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Posted
10 hours ago, C-Man said:

"You paid off a loan!?!?"

chris-rock-what-you-want-a-cookie.gif

"You're supposed to you dumb MOTHERFUCKER!"

I raised my kids and I've been told I look like Chris Rock, so this hits close to home. 

 

(I do not look like Chris Rock) 

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Posted
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

On a more sanguine note relating to ambiguous and imprecise drafting, old statutes and old court decisions are wondrously poorly organized, often quite poorly written, except maybe in the "pithiest" parts, and carry a lot of excess verbiage, i.e. are "prolix," especially as compared to similar things of the last half century or so.

I tend to think people aren't much smarter today or more capable than in years past.  Empowered to do things better and more easily, sure.  

Maybe it's just appreciation for how loose wording can come back to haunt you, in these days where anything and everything is litigated to death, but it's kind of an odd phenomenon.

So... I'm not a lawyer, but took a few courses and studied with a several lady lawyers over the years. (yes, it was worth it.) 

I can attest that loose wording will come back to haunt you. 

But I was taught that all of the words, when ambiguous, were meant to support fairness and justice. 

Of course, we all know that is not how law is applied, but that is the supposed intent, according to the academics of law. 

I think Trump walks and becomes The Peoples Champ. 

Posted
9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

But with the Constitution, it's intent of the framers,

 

Which is bizarre to me, because the framers aren't the ones who gave it power.

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Posted (edited)

Did Trump promise to obey the laws set forth in the Constitution or any laws for that matter? 

Trump also didn't promise not to use the Constitution as toilet paper if he has to take a shit while defending it. 

Someone earlier posted that the word "support" is included in the dictionary definition of defend. I suppose Trump never promised that he would look up anything having to do with the law or his oath.

It was just words and lies. Business as usual for him and his party. We're accustomed to it, so it's okay.

Edited by RomaVicta
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Posted (edited)

Colorado judge rejected his argument. Case is moving forward. Said that the argument should be made at trial rather than at this point.

Edited by The Dog
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Posted
17 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

WTF's an "incorrect fact?"

 

kind of like an alternate fact. But different.

 

17 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know, I truly appreciate @TwiceHorn's continued efforts to clarify the law, but I think I appreciate the reactions even more.

 

His continued efforts to clarify the law are pushing me closer and closer to believing we should just guillotine anyone who is worth more than a few million dollars.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

His continued efforts to clarify the law are pushing me closer and closer to believing we should just guillotine anyone who is worth more than a few million dollars.

truly a credit to lawyers everywhere then

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Posted
9 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

His continued efforts to clarify the law are pushing me closer and closer to believing we should just guillotine anyone who is worth more than a few million dollars.

The good news is you won the lottery. The bad news is…

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Posted
16 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

kind of like an alternate fact. But different.

 

 

His continued efforts to clarify the law are pushing me closer and closer to believing we should just guillotine anyone who is worth more than a few million dollars.

 

 

 

 

 

How many is a few here? You know, for my retirement planning.

Posted
14 hours ago, Slacks said:

I raised my kids and I've been told I look like Chris Rock, so this hits close to home. 

 

(I do not look like Chris Rock) 

Yeah, WTF... 

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Posted
1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

His continued efforts to clarify the law are pushing me closer and closer to believing we should just guillotine anyone who is worth more than a few million dollars.

Happy If You Say So GIF

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Posted
17 hours ago, Slacks said:

I raised my kids and I've been told I look like Chris Rock, so this hits close to home. 

 

(I do not look like Chris Rock) 

I was mistaken for Lenny Kravitz in Vienna in the Summer of 1993.

(I'm white and have short mousy-blondish-brown hair.)

Posted
1 minute ago, Superhero said:

Some dumb Russian girl during high school said I looked like the King of Pop during the Bad era. 
 

image.jpeg.adae1ba0e01dd06bd4e149f71e524949.jpeg
 

Like I said, she was dumb. 

You look like Janet Jackson??

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Posted
On 10/13/2023 at 6:32 PM, Rimbo said:

I was mistaken for Lenny Kravitz in Vienna in the Summer of 1993.

(I'm white and have short mousy-blondish-brown hair.)

I was mistaken for Lenny Kravitz on a plane last month. 

Maybe you and I look alike. 

Posted

How many middle-aged black jew looking dudes we got on this site anyway?  

When I was younger, I got "You look like Corey Feldman" a lot.  Though he was older, richer, and had a markedly larger substance abuse issue.  I got older, put on muscle and fat and folks told me I looked like Liev Shreiber often.  Now I lost a bunch of weight, and muscle, and went very grey/salt.  So I get what my father used to get a lot in the 1980's..."You remind me of Steve Martin."  And now, I spend my middle-aged thinking of three people who'll never be in my kitchen, and are infinitely more talented than I am.  Well, maybe I'm better than Feldman.  But that's a low bar.  

Bringing it back to #45.  A friend of mine and I were talking at ACL recently.  I've got a couple conference this week and I'm gonna try out our theory (he was stoned out of his mind for the record).  When you want to end a conversation with someone on a folksy note...don't be specific about appearance, politics, or general personality, but just say, "Oh man, you remind me a lot of Donald Trump"...and then just smile and walk away.  Since almost nobody looks like a 6'3", 275 pound glop of orange shit in a crappy tie and goofy hair...no matter where they fall on the political spectrum, they'll know you didn't mean that they physically resemble Trump to you.  But they'll just be absolutely stumped by what the fuck you mean by "I remind him of Trump?"  I tried it a couple of times today and it's a shitton of fun when you can't have alcohol.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Slacks said:

I was mistaken for Lenny Kravitz on a plane last month. 

Maybe you and I look alike. 

No, no. I don't think so. See, the only reason the guy might have thought I was Lenny Kravitz is that (1) he was in town that weekend, (2) I was leaving a hotel in downtown Vienna through a side door (3) wearing full length red pajamas.

(How I came to be there is another story involving me not knowing what the word "notausgang" meant.)

In reality, I'm a better-looking version of Jude Law.

Posted (edited)

So, back to the cases, the Garcia hearings were held on October 12.  DeOliveira waived any conflict and Cannon accepted the waiver and Irving, his lawyer, agreed not to cross-examine former clients with potentially incriminating information.  Fine, mission accomplished, ineffective assistance of counsel appeal quashed.

On Nauta, though, Cannon adjourned the hearing for reasons that aren't clear.  First, it was all under seal, so reporting comes from leakage, which is not always accurate.  But it seems like the government took the position that if Stan Woodward is going to cross-examine his former client Yuscil Taveras while representing Nauta, the conflict is non-waivable and Woodward must be disqualified from representing Nauta.  It seems like that idea has always been "on the table," or just below the surface, but was not specifically raised or briefed.  Cannon treated it like a new issue unbriefed by the parties and sent them home.  She really does seem kind of stupid.

Not a big, hairy deal either way.  Does not appear that Woodward's harebrained idea of excluding Taveras' testimony was on the table at all.

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted (edited)

No serious person would consider the President not to be a federal officer. So the Supreme Court probably won't consider him an officer.

 

Edited by Huckleberry
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

No serious person would consider the President not to be a federal officer. So the Supreme Court probably won't consider him an officer.

 

You would actually be wrong about that.  As outlined above, there's considerable debate about the meaning of the term "officer" as used in the Constitution.

The one agreed/established point is that those who are appointed and confirmed by the Senate are absolutely officers. 

The question first arising in connection with Art. II, s. 2 of the Constitution:

 

"The President shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint, ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for and which shall be established by law. But the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers as they may think proper in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments."

As early as 1878, and probably earlier, the question as to who is an "officer" of the United States arose. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/99/508/  See also https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/124/303/

"Unless a person in the service of the government, therefore, holds his place by virtue of an appointment by the President or of one of the courts of justice or heads of departments authorized by law to make such an appointment, he is not, strictly speaking, an officer of the United States."

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted

What astonishes me, though, is that Congress continues to use definitionally fraught terms like "officers" or the recent "waters of the United States" (Clean Water Act) instead of more plain meaning words and phrases in legislation.

 

Maybe there's some method to that madness, but I don't know what it is.

Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

As outlined above, there's considerable debate about the meaning of the term "officer" as used in the Constitution.

This is one of the silliest debates in the history of human language

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

This is one of the silliest debates in the history of human language

It may be silly, but it's for real.  And it's been for-real for quite some time.

It's always been Calvinball.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

Arguing otherwise is looking for a loophole and not in good faith

I don't think @TwiceHorn is doing that, but I agree. And it's a ridiculous argument in part because the answer lies in the meaning of the words themselves and the nature of how they are used together. It's absurd. The President literally sits first (Prae+sedere="president") at the head of the executive branch, or make-work function (op+facere="office"). Everyone who came up with this stuff was fluent in latin. They chose titles on purpose. They chose roman words with roman meanings - a celebrant in the apostolic tradition is often called "President" because the lead the offices of the church. 

The idea that somehow the can be the presiding make-worker over the office of the president without being an officer himself because of some arcane  phrasiological artifact of construction in contravention of both plain language and clear intent of the framers is yet another sign of a federal bench in crisis.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted

Saw an article somewhere that suggests the NY Trump trial team is basically attempting to bait Engoron into reversible error in the fraud trial.

Might possibly be doing the same with the gag order stuff.

Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I don't think @TwiceHorn is doing that, but I agree. And it's a ridiculous argument in part because the answer lies in the meaning of the words themselves and the nature of how they are used together. It's absurd. The President literally sits first (Prae+sedere="president") at the head of the executive branch, or make-work function (op+facere="office"). The idea that somehow the can be the presiding make-worker over the office of the president without being an officer himself because of some arcane  phrasiological artifact of construction in contravention of both plain language and clear intent of the framers is yet another sign of a federal bench in crisis. 

No I'm not "doing that," I am exposing you to 100+ year old arguments about the meaning of the Constitution and legislation that references it.

How did you ascertain the clear intent of the framers?  You know what you want it to mean, using contemporary, 21st century understanding.

But these documents weren't drafted in the 21st century.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, the framers drafted, but the state legislatures passed/ratified.  Whose intention or understanding then is more important?

And, in case you weren't paying attention, the two Supreme Court decisions I cited, mulling over this problem, were from 1878 and 1888, respectively.  

Is it in crisis?  Or have you just not been paying attention?

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

How did you ascertain the clear intent of the framers?  You know what you want it to mean, using contemporary, 21st century understanding.

But these documents weren't drafted in the 21st century.

If you see my edit I spoke to that:
 

7 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Everyone who came up with this stuff was fluent in latin. They chose titles on purpose. They chose roman words with roman meanings - a celebrant in the apostolic tradition is often called "President" because the lead the offices of the church. 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

No serious person would consider the President not to be a federal officer. So the Supreme Court probably won't consider him an officer.

 

Unfortunately this excludes most constitutional lawyers and law professors. 

edit: I see you already made my point.

Edited by wildcat09
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Posted
1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

If you see my edit I spoke to that:
 

Well, I suppose that's one mode of interpretation of the Constitution.  It doesn't/hasn't gotten much traction over the years.

Another, from which this stems, is how the word is used in the document itself.



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