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UT's next basketball coach - discussion/debate


alphahorn

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I thought you learned how to give handjobs at Jester in '85 ;) 

I hadn't been on the backside of the new practice facility yet (where pic was taken).  Behind you is this high-end cooling plant.  To the right is this badass new hoops facility.  To the left, you can see the continued expansion of the Innovation District (if you can pretend the Drum isn't there).  And then straight ahead is horribly antiquated Social Work, cold war swim center and fucking Jester.  I'm sure they find ways to shuttle the recruits past that shit.  

On Musselman.  Only cursory knowledge, but it seems like college hoops has more coaches (%-wise obviously) that have some NBA experience as well.  Just sorta 'seems' like coaches move between NCAA and Pro more fluidly than in college football/NFL.  Obviously, I'm just thinking about it in light of Musselman (and I think it's a plus for him) with 20 years in the League.  I like that he's "only" 58.  

I know he "dropped" into the upper end of college hoops at Nevada and immediately started kicking ass (including ours in OT in '18).  And he's look awfully good at Arkansas on paper.  I have no idea his style, recruiting, etc.  But some hoops folks I trust on here and in real life say he'd be a great fit.  What's he making about, $4.5?  

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1 hour ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I want to disagree with you, but I remember begging friends to go to Durant home games. 

Well, people also underestimate how fanatic Arkansas fans are when they’re good. Mostly because it’s been so long. They went through a series of abominable hires, really since Nolan Richardson melted down. 

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2 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

It depends on what you value. I never considered myself a fan. But it is true he took UT out of the dark ages of funding the athletic department with the creation of the Longhorn Foundation. Whatever else I despise about his tenure - and there’s plenty - I give him credit for that. 

You'd know a lot more about that than me.  I know finances are important.  I think Texas would end up as a wealthy program no matter who was at the helm as college sports evolved in the 80s-90s-00s-10s-20s.  But maybe not.

I feel like he was too arrogant for the amount of hardware our programs brought in, baseball being the exception.  I don't care how much money we make.  Most of the excess funds seems to make its way to sports I don't give a shit about (women's and olympics).  Does not seem to have helped all that much in the sports I do care about.  I'd like to focus on hardware first and money second.  It seems like hardware would lead to even more money. But when an AD brags more about funding and being the Jones while OU wins 20 thousand conference titles in football, it really pisses me off.

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4 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

You'd know a lot more about that than me.  I know finances are important.  I think Texas would end up as a wealthy program no matter who was at the helm as college sports evolved in the 80s-90s-00s-10s-20s.  But maybe not.

I feel like he was too arrogant for the amount of hardware our programs brought in, baseball being the exception.  I don't care how much money we make.  Most of the excess funds seems to make its way to sports I don't give a shit about (women's and olympics).  Does not seem to have helped all that much in the sports I do care about.  I'd like to focus on hardware first and money second.  It seems like hardware would lead to even more money. But when an AD brags more about funding and being the Jones while OU wins 20 thousand conference titles in football, it really pisses me off.

Well, that gets into what my criticisms are of him, which are legion. I was simply pointing out the one thing he did which I can compliment. 

And we can talk about the inevitability of all kinds of events in history in hindsight, but someone still had to go out and do them the one time they get credit for it. UT athletic department funding was in the dark ages for a variety of reasons. He brought it into the modern era and even started stretching the boundaries of what a college could do in terms of commercializing the athletic department to raise even more funds. And if you're reading into that a veiled critique, you'd be correct.

By biggest issue with Deloss Dodd's athletic department can be boiled down to a single phrase I used to use all the time 20 years ago. Our athletic department wants the football team to win some games so they can go out and raise more money, rather than the other way around. And that was most definitely a problem from my perspective. 

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On 1/7/2023 at 8:12 PM, shadow_operative said:

too late to edit, but i'll add this: 

i still had respect for DD and everything he did for the program. bill little on the other hand? i'll put it to you this way: Deloss was Alliser Thorne; Bill Little was Janos Slynt. just a fat, sniveling, gremlin troll of a sycophant. fuck him. 

What a fucking idiot you are. You're nothing but a punk t shirt fan while Bill was a great longhorn.

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On 1/7/2023 at 12:37 PM, jimmyjazz said:

Thanks for the history lesson.  Not every coach weighs history the way you apparently do.  Pulling a Cronin from UCLA is a lot different than pulling a Self from Kansas.  Most likely Cronin wouldn't be interested, but it's not as if there are no factors in favor of UT over UCLA.

There is really no world in which Cronin would pick the Longhorn job over the UCLA job.

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8 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Well, that gets into what my criticisms are of him, which are legion. I was simply pointing out the one thing he did which I can compliment. 

And we can talk about the inevitability of all kinds of events in history in hindsight, but someone still had to go out and do them the one time they get credit for it. UT athletic department funding was in the dark ages for a variety of reasons. He brought it into the modern era and even started stretching the boundaries of what a college could do in terms of commercializing the athletic department to raise even more funds. And if you're reading into that a veiled critique, you'd be correct.

By biggest issue with Deloss Dodd's athletic department can be boiled down to a single phrase I used to use all the time 20 years ago. Our athletic department wants the football team to win some games so they can go out and raise more money, rather than the other way around. And that was most definitely a problem from my perspective. 

I think your last paragraph is spot on and articulates my frustration with the Deloss era AD. Lots of missed opportunities.  And so, so much waste and administrative bloat.

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2 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

I think your last paragraph is spot on and articulates my frustration with the Deloss era AD. Lots of missed opportunities.  And so, so much waste and administrative bloat.

Most likely forget that DeLoss first major moves at UT were to fire Abe Lemons and hire Boob Weltlich.  I haven't forgotten, and I still have contempt for him.

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10 hours ago, realgreggym said:

What a fucking idiot you are. You're nothing but a punk t shirt fan while Bill was a great longhorn.

I didn’t have stanning for Bill Little on my bingo card. 
You continue to prove that you’re a dickhead and apparently are a fan of other dickheads

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I mean he’s only lost in the first round of the tourney once since coming to UK and has only won fewer than 25 games twice.

I’ve said several times that he wouldn’t be my choice but come on. Everyone needs to get a grip about Cal. There simply are very very very few coaches who can show that much consistent success at big programs. Yea he out talents people but if we win 25 games a year, with a bunch of talent every year, then that puts us in a pretty good position to have some chances in the tourney.

Simply put, there is a zero percent chance that Cal would be a flop here. He may not take us to national titles (but he might), but he would certainly have us as a consistent top 10ish team. If we hire Muss over Cal than that’s great, if we hire some up and comer over Cal that is fucking moronic.

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Saw something upthread about Drew.  I'm sure it's just one of these media clowns spewing names, but hell no. 

Never been impressed with his coaching and there's a reason Barnes hated his slimy ass...he's a pos hack m'fer from Baylor.  No f'in thanks.

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4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I don't really want the guy Kentucky is tired of.  But that's just me. 

I'm not sure I do either but this would be the argument. Since 2017 he's gone: EE, SS, EE, won the SEC (tourney cancelled), missed tourney (covid asterisk), 2nd in SEC, loss in first round as a 2 seed, and then whatever this season is.

So, more good than bad, but it doesn't appear to be trending all that well. 

Again, you'd have to bank on either:

- he needs a change of scenery 

or

- he's just had a couple off years and a "shit happens" loss in the tourney. 

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10 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I mean he’s only lost in the first round of the tourney once since coming to UK and has only won fewer than 25 games twice.

I’ve said several times that he wouldn’t be my choice but come on. Everyone needs to get a grip about Cal. There simply are very very very few coaches who can show that much consistent success at big programs. Yea he out talents people but if we win 25 games a year, with a bunch of talent every year, then that puts us in a pretty good position to have some chances in the tourney.

Simply put, there is a zero percent chance that Cal would be a flop here. He may not take us to national titles (but he might), but he would certainly have us as a consistent top 10ish team. If we hire Muss over Cal than that’s great, if we hire some up and comer over Cal that is fucking moronic.

Am I just dreaming that I read somewhere after Beard was hired that Texas had put out some feelers to him and that the price tag was Jimbo Fisher high?

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7 minutes ago, CTC2 said:

Am I just dreaming that I read somewhere after Beard was hired that Texas had put out some feelers to him and that the price tag was Jimbo Fisher high?

i've heard that. Cal was interested in the Texas job, but only for an obscene raise. still, if that rumor is true then he's already expressed interest in the job, and the job is now open. things could get interesting.

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5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I don't love Scott Drew but c'mon man. You weren't impressed when they whipped everyone's ass to win a national title?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I really wasn't impressed with him as a coach, even though that was an absolutely great/loaded team.

That said, I admit that my utter hate for Baylor is probably clouding my judgment.  Fuck Baylor.

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2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

He makes 10m a year at Kentucky so probably 

Not quite. The buyout would be a mess though unless UK was willing to negotiate (which they might be at this point).

The 10-year deal officially signed later that spring was worth a total of $86 million, with compensation of $8 million per year for the next two seasons, $8.5 million from the 2021-22 through the 2024-25 seasons, and $9 million for the final four seasons of the agreement, which extended through the 2028-29 campaign.

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Here's how I see Cal:

Pro:  his slimy cheating nature is not such an issue in the age of NIL

Con:  he's a slimy cheat, he'll just find other things to cheat about

 

Con:  he's 63 and seemingly burnt out

 

It would be cool to see teams loaded with 1st round talent, though.

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52 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I mean he’s only lost in the first round of the tourney once since coming to UK and has only won fewer than 25 games twice.

I’ve said several times that he wouldn’t be my choice but come on. Everyone needs to get a grip about Cal. There simply are very very very few coaches who can show that much consistent success at big programs. Yea he out talents people but if we win 25 games a year, with a bunch of talent every year, then that puts us in a pretty good position to have some chances in the tourney.

Simply put, there is a zero percent chance that Cal would be a flop here. He may not take us to national titles (but he might), but he would certainly have us as a consistent top 10ish team. If we hire Muss over Cal than that’s great, if we hire some up and comer over Cal that is fucking moronic.

With all of talent, if I remember correctly, he didn't even make the tournament one year and maybe you don't remember that those 2 championships at UMass and Memphis were vacated and at UK, Calipari is on the same level as Guy Lewis and John Thompson. And I have no problems if CDC signs a younger up in coming coach. 

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8 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

With all of talent, if I remember correctly, he didn't even make the tournament one year and maybe you don't remember that those 2 championships at UMass and Memphis were vacated and at UK, Calipari is on the same level as Guy Lewis and John Thompson. And I have no problems if CDC signs a younger up in coming coach. 

I honestly prefer it. I don't want a mid-60s coach who looks burnt out and runs a shitty offense at one of the most resource, talent and history-rich basketball schools in the country. 

You can say "maybe he needs a change of scenery" but what if he doesn't and we just blow tens of millions on Cal with no results?  Texas has so much momentum right now - this hire has to be right, and i prefer someone young enough to build a monster of a program for 15-20 years. 

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Not quite. The buyout would be a mess though unless UK was willing to negotiate (which they might be at this point).

The 10-year deal officially signed later that spring was worth a total of $86 million, with compensation of $8 million per year for the next two seasons, $8.5 million from the 2021-22 through the 2024-25 seasons, and $9 million for the final four seasons of the agreement, which extended through the 2028-29 campaign.

I am absolutely not advocating for Cal, but doesn't he have a Jimbo contract where he's owed everything if he's fired but doesn't have a buyout if he leaves? I remember that being part of the discussion during the last search

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I have no connections whatsoever. With that said, I’m calling bullshit on Texas contacting Cal. That just doesn’t sound like CDC. Not only that, there are no leaks from Bellmont anymore since CDC arrived. 

I would not be surprised if Cal’s people reached out to Texas, but at this stage, Texas isn’t reaching out to anyone in January. I would think January/February is where CDC is making his list.

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1 hour ago, Js1 said:

this hire has to be right, and i prefer someone young enough to build a monster of a program for 15-20 years. 

yeah me too, but those guys aren't out there and available. that's why the beard hire was such a coup. he was the one guy who fit that mold, and we got him. now we have to replace him. i'd much rather take Cal for five years while we search for the next chris beard than to roll the dice on somebody unproven. the last time we did that we got Shaka. assume Oats, Lloyd, Musselman, and Cronin stay put. who else is out there, available, and fit to coach Texas that you'd take over Coach Cal? 

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and again, i don't want Coach Cal, but the way people in this thread are talking about him you'd think he was shaka smart. do we want Cal? no. is he a better hire than probably 95% of available candidates? yes. 

let's get this debate clear right now: this is not a case of "people who don't want to hire Coach Cal" debating people who do want him hired; this is a case of "people who'd rather hire mizzou'a coach or UNT's coach than Coach Cal", debating those of us who think that's absolutely crazy. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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Yes, if Cal is available (and the only one available) you have to say yes.

I do not think we’d pay him what Kentucky is paying him. It makes sense his people would reach out to CDC (not the other way around, not right now) and I’m betting he’s saying he’d come here for definitely less than what he’s making at UK

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8 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

yeah me too, but those guys aren't out there and available. that's why the beard hire was such a coup. he was the one guy who fit that mold, and we got him. now we have to replace him. i'd much rather take Cal for five years while we search for the next chris beard than to roll the dice on somebody unproven. the last time we did that we got Shaka. assume Oats, Lloyd, Musselman, and Cronin stay put. who else is out there, available, and fit to coach Texas that you'd take over Coach Cal? 

 

2 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Yes, if Cal is available (and the only one available) you have to say yes.

I do not think we’d pay him what Kentucky is paying him. It makes sense his people would reach out to CDC (not the other way around, not right now) and I’m betting he’s saying he’d come here for definitely less than what he’s making at UK

I'm curious how much it would take to get him. I can't see us matching what he gets paid at Kentucky, but he'd definitely have to make more than Sark. I guess a lot of it depends on how bad he wants out there, and how high his view is of the Texas Basketball program. 

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2 hours ago, Js1 said:

Texas has so much momentum right now - this hire has to be right, and i prefer someone young enough to build a monster of a program for 15-20 years. 

how many top say 20 coaches have been at the same job for the last 10-15 years?

i'm being lazy and pulling up wiki's list of current D1 basketball coaches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_coaches while it isn't perfect i feel confident with it with p5 coaches at least.

i'm only seeing

  • 9/363 coaches who have been at their job 20+ years - 2.5%
  • 26/363 coaches who have been there 15+ years - 7.2%
  • 60/363 coaches who have been at their job 10+ years - 16.5%
  • 140/363 coaches who have been at their job 5+ years - 36.8%

all of this = 223/363 coaches who have been at their job less than 10 years (61.4%)

i totally agree with you but what i'm asking making a 15+ year hire is unreasonable considering there has been literally one of those in the history of the program (Barnes) and only one other that was here 10 years (Penders)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, cafe society said:

Calipari's buyout this hear if UK fires him is $52m and it decreases by $6m/year.  I assume he has an equally substantial buyout if he wants to leave, although at this juncture I think Kentucky might pay him plenty just to persuade him to leave Lexington. 

Not sure that's accurate. IIRC, Calipari can leave for little to nothing. He had a ton of leverage last time they negotiated. 

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