5

Quote

WASHINGTON(Reuters) - The Trump administration cut staff by more than two-thirds at a key U.S. public health agency operating inside China, as part of a larger rollback of U.S.-funded health and science experts on the ground there leading up to the coronavirus outbreak, Reuters has learned.

Most of the reductions were made at the Beijing office of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and occurred over the past two years, according to public CDC documents viewed by Reuters and interviews with four people familiar with the drawdown.

The Atlanta-based CDC, America’s preeminent disease fighting agency, provides public health assistance to nations around the world and works with them to help stop outbreaks of contagious diseases from spreading globally. It has worked in China for 30 years.

The CDC’s China headcount has shrunk to around 14 staffers, down from approximately 47 people since President Donald Trump took office in January 2017, the documents show. The four people, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the losses included epidemiologists and other health professionals.

I think people get confused a little bit and made the jump from Beijing to Wuhan, although it's logical to think that more feet on the ground would have provided better intel from the secretive Chinese government.  Some will disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Right, I don't recall hearing about site visits to Wuhan, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me.  My understanding is that she was training Chinese epidemiologists, not really doing field work.  But that is besides the point.

 

If the lab origin story pans out, I don't thinking pulling some CDC staff from Beijing is the smoking the gun.  The smoking gun is the wire from the US embassy back to State that communicated that teh Wuhan lab was fuckery and going to start a SARS pandemic. 

Are you an epidemiologist? Because if you were, you would know an integral part of epidemiology training at CDC-type levels incorporates fieldwork (e.g. she was more than likely training future epidemiologists in the field).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Are you an epidemiologist? Because if you were, you would know an integral part of epidemiology training at CDC-type levels incorporates fieldwork (e.g. she was more than likely training future epidemiologists in the field).

It is not clear from anything I read that doing site visits to research facilities such as the Wuhan site was part of her role in China, but sounds like you might know more about it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The wearing of face coverings is little inconvenience to protect both the wearer and anyone with whom they have contact," McNickle said, condemning those who threatened violence. "It is unfortunate and distressing that those who refuse and threaten violence are so self-absorbed as to not follow what is a simple show of respect and kindness to others.

Edited by cactusflinthead
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

"The wearing of face coverings is little inconvenience to protect both the wearer and anyone with whom they have contact," McNickle said, condemning those who threatened violence. "It is unfortunate and distressing that those who refuse and threaten violence are so self-absorbed as to not follow what is a simple show of respect and kindness to others.

So all you have to do is threaten violence and you can do whatever the fuck you want in Stillwater?

Seems like a good strategy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

"The wearing of face coverings is little inconvenience to protect both the wearer and anyone with whom they have contact," McNickle said, condemning those who threatened violence. "It is unfortunate and distressing that those who refuse and threaten violence are so self-absorbed as to not follow what is a simple show of respect and kindness to others.

"Americans threaten violence and are so self-absorbed as to not follow what is a simple show of respect and kindness to others"

New National Motto

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For a little irony given where this virus originated I've found that now H Mart is the first choice grocery store I go for everything I can get there and only venture to regular stores if necessary simply because that's the only store that doesn't have fuck head Karen's and Bubba's walking around with no mask getting in your personal space. The Asian population here takes this more seriously than anyone else and no one is without a mask. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

"Americans threaten violence and are so self-absorbed as to not follow what is a simple show of respect and kindness to others"

New National Motto

Sort of like “Do onto others as.....”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This country is fucked.

 

This country has had people who have openly flaunted law and order for its entire existence.  The difference now is there's a major political party that openly supports that kind of behavior.

Modern day GOP politics is as hypocritical as anything this country has ever had.

 

 

 

Edited by Francisco 2.0
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/03/coronavirus-vaccine-trump-world-brawl-230142

 

Quote

When global leaders gathered virtually last month at the behest of the World Health Organization to commit to distributing a future coronavirus vaccine in an internationally equitable way, the United States didn’t join in.

On Monday, the European Union is hosting a gathering for countries to pledge funding for research into vaccines and treatments for Covid-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus. But once again the U.S. government isn’t expected to participate.

 

 

Quote

The Trump administration’s apparent lack of interest in cooperation has alarmed global health officials and diplomats as they seek to end a pandemic that has disabled economies and killed more than 240,000 people worldwide. The concerns are only deepening as President Donald Trump and his aides squabble with China and the WHO over the origins of the virus.

 

Quote

The fear is that Trump will be content with allowing the race to develop and distribute the vaccine to devolve into a global contest -- and that poorer countries will be left behind in the rush to procure doses. In essence: that the president’s “America First” view of world affairs as an atavistic scramble for power will lead to unnecessary suffering and death.

 

Spoiler

“The worst situation would be, if when these tools are available, they go to the highest bidder -- that would be terrible for the world,” said Melinda Gates, who, along with her tech entrepreneur husband, Bill, leads a powerful foundation that has devoted billions to health research. “Covid-19 anywhere is Covid-19 everywhere. And that’s why it’s got to take global cooperation.”

The ongoing global scramble for masks, gloves and other personal protective gear offers a harrowing and potentially instructive example. Now imagine, officials and experts say, a similar competition to obtain vaccine doses: It could drag out the health crisis by letting the virus spread for longer than it otherwise might, devastating the very countries least equipped to fight it.

And there are other risks. For one thing, another country, such as China, might develop a vaccine first and find ways to limit access to Americans.

“You would think that, based on the past, that the U.S. would be a galvanizing, lead element in pushing for transparency and early planning” on the vaccine front, said Stephen Morrison, who runs a global health program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “I don’t think that’s true in this administration.”

A European ambassador said he and his colleagues remain “hopeful” that the United States will take the lead on ensuring fair global vaccine access. “But we are a bit skeptical at the moment,” he said, “because we don’t see the forthcoming attitude that we’ve seen in the past.”

One disputed report in particular is driving much of the angst: that the Trump administration tried to acquire exclusive rights to the coronavirus vaccine business of CureVac, a German-based company. Trump aides and CureVac officials adamantly denied the mid-March report, but German officials confirmed and condemned it.

The U.S. is planning an intense push to create a vaccine and have enough doses available to cover most Americans by the end of this year, the president confirmed this week. The project is called “Operation Warp Speed,” according to Bloomberg News and other media reports, which described it as an effort to compress the usual process for developing a vaccine into a shorter timeline.

Asked about the project Thursday, Trump said he was in charge of it and that he was not overpromising. “Whatever the maximum is, whatever you can humanly do, we’re going to have,” the president said.

Health officials and analysts caution that it’s too early to go into full-fledged panic about a looming global vaccine fistfight.

An acceptable vaccine could be at least a year to 18 months away; companies across the world, especially in the United States, Europe and China, are in the hunt to find a vaccine, and some trials are already underway. Some diplomats carefully pointed out that by the time vaccines are ready for sale and distribution, Trump may no longer be president, and his “America First” ideas may be shunted aside.

“You have the election in six months’ time -- you never know,” an Asian diplomat told POLITICO.

But further blurring the picture is the fact that the global health infrastructure isn’t entirely under the thumb of any one government. It’s a complex amalgam of government bodies, private companies, NGOs, foundations and multilateral partnerships that at times do overlapping work. 

There’s no binding treaty or other mechanism that governs how a vaccine will be produced and distributed worldwide. And while the World Health Organization has for decades offered a forum for coordination, discussion and standard-setting, its authority is still limited, including when it comes to private companies with profit motives.

Trump has also dealt a blow to the WHO by recently pausing America’s substantial funding for it. He alleges that the U.N. body effectively helped China cover up the extent of the crisis when the virus first emerged in the Chinese city of Wuhan last year. The WHO’s supporters say Trump is trying to deflect attention from his own downplaying of the crisis early on.

But the growing U.S. hostility to the WHO is hardly the only obstacle to international coordination on a vaccine rollout: China likewise did not express support last month for a new global partnership to coordinate research and development for vaccines, tests and coronavirus cures. The absence of the two pharma powerhouses from the April 24 gathering, led in part by the WHO, disappointed European leaders, who are pushing for a cooperative approach. French President Emmanuel Macron said he hoped they could “reconcile this initiative with China and the U.S.”

Officials involved in the April 24 gathering as well as Monday’s planned EU-led conference stress that there is an American presence in such events even if the U.S. government itself doesn’t formally take part. A number of foundations, companies and others playing a role are U.S.-based.

“There is a strong American footprint in the whole construction,” European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said about Monday’s gathering in an interview with France 24. “We have a lot of American scientists and philanthropists that are working with us in this global framework we’ve created. The government of the United States is informed. And I hope they consider to participate.”

Asked about the Trump administration’s participation and plans for future international coordination on vaccines, a spokesperson for the U.S. State Department offered a vague comment that attacked the WHO.

“America’s world-leading scientists are working hard on a Covid-19 vaccine,” the spokesperson said. “We welcome serious efforts to assist in that endeavor and look forward to learning more about the World Health Organization’s proposal. We remain deeply concerned about the WHO’s effectiveness, given that its gross failures helped fuel the current pandemic.”

Spokespersons for the White House and the Department of Health and Human Services did not offer comment. 

The United States has historically been a leader in global vaccine initiatives, often footing much of the bill. Its interest dates back decades and covers successful efforts to eradicate or dramatically constrain diseases such as smallpox, polio and measles. The focus has often been on vaccinating children so that they never fall ill and over time contribute to what’s known as “herd immunity” in their broader communities.

But infectious disease crises that have arisen in more recent years have exposed weaknesses in a system that relies so much on goodwill and benevolence, rather than any particular set of international rules.

For example, the rise in 2009 of an H1N1 novel influenza led wealthier nations to put in large advanced orders for a vaccine and buy most of what was eventually manufactured, angering developing countries who lacked similar funds. The WHO and others managed to secure pledges of donations for the poorer countries, but even those were limited, according to research posted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. 

The Covid-19 crisis is in many ways more severe, with infections in more than 180 countries. Aside from the vaccine issue, it has exposed the frailty of global cooperation in other ways. Efforts to work together at the G-7, G-20 and United Nations level have had limited impact amid finger-pointing between Washington and Beijing.

It’s not just the U.S. that has put the needs of its own citizens first. Dozens of countries, including the U.S. and some in Europe, have imposed travel restrictions as well as limits on the exports of masks and other critical medical equipment.

Global health leaders are trying to avoid a repeat of such nationalist tactics when it comes to vaccines and other types of medicines that could combat Covid-19. They warn in particular that leaving the virus to fester in one country could, simply due to migration patterns, mean it will re-emerge elsewhere. And they say that a globally coordinated approach to distributing a vaccine -- prioritizing at-risk populations, for instance -- would yield better results.

Melinda Gates told POLITICO in an interview that medical workers should be at the head of the line for vaccinations because of their regular exposure to the virus. She also praised European leaders for being out in front in coordinating on vaccines and therapeutics.

“It’s the European leaders, quite honestly, who understand that we need global cooperation,” she said.

National security officials and public health experts also are increasingly concerned about the prospect of China developing a vaccine first, and how America’s unwillingness to take charge of global vaccine coordination might help both China’s economy and its propaganda efforts. 

“China does have a head start” in the global effort to come up with a vaccine, said one national security official who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss U.S. government concerns. “But they also have a pattern of theft and trying to steal everyone else’s research. So you would think they’d be very benevolent [with the vaccine] so as not to be seen as a pariah.” 

A spike in hacking attempts on U.S. hospitals and labs, which intelligence and national security officials have attributed primarily to China, is a sign of how high the stakes are for the Chinese government — especially as it attempts to repair its reputation amid accusations that it covered up the origins and severity of the novel coronavirus late last year.

“They know that whoever finds a workable vaccine right now basically rules the world,” said another national security official. 

The propaganda coup alone is a strong incentive, experts said. But the economic and diplomatic implications of being the first to develop a vaccine, especially if the U.S. continues to retreat, would be enormous for the Chinese Communist Party. 

Being able to vaccinate its own population first, for example, would serve as a strong “economic rudder” for China and allow it to fully open its economy to global companies, said Dr. Ross McKinney, Jr., the chief scientific officer at the Association of American Medical Colleges. 

It would also yield diplomatic leverage, said Matt Kroenig, a former Pentagon and CIA official who now serves as deputy director at the Atlantic Council’s Scowcroft Center. 

“Often, Chinese offers of aid come with strings attached,” said Kroenig, whose new book examines American power competition with China. “So they could use it as a way to try to increase their influence and further push out the U.S.”

But the question remains of whether the world would even trust a vaccine produced by China, Kroenig noted, given the recent episodes of China delivering faulty medical equipment to Europe. 

“One of the great advantages the U.S. has in this competition is that we have these 30 formal treaty allies with leading scientific research communities,” Kroenig said. “So we could and should be doing a much better job of galvanizing allies and bringing them together” on the vaccine issue. 

Having perceived a void in U.S. leadership in this area, the Atlantic Council convened an “allied town hall” on Tuesday to discuss how the U.S. and its allies could better cooperate on vaccine development — but the fact that a think tank, rather than the Trump administration, organized the event only drove the point home for some attendees that the U.S. is not positioning itself as a leader in this space.

Meanwhile, as their governments have been sparring, American and Chinese scientists have actually been cooperating on Covid-19 research. Researchers in the U.S. and China have co-authored about 407 papers on coronavirus this year, according to data compiled by Axios, and Pennsylvania-based Inovio Pharmaceuticals announced in January that it was collaborating with Beijing Advaccine Biotechnology Co. on a Covid-19 vaccine.

Such collaboration can be positive “as long as the information flows both ways,” said McKinney, of the AAMC. “But we’ve been finding that the information does not always flow both ways. So there is some asymmetry going on with regard to the research efforts that I think is the worry.”

Other joint U.S.-China research efforts have spawned mistrust: The Trump administration recently cut off grant funding to an American NGO that had been working with Chinese scientists at a lab in Wuhan, China, that some in the Trump administration suspect was responsible for unleashing the virus on the world.

Some officials and diplomats argue that instead of waiting for Washington and Beijing to cooperate on a vaccine, it’s better to work with those who are willing to cooperate now, while leaving the door open for the U.S. and China to join later.

“We can be in the camp of those who say without the U.S. and without China it’s useless, and we give up and we wait for the vaccine to maybe come one day, or we take action and find our third way,” a French official said.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

The government should exist, but only to protect me from my slaves. All else is tyranny.

You joke but that was basically the position of the Southern states pre civil war.  Wanted a weak central government but strong enough to put down slave revolts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This country is fucked.

If by fucked you mean politically and societally divided to the point of polarization where something as fundamental as scientific truth cannot be agreed upon and the division is causing the cultural and economic downfall of the country...

Then yes. Since 1980 when Regan was elected it's been unfounded wars, massive deficit spending, destroying Latin America with the war on drugs, and devolving to an Idiocracy level of stupidity. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

China pushing out older tech vax based on live attenuated strains. Oxford/AZ pumping out new tech that has yet to actually produce an approvable vax. There are obviously lots of companies doing everything in between, but I wouldn’t be surprised if China is first to market. The fda ain’t gonna let that shit near us shores though. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...