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Posted
4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

My bigger-picture fear -- and current conclusion -- is that we have to put empathy aside for the moment.  First, we have to fight back and defeat the monster that is hate and cruelty.  And that....requires dirtying our hands.  I sure as shit never wanted it to be this way, but here we are.

This is definitely something I"m struggling with internally. Many people I deeply love have fallen into this anti-empathy/right wing trap. And I"m deeply disappointed and angry with them. It makes me sick that people who would do anything for me (and vice versa) can be so dismissively cruel regarding others. I really believe sincerity is a dying currency, and we have to find a way to revive it. 

 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, troph said:

You don’t have to put aside empathy for those who are suffering to fight back, you fight back because of the empathy toward those who are suffering. 

 

Someone needs to needlepoint that onto a throw pillow.

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Posted (edited)

Seems to me we've got evidence now that the solution to all of this board's problems is simply to ban Ana.

ETA: the last few years online and just generally being alive have really shown that maybe the Athenians had it right with the whole exile thing. Some people just can't live in a society.

Edited by wildcat09
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Posted
1 minute ago, South Austin said:

Completely agree, and weighing in with my own experience that provides some empathy for MC Fresh Breath.

I have a gay daughter, who came out to me the summer before 8th grade.  It was really no surprise.  I kinda suspected it, and I can't exactly explain why.  She had never seemed into boys, but at that age many girls aren't yet, and she never outwardly expressed an attraction to girls.  Still, I just had this intuition as a parent, and when she told me she was gay, it just felt right and true for her, and I never questioned it.  I even teared up because I was so happy for her and so proud that she was able to tell me (and not to brag, but she told me before her mom).

But, about 8 months or so before her coming out, I was having a conversation with my then-wife in which we both agreed that our daughter was probably gay.  It was just parental wonder, and we certainly weren't going to approach her about it.  But then she asked me, "What if she's transgender, and comes to us saying she's a boy?"  For two bleeding heart libs, at the time that seemed like a huge emotional leap for us, and neither of us had any comfort level with that possibility. We actually have a trans friend who had come out a couple years earlier in her mid 40s, but that was our only personal experience with the trans community, and we were still adjusting to that.  

So, I totally understand the parental anxiety that comes with a child seemingly changing their own identity, of losing the idea of the daughter or son that you birthed, raised, and knew for so long.  And I also appreciate troph's recognition of that, while at the same time her perspective that the years of pain felt by her and those around her can be far greater than the parents' sense of loss.

I wish there was more love and understanding to go around these days.

I think we all know we did a lot of dumb shit when we were younger. We embraced fads that we didn't really like, we tried to hang out with "cool kids" whom we didn't really like, we pretended to like the things our friends liked and pretended to dislike the things they disliked, etc. A huge part of childhood and adolescence is basically "trying on" different experiences to see what you like. And I'm sure now with the growing acceptance of trans people that some kids are "trying on" being trans (and other non-heteronormative experiences) for a little while but aren't really gender dysphoric.

It's certainly fine and right for a parent to worry that their kid is going to make a life-altering decision that they'll later regret and can't take back. But the proper way to address those concerns is with appropriate parental, medical, and therapeutic input to ensure that people who do medically transition really want to do so.  Not fake science justifying state bans on a treatment that has a tiny regret rate and that when refused leads to countless mental health problems for actually trans kids and teens, many of whom are driven to suicide. And while I certainly empathize with the parents who seriously grapple with these issues, I have zero empathy for those who treat their own children like property and think its their right to force their child to be whoever and whatever they want them to be. If those parents would be less selfish and take their own parental responsibilities more seriously, this wouldn't be a political issue at all. 

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Posted
46 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Don't assign to much goodness to me Brisket.  I was an asshole to many of you in the Israel thread.   And I do overall still feel the way I felt back then about that subject.  But I could should have approached it different or even better maybe left it alone.  I apologize for being a dick (to you and others)  even if I think my overall opinions on the matter  are the ones I still hold.  Because an emphatic Yes to the thoughtful listening and compassion that troph and Hank are discussing.

That's where politics for me just doesn't jibe currently with humanity.  It gets in the way of our compassion and  our intellect most days.  Not to turn this into a me thread but I am an atheist who is finding some good knowledge in the writings of the Vietnamese Buddhist monk Thích Nhất Hạnh.  The concept being compassionate listening.  And also of course letting go of the past and the future and only trying to live in the very present.  Boy that's hard, but boy do I want to learn to do that.  And by being that person then I focus on loving the child who is in front of me right now.  Not the child I loved and read stories to yesterday.  Not the girl who loved it when I randomly did Father daughter days and took off work.  And if the child in front of me right now identifies as something other than what I knew, then I will love that person.  At the same time, I want to protect that person as best I can from permanent harm that could be made in the heat of the moment.  I am nowhere near the teenager I was.  Thank fuck social media didn't exist back then to document my every rash moment.  And thank goodness none of my mistakes were permanent. Because again I feel the teenage years are perfect for exploring the fundamental question of "who am I?"

But Thích Nhất Hạnh was also political.  If I could learn how to engage politically while still being compassionate, it would be a brand new me.  Because I tend to just angry and depressed instead and randomly lash out. 

But this particular subject, as we've stated a lot today, shouldn't be political at all.  And it is a family issue.  Compassion is never wrong in those matters.

Are you growing?  Are you trying?  Are you failing anyway, but then trying again?  Seems like all of those get a "yes," and honestly, that's all any of us can hope for - in ourselves or others.  If we're being honest with ourselves, when we look into the mirror, we see both a good and a terrible person.  I do, at least.

Your current situation is one of those challenging curveballs that life, other people, and society tend to throw our way.  I've shared some of those with this group, some of them I've kept to myself (maybe I'll share them someday, maybe not, maybe some of them, I'm still in the midst of sorting out).  But know that everyone has to deal with one or more of those over the course of their lives.  I do think that so much of it comes back to empathy.  That doesn't need to be a namby-pamby word, or a command to enable bad/harmful/self-harmful behavior, and figuring out where that line is can be a challenge.  But making the effort to look at things through someone else's eyes pays huge dividends.  That's true whether you are trying to be helpful and kind, or whether they are your adversary you're trying to defeat.  Then the next level - at least in social and political things - is to realize that in the long run, "defeating" those you disagree with isn't a great outcome.  It may have to be done in the moment, but ultimately.....

we're all in this together, and nobody makes it out alive.  Or, as a pretty fair guitarist once said,

You see, we are here, as far as I can tell, to help each other – our brothers, our sisters, our friends, our enemies. That’s to help each other, not hurt each other.

Stevie-Ray-Vaughn-Credit-Kirk-West-Getty

You're trying.  You love your kid.  Your wife loves your kid.  You and your wife love each other.  Keep walking.  Keep learning and reasoning.  Do the best you can.  And keep doing the best you can.  Help other people along the way with what you've learned, good and bad.  Try to be better every day.  Know that most days, you won't get it right.  And try again the next day.  That's all any of us can do.  And that's all any of us should expect.

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Posted
13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I've shared some of those with this group, some of them I've kept to myself (maybe I'll share them someday, maybe not, maybe some of them, I'm still in the midst of sorting out).

Are you referring to you dressing up like Elmer Fudd and your wife dressing like Bugs Bunny when you have marital relations . . . . and was I not supposed to share that with the group?

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Posted
16 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Are you referring to you dressing up like Elmer Fudd and your wife dressing like Bugs Bunny when you have marital relations . . . . and was I not supposed to share that with the group?

I said "challenges and curveballs," not "awesome shit I do that I would totally brag about here."  And calling her a wascally wabbit gets her all turned on, I'm not gonna question it, I'm just here to play the hits.

Posted (edited)

 

 

29 minutes ago, pacman said:

I think we can count on Crockett to be first in line to neuter Trump every chance she gets.

 

I would wife her in a NY minute.

Edited by troph
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Posted
32 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I said "challenges and curveballs," not "awesome shit I do that I would totally brag about here."  And calling her a wascally wabbit gets her all turned on, I'm not gonna question it, I'm just here to play the hits.

my ex and i used to joke about bowling shoes, she said you wanna get kinky let's go, but no bowling shoes in bed, mkay? I was like... yes ma'am... let's go!

Posted

It'll be interesting to see how the new Pope treats the LGBTQ community. One of the (many) reasons I left Catholicism was the condescending "love the sinner, not the sin" approach that even a decent guy like Francis took. I don't consider my lifestyle a sin, thank you very much. 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Orale said:

It'll be interesting to see how the new Pope treats the LGBTQ community. One of the (many) reasons I left Catholicism was the condescending "love the sinner, not the sin" approach that even a decent guy like Francis took. I don't consider my lifestyle a sin, thank you very much. 

I think that was probably my favorite Johnny Sackism. "We have multiple gay people at our Church, and we treat them with same respect and decency as everyone else. We just happen to believe that their existence is a sin. No biggie."

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Posted
3 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I think that was probably my favorite Johnny Sackism. "We have multiple gay people at our Church, and we treat them with same respect and decency as everyone else. We just happen to believe that their existence is a sin. No biggie."

I wonder if he knows that being a church deacon is gay asf

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Posted
1 hour ago, safe sex said:

Bisexual icon Mrs. Whiggins??

 I admire this icon. Every one of us has one. The more we use it, literally and figuratively, to love ourselves and each other, the stronger it gets:

Cardiology Human Heart Icon, Cartoon Style Stock Vector - Illustration ...

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Posted
56 minutes ago, Orale said:

It'll be interesting to see how the new Pope treats the LGBTQ community. 

Don't get your hopes up.  I was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, and left in my late 20s, not only because of its position on homosexuality, but its subjugation of women (e.g., refusing to ordinate female priests, opposition to reproductive rights).

I'm skeptical that a dogmatic religious machine like the Catholic church will change its mind on those issues in my lifetime.

Posted
5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Don't get your hopes up.  I was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, and left in my late 20s, not only because of its position on homosexuality, but its subjugation of women (e.g., refusing to ordinate female priests, opposition to reproductive rights).

I'm skeptical that a dogmatic religious machine like the Catholic church will change its mind on those issues in my lifetime.

maybe so, but they're also at an inflection point as membership continues to decline. adapt or die finally pertains to them too. whether they choose to accept that inevitability is a different story altogether

Posted
1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

maybe so, but they're also at an inflection point as membership continues to decline. adapt or die finally pertains to them too. whether they choose to accept that inevitability is a different story altogether

The growing Catholic church in Africa would like a word.  Seriously, it's easy to look at the Catholic church in Europe and the US and say that it's declining, and the church being retrograde is part of that.  But it misses a LOT of the picture of the Church as a whole.

Posted
On 5/7/2025 at 4:17 PM, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

All of the trans adults I know (gen x basically) didn't "come out" as kids because there was no widespread knowledge of what being trans was, nor was there internet or any other realistic way for a kid then to figure out their situation/why they felt the way they did (and any attempt would have been/was met with 100% condemnation). I sure wish they had been able to do so because it would have headed off a whole myriad of life problems. But we can't have that... they must suffer for being different, I guess. And who gives a shit about people's lived experience, anyway. We must keep talking about "them" and regulating "them", instead of listening to "them" 

Well that and there was a good chance their classmates (or dad) would beat the shit out of them

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Posted
2 hours ago, immamac said:

holy shit this thread got good as soon as someone got banned. 

Was just about to post that I have avoided this thread for months because of him. Even though I have him on ignore seemingly every other post had him quoted and a response. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Was just about to post that I have avoided this thread for months because of him. Even though I have him on ignore seemingly every other post had him quoted and a response. 

People who quote him need to be put in time out too. Myself included on the rare instance I’ve done so.

Posted
2 hours ago, Foosters said:

Gonna miss the guy. His ignored posts were like paragraph breaks between every single post. Easier reading 

He’ll be back in 6 days from a short vacation.

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Posted
16 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Yeah, but the ECHO CHAMBER of love, compassion, empathy, and understanding!!! 

 

....and also, rational discussion of the issue and actually understanding and discussing (wait for it).....both sides.

It's a challenging issue, with evolving information and knowledge.  Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and it's only in the past couple of decades (at most) become relatively safe to discuss and raise in public and medically.  So, it remains an emerging issue in some respects.  It's also an issue that affects -- not many, but some -- families.  It's hard on every level.  So, the goal should be to pave the way for families and medical professionals to make the best objective decisions they can, without political pressure from either extreme.  Which allows time and circumstance to develop even better information and data, so that tomorrow's decisionmakers will be even better-equipped than today's.

Kinda funny how we can actually legit have a "both sides" conversation (see the very good conversation between MC and Troph), revealing that when a "both sides" approach is working, it's actually just "one side" -- that side being "make space and provide guardrails for people to make the best decisions they can."  Oh, the irony.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Kinda funny how we can actually legit have a "both sides" conversation (see the very good conversation between MC and Troph),

Yeah.  Completely opposite sides those two are on.  The only dissenting voice on the last 10 pages of the thread took a weeks vacation.  Celebration of Texaggy style moderation not on my bingo card today.  

Wonder how far off we are from imma challenging posters to fist fights in the parking lot of surly HQ.   

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yeah.  Completely opposite sides those two are on.  The only dissenting voice on the last 10 pages of the thread took a weeks vacation.  Celebration of Texaggy style moderation not on my bingo card today.  

Wonder how far off we are from imma challenging posters to fist fights in the parking lot of surly HQ.   

I don’t think Ana is gonna fuck you. I guess if you’re upset about the moderation you can not post here anymore.

Although I’ve long suspected you’re his sock account anyway.

Edited by hobbes2702
Posted
13 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yeah.  Completely opposite sides those two are on.  The only dissenting voice on the last 10 pages of the thread took a weeks vacation.  Celebration of Texaggy style moderation not on my bingo card today.  

Wonder how far off we are from imma challenging posters to fist fights in the parking lot of surly HQ.   

See, that's the funny thing - they're not even on the opposite side of the side that Ana CLAIMS to be on (look to the science!)  Both of them very much support evidence-based reasoning to reach the right outcome.  Neither one of them is claiming that it's a "settled issue!" like Ana seems to be, though.  There is data, evidence, and information that can both support hormonal treatment of gender dysphoria, and to find that it is harmful and/or should be delayed for minors, as well as myriad other nuanced conclusions.  I think most people above would take the position that someone claiming "it's settled!  Any kid who claims to be trans should be given easy access to hormones!" would be an extremist, and is taking a shitty, non-nuanced position.  Those same people also think that "it's settled!  Ban all hormone treatments for anyone with gender dysphoria!/and certainly don't allow them for any minors, even with parental consent and pursuant to medical advice!" is an extremist, non-nuanced position.

It's a challenging issue for anyone to deal with.  No matter what it is, the goal of society should be to make sure the path is cleared to finding the best ways to treat/handle it.  As we learn more about it and the alternatives, the information and options will change, and EVERYONE needs to be willing to go with what we're learning and new info that develops.  If, for example, it turns out that we get gold-standard research that says that hormone treatment is worse than leaving it medically untreated 99% of the time, then I think most folks here would be comfortable saying "well then, the medical profession shouldn't be recommending that course of treatment."  And vice-versa.

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Posted
21 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yeah.  Completely opposite sides those two are on.  The only dissenting voice on the last 10 pages of the thread took a weeks vacation.  Celebration of Texaggy style moderation not on my bingo card today.  

Wonder how far off we are from imma challenging posters to fist fights in the parking lot of surly HQ.   

Are you always a little bitch?

Posted

The public would essentially cease hearing from the "extreme" of trans rights advocates if the right would stop trying to persecute and exploit trans people. 

15 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Are you always a little bitch?

First time?

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