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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

He’s a piece of fucking shit. 

I doubt he’s toast…But here is hoping. 

Not completely the same but Israeli PM Golda Meir was defeated in election after the Yom Kippur War even after winning it because of not being prepared for it beforehand. 

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19 minutes ago, Viper said:

Not completely the same but Israeli PM Golda Meir was defeated in election after the Yom Kippur War even after winning it because of not being prepared for it beforehand. 

I hope you’re right. But times have changed and the guy is already in office while under charges of corruption and has eliminated the checks on his power, and their legislature is far right. The guy obviously isn’t interested in leaving power until Israel is shaped into the image he wants. 
 

Richard Nixon once stepped down too, and his own party told him to resign. This isn’t the 70’s anymore. 

Edited by SydneyCarton
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1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

I hope you’re right. But times have changed and the guy is already in office while under charges of corruption and has eliminated the checks on his power, and their legislature is far right. The guy obviously isn’t interested in leaving power until Israel is shaped into the image he wants. 
 

Richard Nixon once stepped down too, and his own party told him to resign. This isn’t the 70’s anymore. 

Yeah, Golda Meir was a different person than Bibi, she was not committed to reinventing the state along near-authoritarian lines. 

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27 minutes ago, Viper said:

Not completely the same but Israeli PM Golda Meir was defeated in election after the Yom Kippur War even after winning it because of not being prepared for it beforehand. 

I mean Winston Churchill went down after WWII

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Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

Edited by statsman
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21 minutes ago, statsman said:

No CR, but Netanyahu’s government sells itself as being best on security. I imagine he is expected to lead through this, make all the needed (ugly) decisions, and then call for new elections. 

Oh, you expect a guy who was wildly unpopular already, under charges of corruption while previously in office, and who has been reshaping the government along authoritarian lines, who failed at the security his party touts, so suddenly do the moral thing and then step down for new, fair elections, eh?
 

well, I’m jealous of your optimism, I guess.   

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8 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Oh, you expect a guy who was wildly unpopular already, under charges of corruption while previously in office, and who has been reshaping the government along authoritarian lines, who failed at the security his party touts, so suddenly do the moral thing and then step down for new, fair elections, eh?
 

well, I’m jealous of your optimism, I guess.   

In a parliamentary system, can’t the parliament force new elections? In times like this, the fringes of the majority coalition can be pressured to vote for a change, bringing a majority to call for a new election. Is that mistaken?

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1 minute ago, statsman said:

In a parliamentary system, can’t the parliament force new elections? In times like this, the fringes of the majority coalition can be pressured to vote for a change, bringing a majority to call for a new election. Is that mistaken?

I don’t think you’re mistaken. In my, admittedly, not robust understanding of where things sit now in Israel, I think it’s unlikely bibi’s majority coalition of his allies, who have been cheering his dismantling of their judicial system’s authority to enforce constitutional rights, is going to call for a new election.Hope I’m wrong, I’m no expert. Guess we’ll see whenever this mess is “done” enough for Israel to focus inward again. 

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I had never read the Hamas charter statements, but after hearing about that Dukhan's death I looked: 

Goals of the HAMAS:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

On the destruction of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

The call to jihad:

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic incitement:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

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54 minutes ago, statsman said:

Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

Gazas parliament is nominally 1/3rd Fatah, which is supposed to be tame and have been de-sanctioned by the west.  If (a gigantic big if) that represents the will of the people, then 1/3rd of the people are ethically innocent.  Of course, the big if is that the last election was almost 2 decades ago, and the last one they were supposed to have was cancelled. 

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8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Gazas parliament is nominally 1/3rd Fatah, which is supposed to be tame and have been de-sanctioned by the west.  If (a gigantic big if) that represents the will of the people, then 1/3rd of the people are ethically innocent.  Of course, the big if is that the last election was almost 2 decades ago, and the last one they were supposed to have was cancelled. 

Fair, but I’m sticking with “Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza”

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6 minutes ago, statsman said:

Fair, but I’m sticking with “Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza”

i think hamas having de facto complete control is a safe assumption.  i was just pointing out the apparent party representation.  no idea of the real internal dynamics

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14 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

That the Jewish people outlasted multiple other powers that have conquered/attacked Israel in the past . . . and maybe Greeks and Romans fit the meter better than Ottomans and Babylonians.  

Edited by Ollie Slatt
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11 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

The book Rise and Shoot First addressed this. There is talk that Israel went our way for intelligence gathering. Instead of having a contact in the room the relied on tech. Sometimes the best sources are those no one anticipates. The dude with the food stand next door to HQ. 

Which makes me think this is a clear case of counter intelligence.  Hamas has/had people on the inside of Israel's intelligence structure.

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29 minutes ago, Bolero88 said:

The fuck does "the Greeks aren't here. The Romans aren't here," mean?

16 minutes ago, Ollie Slatt said:

That the Jewish people outlasted multiple other powers that have conquered/attacked Israel in the past . . . and maybe Greeks and Romans fit the meter better than Ottomans and Babylonians.  

The rest of the tweet:  "The Greeks aren’t here. The Romans aren’t here. The Nazis aren’t here. We are here and Hamas will soon be no more!"

Basically, the Jewish people will outlast anybody who wants to destroy them.

 

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1 hour ago, BlueGreySky said:

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

 

That's funny in a morbid kind of way. They say they want to kill all Jews and then they call Jews "warmongering".

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2 hours ago, statsman said:

Facts and suppositions:

There are no Gaza Kings or Ghandis. Any such would be killed by Hamas. 
 
Hamas has been in charge a long time. All young adults have grown up on an education of anti-semitism. There are no other curriculums. 
 
I have sympathy for the common Gazan; they never had a chance, were never allowed a glimpse of another way. 
 
I still welcome harsh punishment for the terrorist criminals (I’m the kind of guy that cheers when a 95 year old Nazi criminal is discovered and brought to judgment). 
 
Even still- this will be a tough group to reform, to re-educate (I hate that term, because of its authoritarian legacy), to liberalize. 
 
I give credit to Israel for pointedly saying they were at war with Hamas, and not Gaza, even though Hamas is the single party in complete control of Gaza. 
 
Warring on Hamas will be really ugly. It will have two stages- the first, while everyone determines what to do about the hostages (several are Americans). The second, after. The first part could take a long time, leading to global memory forgetting the massacres and denouncing Israel during the second part. I’m sure Israel understands that. 
 
Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

This is exactly what will happen and we have some pedantic Hamas simps on this board with raging antisemitism that will make sure they are here to post all relevant information.

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31 minutes ago, NoName said:

that's a hell of a back to back tweet combo

image.thumb.png.5ae6316a86e0197edaf998ba971f499a.png

I'm not a fan of "innocent" people dying but it's important to remember that the large majority of Palestinians are a-okay with killing Jews and harboring terrorists. 

Like someone said upthread, I think it's unfortunate that children are born into this conflict, and a lot of their attitudes are a product of their upbringing, but there's levels of innocence and I think it's difficult for Israel to tiptoe around it. The line has to be drawn somewhere and civilians right under that line that don't "deserve" to die will be caught in the crossfire. 

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2 hours ago, statsman said:

Surely, Israel has done contingency planning for what to do with Gaza after a (completely foreseeable) collapse of Hamas?

I think the plan is to raze it and make it completely uninhabitable for Gazans, kick them out and make it part of Israel. Which would align with the stated goal of many of their far right leaders. 

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Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

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2 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

The hospital in the tweet that @NoName posted is in Israel. 

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3 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

 

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1 minute ago, SurlyGator said:

Given Hamas' history of hiding military/terrorist activities in civilian structures (homes, schools, mosques, etc.), it's easy to see that hospital being one of them.  Hopefully Israel can produce some sort of documentation attesting to that, otherwise that strike will not age well.

That documentation is already out there about them doing this.  It is known. Even from neutral sources.  I swear I read something on it in this thread.

Found it - Ah Shifa Hospital on Wikipedia

I know not everyone likes wiki, but look at the references for primary sources.  There are 23 citations just on this short half-page about the hospital.  And surely it's not the only mosque, school, or hospital being used as cover for Hamas.

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yeah, it's about to start popping off

Text: The Israeli Ministry of Health has announced that Patients of Hospitals in the North have begun to be Transferred to Medical Facilities in the Center of the Country in order to allow Assessments and Readiness of Hospital along the Northern Front for the Future Security Developments.

edit: globally as well...

 

Edited by NoName
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