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Ukraine Officially Asks for Iron Dome, Other Defense Systems; Israel Says No

Defense Minister Gantz says Israel won't arm Ukraine but will offer a warning system against aerial threats and continue to provide medical and humanitarian aid, as Ukrainian FM says 'it is time for Israel to openly side with Ukraine' against Iran's destructive action

Oct 19, 2022 11:53 am IDT
 
Israel's Defense Minister Benny Gantz said on Wednesday that Israel has no intention of providing Ukraine with weapons to help it in its war with Russia. Gantz did, however, add that Israel has offered Kiev help in developing a smart warning system against aerial threats. Gantz's comments on the heels of Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba's statement that his country will officially ask Israel for air defense systems.
 

Speaking in a meeting with EU ambassadors to Israel, Gantz said that "Israel is maintaining a policy of supporting Ukraine through humanitarian support and delivery of life-saving and defensive equipment." According to Gantz, "Israel will not transfer weapon systems to Ukraine for a variety of operational considerations.

As part of aiding Ukraine, Gantz continued, Israel asked Ukraine to send "data that would allow us to help construct and deliver a smart warning system like Israel gas against aerial and other threats."

 

On Tuesday, the Ukrainian Foreign Minister officially requested air defense systems from the Israeli Foreign Ministry. These systems include Iron Beam, Iron Dome, Barak-8, Patriot, David's Sling and the Arrow anti-ballistic missile.

 

Additionally, Kuleba requested that Israel train Ukrainian forces in using these systems. The request also stated that Russian use of Iranian drones and missiles in Ukraine "will make the Iranian systems better, which in turn will help the Iranians to be able to build an offensive weapon that would threaten Israel and the Middle East."

 
 

Gantz spoke about Iranian support of the Russian army in Ukraine, saying that Israel "is following the Iranian involvement in the war, and we can clearly see that they are providing Russia with offensive capabilities, including drones. Iran might also agree to provide more advanced weaponry in the future. There is no doubt that Iran will lie about their ability to develop a nuclear weapon just like they have in the past. Therefore, we must raise the level of intelligence and operational cooperation between countries."

 
 

Gantz added that Israel will "continue to follow the developments of the war in Ukraine, and their consequences on the region. We have not and will not allow our enemies to receive advanced weaponry, and we will continue to do this in a decisive manner. We are prepared for any scenario due to Iran and Russia becoming closer as a result of the crisis in Ukraine."

 

"If Israel's policy is really to consistently counter Iran's destructive actions, then it is time for Israel to openly side with Ukraine," Kuleba said on Tuesday. More than 70 people have been killed in the past week and a half by drone and missile attacks, according to Kiev.

 
 

On Thursday, Lapid is scheduled to meet with Kuleba to discuss Kyiv's requests for aid. Senior political officials have expressed over the past week that Israel will not change its position on the matter, and will not increase its defense aid to Ukraine.

 
 

Gantz's statements come ahead of his planned phone call with his Ukrainian counterpart Oleksii Reznikov in the coming days, and Russia's warnings to Jerusalem earlier this week not to sell weapons to Ukraine.

 

Israel has been trying to quell Russian suspicions that it is increasing its defense aid to Ukrainian forces. Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned on Monday that supplying military equipment to Ukraine would "destroy the political relations between the two countries."

 

On the heels of the warning, Gantz cancelled a phone call that with Reznikov that had been scheduled for that day.

 

Medvedev, a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, added in his Telegram post that Israel arming Kyiv "would be a very reckless step."

 

An Israeli official told Haaretz that they believe Medvedev's remarks came after Diaspora Minister Nachman Shai urged Israel to send military equipment to Ukraine on Sunday.

 

Shai twitted that "Iran is supplying ballistic missile to Russia. The doubts about where Israel should stand in this bloody conflict are over. There is no room to be self-righteous anymore. The time has come that we provide Ukraine with military aid as the U.S. and NATO do."

Reading between the lines. Israel is worried that Iran will be able to better evade Israeli defenses if it can get its hands on Israeli defensive weapons.

Russia still has buttons that it can push in Syria and Iran that can impact Israel directly.

Over 100,000 Israeli citizens live in Russia,with 80,000 Israelis living in Moscow,while hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens reside in Israel, from around 1.5 million native Russian-speaking Israelis.

Putin has been somewhat pro-Israel and has helped Israel in getting Lebanon to get Hezbollah to stop digging tunnels into Israel. And under Putin, Russia has limited the UN resolutions against Israel regarding the Palestinian issue.

The relatively peaceful relationship between Israel and Russia changed after the invasion of Ukraine and the start of Yair Lapid's tenure as Prime Minister of Israel.

Israel is fighting internally between an isolationist faction and a faction that wants to supply advanced weapons to a distant country that hasn't been a traditional ally. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

If we all don’t die in a nuclear war, I want this to end with the destruction of most of the Russian military….and sanctions so crippling that most of Russia has to endure long breadlines, empty shelves, few if any luxury consumer goods, no ability to travel outside Russia or participate in global sports, high unemployment and an economy so weak that they can’t spend any money on military - mostly because much of the oil and gas money goes to Ukrainian reparation.

For. Fucking. Decades.

I want living in Russia to emulate the conditions of the 1940s Soviet Union - but without any military.

 

So exactly like North Korea but without the nukes.

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2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

 


If we all don’t die in a nuclear war, I want this to end with the destruction of most of the Russian military….and sanctions so crippling that most of Russia has to endure long breadlines, empty shelves, few if any luxury consumer goods, no ability to travel outside Russia or participate in global sports, high unemployment and an economy so weak that they can’t spend any money on military - mostly because much of the oil and gas money goes to Ukrainian reparation.

For. Fucking. Decades.

I want living in Russia to emulate the conditions of the 1940s Soviet Union - but without any military.

 

Or conditions in the Weimar Republic. Because that worked out well. 

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6 hours ago, Fico said:

I'm with you. My two best guesses are them not wanting to share their tech/capabilities and/or still wanting to play nice with Russia to manage issues in Syria.

A lot to unpack here but the key thing to understand is that Israeli is ruthlessly self-interested (they have to be) and should never be expected to burn bridges or seriously piss off any global power that could either help with or fuck with their security situation. 
 

I am sympathetic to their geopolitical reality but think they are wrong, it’s rank bullshit that they will run to us to fund protection from Iranian drones but won’t do shit to keep Iranian drones from killing Ukrainians. 

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10 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Israel can DIAFF, as far as I'm concerned.  They see open genocide and do nothing.  Fuck 'em, I hope they get overrun by the Arab nations (won't happen but I can hope)

Why single out Israel? Do you feel the same about India and hope for their destruction? Moreover, do you see that you're hoping for a western-oriented democracy that is starting neutral to be overrun by countries that are even more supportive of the genocide to the extent that they're helping fund it and giving critical weapons to enable further genocidal behavior?

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6 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Why single out Israel? Do you feel the same about India and hope for their destruction? Moreover, do you see that you're hoping for a western-oriented democracy that is starting neutral to be overrun by countries that are even more supportive of the genocide to the extent that they're helping fund it and giving critical weapons to enable further genocidal behavior?

Perhaps I overdid it w/ a bit of hyperbole but I'm inclined to let them FAFO.  India didn't lose 6 million people in a European genocide.  The U.S. hasn't propped up India's military to allow them to exist, while enemies were all around them and wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel is a shitty ally.  Let'em make it on their own from now on.  I'm sick of their shit.

Edited by DigglerontheHoof
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10 hours ago, pops said:

I dont get the Israeli position here. Zelensky is a jew for fucks sake.

This comes across poorly. It is like someone saying Trump is a Christ guy for fucks sake. Biden should support him. There is a lot wrong with both the wording and the line of thinking.

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Israel is supporting Ukraine, just not with weapons systems. I understand them not wanting to share the “Iron Dome”. They rely on it for their defense, because they have been having missiles (mainly originating from Iran) fired at them for decades. I’m sure they have a lot of key technology in them that they are not willing to share willy nilly. not for business reasons, but to preserve their own security, which is under constant attack. 
 

https://www.reuters.com/world/israel-edges-toward-air-defence-assistance-ukraine-2022-10-19/

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I would describe Israel as democratic-ish.  
 

The Israelis have a lot of complex issues that don’t all align: a proxy war with Iran, a hot war on their border in Syrah, the whole Palestinian thing, a dysfunctional political system.  And the last has a direct connection to the Ukrainian war in that ensuring the ability of Russian Jews to immigrate is important both philosophically and politically, as they tend to be pretty conservative in their politics. 

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10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Man….they could sell the opportunity for $100 a minute, and make enough to restart their whole economy.

Anyone interested in a business venture…I know some great coders in Croatia that I’m sure would love to help. 

Edited by RockyMountainHighHorn
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3 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Saudi Arabia - ...

You neglected to mention that we spurned their requests to wage war against Iran and Syria.  They were banging that drum loudly when Obama took office.  We didn't dance on their strings and the relationship cooled.  They even threatened to pull support for the petrodollar.

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the  legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

And because of how arms transfers work, they’ve prevented some countries from transferring Israeli-made equipment that’s in their arsenal.

And we have  situation where Russia was known to actively pressure Israel not to supply Ukraine with armaments that Ukraine wished to purchase, while still providing regional players (such as Azerbaijan) with weapons.  That meant that after Russia invaded in 2014, Israel would not sell to Ukraine.

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When Ukraine similarly attempted to acquire Israeli-made UAVs in 2014, Russian pressure on the Israeli government forced Aeronautics to cancel the deal. Just years before, in 2009, Israel's IAI supplied Russia with a number of Searcher II reconnaissance UAVs and granted a license for their assembly and eventual production under the designation of Forpost. The Russian Air Force has since converted a number of these to armed drones and deployed them during the invasion of Ukraine. 

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For Ukraine, the inability to procure Israeli drones while at the same time being on the receiving end of munitions dropped by Israeli-designed drones must be an infuriating state of affairs.

This is one of those times that they want to have their cake and eat it too.

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5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Germany training thousands of Ukrainians, meanwhile Russia gives their trainees just enough time to buy their own body armor and clothing at jacked up prices (probably from their own commanding officers), before sending them off to die.

 

I wonder what number of Russian conscripts...or whatever they're calling them...equal 15K NATO trained Ukes, as far as being effective, well equipped battlefield additions?

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would say that one difference is that Israel is a client state- of us.  It’s not just a nation that gets assistance.  U.S. security assistance and regional presence and diplomatic clout are quite literally what keeps Israel in existence as a functioning modern state in its neighborhood.  They’ve made some strides with neighbors thanks to common ground against Iran, but fundamentally, almost every other country on earth that maintains decent relations with Israel does so to garner goodwill from us.

And it’s a unique client state in that it enjoys most of these things as a one way street. It is good to have a democracy in the region, but we do not have key security interests at stake in Israel’s vicinity and in fact carrying Israeli water makes life more difficult rather than less.  The relationship exists because most Americans believe it is the right thing to do and no other reason. I, personally, am in favor of ensuring the existence of Israel as a nation and democratic state. 
 

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

I agree with what you are saying. However, it is leaving out an important part of the equation. A country's foreign policy is always to serve its own interests. Read @SL Xpress comments on the previous page. Israel is not very strategically important other than it being a democracy in the middle east. OTOH, most of the remaining middle east has oil and natural gas. So, most of the world in general is going to cozy up to the oil producing countries in order to maintain peace and prosperity at home. This means that on all things UN related, Israel is always going to be on the losing end as long as the middle east considers Israel an intruder. Anything that Israel can do to keep in good standing is strategically important. Putin's Russia has been somewhat supportive of Israel and the US has put some pressures on Israel as of late. Israel realizes that it can't put all of its eggs in the US basket and the more widespread support it can get the better off it is. So, Israel can't be just a US proxy. It has to look out for its own interests as well.

And that is looking solely at things geopolitically. Remember also that there are many jewish people in Russia who could get caught in the crossfire of a rift between Israel and Russia. And while Israel supports Ukraine, pissing of Russia could cause repercussions to the jewish population of Russia. Russia can also stir up problems for Israel locally through Iran and Syria and Lebanon.

Finally, the US isn't sending its top of the line military equipment. It is sending older, surplus stuff. Israel has no interest in sending its most sophisticated anti-drone and missile technology. Doing so would be foolhardy.

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Bryan Cranston Reaction GIF
 

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-jet-released-missile-near-raf-aircraft-during-patrol-over-black-sea-12725414
 

Quote

In a statement updating MPs on the war in Ukraine, Ben Wallace said the incident happened on 29 September and that Russia has acknowledged it took place in international airspace.

The RAF RC-135 aircraft was on routine patrol over the Black Sea when it was "shadowed" by two Russian armed SU-27 fighter jets.

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Mr Wallace said that while it is not unusual for aircraft to be shadowed in this way, "during that interaction however, it transpired that one of the SU-27 aircraft released a missile in the vicinity of the RAF Rivet Joint beyond visual range".

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The Commons heard Russia blamed the Black Sea incident on a "technical malfunction" of the SU-27 jet.

The British defence secretary said: "Our analysis would concur it was a malfunction."

"The total time of the interaction between the Russian aircraft and the Rivet Joint was approximately 90 minutes," he said. "The patrol completed and the aircraft returned to base."

Patrol aircraft are now escorted by NATO fighters.

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27 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I assume the phrasing "Released missile" is intentionally vague? Like released it and it failed to ignite and simply fell to earth? Fired the missile and the Rivet Joint successfully jammed it? 

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23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Not really for this thread but Israel is what the democracy index says it is: a flawed democracy. The only other eastern med country that holds close to that status is Lebanon, which is a mess because of Civil War.

Israel has an elected government, genuine political competition, and a marketplace of ideas. Opposing political parties routinely take the reins of a government in civilian hands. It is flawed in that many of the inhabitants of its territories are excluded from contesting and influencing political power, as things were in the U.S. under Jim Crow. Or the UK until suffrage. 
 

The key difference is that Israel theoretically could reform its existing system into a full as opposed to flawed democracy.  Its neighbors are authoritarian regimes and cannot reform their systems into democracy— they are explicitly anti-democratic. 
 

This is a tremendously important distinction even as Israel gets justifiably called out for its deep flaws. 

Right, but why is having that system of government in that region a good thing?

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9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Right, but why is having that system of government in that region a good thing?

I believe it is good everywhere when people are empowered within a system that fences off key civil liberties and are not oppressed. I realize that makes me terribly old-fashioned, parochial even. I think Israel should be more democratic, too, and that most of its problems are because it isn’t. 

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