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7 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

For fuck’s sake. It’s not a thousand year old problem. 

Some of y'all need to stop watching Fox News and The 700 Club and start reading some history books. 

Sorry, maybe you can tell me exactly how long people of different religions have been murdering one another.  That was the point I wanted to make.

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14 minutes ago, statsman said:

Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 

So.....I'm just gonna offer the tiniest bit of strategic advice.  It works for chess.  Legal disputes.  Wars.  All the things.

When it is crystal clear that your opponent WANTS you to do "X".....you probably need to do all you can to find a way to do something other than "X."  If we're playing chess, I take your bishop, and you grin when I do so, that probably was not a move that is in my long-term interest.  

That's not exactly next-level strategic advice.  It's pretty elementary, actually.  But Bibi ignores it.  Because Bibi gives a shit about all the wrong things -- none of those things being Israel's long-term best interests.

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53 minutes ago, statsman said:

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

This is one of the big problems with Israel refusing to move to a real two-state.  They should have done so. Ideally, trading recognition of a Palestinian state for other Arab nations taking on the birthing pains under the guise of a multinational force and administration. 
 

The smart play would have been to unilaterally announce its existence, pull out settlers, and hand over WB and Gaza to a provisional Fatah government and tell Jordan, Saudi, Egypt, etc. that they get to take care of security and stabilization. 

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9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The smart play would have been to unilaterally announce its existence, pull out settlers, and hand over WB and Gaza to a provisional Fatah government and tell Jordan, Saudi, Egypt, etc. that they get to take care of security and stabilization. 

The smart play, but Israeli leadership is not interested in any reality that does not end with expansion of Israeli holdings at the expense of the occupied people. The objective is to slice and dice the WB up into non-contiguous pieces of land. You shut down free passage, you stifle economic activity, you dehumanize the population, and you just keep moving the walls outwards. The play is the eventual assimilation of Judea and Samaria into the nation of Israel. But you can only run that play when you have a willing partner on the security council that will block any international attempts to intervene, will runs PR interference, and drop you a few billion here and there when you need to replenish the stockpiles. 

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1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

It’s horrible. 

Anything we should do about it? Are you comfortable with continuing to fund and supply the exercise? Do you think that we are complicit in the collective punishment/ethnic cleansing/genocide (pick whichever one you are comfortable with)? Have you any thoughts on the ICJ proceedings? Any thoughts on what it means under international law to enable genocide?

Anything at all substantive?

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1 hour ago, statsman said:

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

 

As just a logistics matter, it's kind of hard not to be close to a population center in Gaza with 2 million people packed into 141 square miles (14,000 people per square mile). By comparison, the City of Austin proper, not including Travis County, is about 1 million in a 326-square-mile area (3,000 per square mile).

Yes, I know it's much more complicated than that, but so is your argument.

And, just to be really clear, I do not in any way support Hamas or their actions, including murder, rape, terrorism, hostage-taking, etc. I'm simply pointing out the fault on that one point.

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

As just a logistics matter, it's kind of hard not to be close to a population center in Gaza with 2 million people packed into 141 square miles (14,000 people per square mile). By comparison, the City of Austin proper, not including Travis County, is about 1 million in a 326-square-mile area (3,000 per square mile).

Yes, I know it's much more complicated than that, but so is your argument.

And, just to be really clear, I do not in any way support Hamas or their actions, including murder, rape, terrorism, hostage-taking, etc. I'm simply pointing out the fault on that one point.

The geographic context that you have provided previously (dont remember if it was this one or the DT version) is very useful and helps people to understand the lay of the land, and contextualize the carving up of the WB. This is something that people familiar with central Texas can relate to. 

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5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Bibi is trying to keep forever war, because then he stay in forever office, stay out of forever prison, and eventually achieve his lifelong goal, forever extermination of the Palestinian people.

Am I going to hell for hearing a calypso beat behind this?

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

So.....I'm just gonna offer the tiniest bit of strategic advice.  It works for chess.  Legal disputes.  Wars.  All the things.

When it is crystal clear that your opponent WANTS you to do "X".....you probably need to do all you can to find a way to do something other than "X."  If we're playing chess, I take your bishop, and you grin when I do so, that probably was not a move that is in my long-term interest.  

That's not exactly next-level strategic advice.  It's pretty elementary, actually.  But Bibi ignores it.  Because Bibi gives a shit about all the wrong things -- none of those things being Israel's long-term best interests.

This is what Israel did for a number of years, as the rockets kept coming in from the south and north; they built an “Iron Dome”, rather than return bombings to the sites they launched from, in civilian centers. How much empathy from the rest of the world did it get them?

What ideas do you have for defeating Hamas, “surgically”? I have one- Qatar could have been so horrified that they turned Hamas leadership over to Israel, to deal with (or better, popped a cap into Hamas’ leaders’ heads themselves). But, they didn’t. Because they are fine with Hamas. The brutal reality is- Israel is surrounded by neighbors that do not believe it has a right to exist as a nation. Furthermore, many of those nations have populations that don’t believe Jews have a right to exist- it’s in their spoken and written statements, and even louder in their actions. Israel, and Jews worldwide, understand that very clearly now. (They have past experience with it). 
 
Everybody wants to relieve the humanitarian disaster by having Israel cease operations. How about if Hamas ceases, and surrenders? Or, its leadership? Why doesn’t anyone ask for that? Oh, because they won’t? That they intend to continue the fight, to repeat October 7 at the first opportunity? 
 
A few people have posted that they know Israelis, and it’s not just Netanyahu wanting to press this war, that the nation has a different attitude about it now. Maybe the peace is going to have to come from Hamas- whether it’s willing or not. 

Edited by statsman
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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Anything we should do about it? Are you comfortable with continuing to fund and supply the exercise? Do you think that we are complicit in the collective punishment/ethnic cleansing/genocide (pick whichever one you are comfortable with)? Have you any thoughts on the ICJ proceedings? Any thoughts on what it means under international law to enable genocide?

Anything at all substantive?

I don’t have any answers. I hate everything about the situation. I’m extremely torn as a person of Jewish heritage that is shamed by the actions of the current Israeli government.

Whatever opinions I have won’t change anything either. So there’s no point in me engaging with you on this. 

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1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

Am I going to hell for hearing a calypso beat behind this?

Bibi whispers promises and lies, while children ask, "Why do we cry?"
Injustice thrives on endless war, and hate is what they're fighting for
For power, for land, no peace, no healing hand

Bibi wants no prison, but Bibi wants the power, it is the reason
Bibi has a lifelong goal, but he has to sell his soul
But there will be no extermination, the people want a nation

Sun shines over troubled land, where hate fights for Promised Land
Walls of hate begin to crumble, voices rise, refusing rumble
Lay down the arms, the pain, the fear, build a future, loud and clear

Every voice, a rising song, calling out for right and wrong
We'll break the chains of hate and fear, build a world where all hold dear
Not borders drawn in blood and sand, but freedom across the land

(partially assisted by AI)

Edited by bolverk
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6 minutes ago, statsman said:

This is what Israel did for a number of years, as the rockets kept coming in from the south and north; they built an “Iron Dome”, rather than return bombings to the sites they launched from, in civilian centers. How much empathy from the rest of the world did it get them?

Do you have me on ignore or something? Did you not see the article I reposted this afternoon citing Israeli intelligence that a main source, if not *the* main source, of Hamas' ordinance comes from unexploded IDF bombs in Gaza? 

Quote

What ideas do you have for defeating Hamas, “surgically”? I have one- Qatar could have been so horrified that they turned Hamas leadership over to Israel, to deal with (or better, popped a cap into Hamas’ leaders’ heads themselves). But, they didn’t. Because they are fine with Hamas. The brutal reality is- Israel is surrounded by neighbors that do not believe it has a right to exist as a nation. Furthermore, many of those nations have populations that don’t believe Jews have a right to exist- it’s in their spoken and written statements, and even louder in their actions. Israel, and Jews worldwide, understand that very clearly now. (They have past experience with it). 

 Jordan & Egypt already recognize Israel, as does the UAE. Saudi was getting ready to but Hamas and their backers fucked that up for the time being. The Palestinian Authority also recognizes Israel, but for some reason, Bibi's government refuses to recognize the right of a Palestinian State to exist. Israel is not in the same precarious state that you pretend it is.

Now, imagine if the Israeli government had realized they couldn't force millions of people to live in a ghetto forever when they should've allowed Palestinians their own land 25 years ago. Do you honestly believe Hamas would exist today? 

Fuck. I'm 52 years old, and Israel has illegally occupied those lands and subjugated those people for longer than I've been alive. 

 

Quote

 

Everybody wants to relieve the humanitarian disaster by having Israel cease operations. How about if Hamas ceases, and surrenders? Or, its leadership? Why doesn’t anyone ask for that? Oh, because they won’t? That they intend to continue the fight, to repeat October 7 at the first opportunity? 

 

As others have pointed out multiple times. You can't wipe out an idea militarily, and one would think you'd realize you also can't wipe out ideological or religious-based terrorism militarily either. Haven't you learned anything from Afghanistan and Iraq? Counter-terrorism strategies include much more than just indiscriminate bombing and bulldozing houses, which we all know will only breed more contempt. It requires a target police action along with aleviating the conditions in which those ideas thrive.

 

Quote

 

A few people have posted that they know Israelis, and it’s not just Netanyahu wanting to press this war, that the nation has a different attitude about it now. Maybe the peace is going to have to come from Hamas- whether it’s willing or not. 

 

I'll confess I don't know any Israelis personally, and I don't doubt that the rage most feel burns hot. But from what I've seen, they are not united in support of the conduct of this war or how they've handled the hostage situation.

 

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1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

I don’t have any answers. I hate everything about the situation. I’m extremely torn as a person of Jewish heritage that is shamed by the actions of the current Israeli government.

I know that we butt up over and over again, but I can appreciate this. I honestly can't imagine how hard that is. I get accused of having split loyalties, but have none. I can only imagine how hard these kinda of things are to weigh in on for those that actually do. 

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Whatever opinions I have won’t change anything either. So there’s no point in me engaging with you on this. 

None of our opinions change anything. The posters on this board are insignificant to history. In this little small section of the world, an internet bulletin board (but the largest political forum in the great state of Texas!)., our posts are worth and accomplish nothing. Doesn't mean you can't chime in with a perspective on our country enabling ethnic cleansing. 

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

None of our opinions change anything. The posters on this board are insignificant to history. In this little small section of the world, an internet bulletin board (but the largest political forum in the great state of Texas!)., our posts are worth and accomplish nothing. Doesn't mean you can't chime in with a perspective on our country enabling ethnic cleansing. 

In the big picture, I agree with you. However, in this community, opinions on various topics have been moderated or have been flipped due to the debates we've engaged in. Yes, it's a small, trivial percentage of the overall electorate, but nonetheless, it's likely more productive than random doorknocking.

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11 minutes ago, bolverk said:

In the big picture, I agree with you. However, in this community, opinions on various topics have been moderated or have been flipped due to the debates we've engaged in. Yes, it's a small, trivial percentage of the overall electorate, but nonetheless, it's likely more productive than random doorknocking.

Don't disagree. I've certainly changed and moderated some positions over the decades worth of exchanges. Of course the quality of the discourse has fallen off a cliff over that same timeframe, at least from my perspective. But that is a complex topic and I am trying to keep it [serious].

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Have any of you ever had a “conscientious objector” at work?  I have an employee who married a Palestinian lady. She was a kid when the first war took place, and was forced to relocate to Egypt.  As a result she didn’t get her vaccinations, for whatever reasons because refugees.  Got TB or something and lost a lung as an adult.  Now she is dying from cancer, and he’s like nah, fuck those guys. I’m not doing anything to help them do more of that.  I’m at a loss as to what to do other than hey, I understand, I’d feel the same way.  But here’s your job.   If you want to quit, I understand.  

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4 hours ago, bolverk said:

I'll confess I don't know any Israelis personally, and I don't doubt that the rage most feel burns hot. 

 

The rage of the 30s and 40s burns hot but they still didn't learn some things they could have.  When you get your ass kicked hard you usually learn a thing or two.  You learn that kicking someone's ass is not the way, but for some reason they still feel so entitled.  The Japanese got their asses handed to them in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  The aftermath completely changed the mindset of an entire country.  They don't want to fight anyone anymore. 

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.  

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11 hours ago, AnTiM said:

Sorry, maybe you can tell me exactly how long people of different religions have been murdering one another.  That was the point I wanted to make.

Like “war is hell,” ”these two religions have always hated each other” is a thought-terminating cliche. It’s useless, both for understanding the reasons for a given conflict and for identifying solutions. 

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3 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

The rage of the 30s and 40s burns hot but they still didn't learn some things they could have.  When you get your ass kicked hard you usually learn a thing or two.  You learn that kicking someone's ass is not the way, but for some reason they still feel so entitled.  The Japanese got their asses handed to them in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  The aftermath completely changed the mindset of an entire country.  They don't want to fight anyone anymore. 

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.  

I posted pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back.  It seems to have flown over everyone's head.

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23 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I posted pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back.  It seems to have flown over everyone's head.

No, we understood it. We just don’t agree that collective punishment is justifiable.

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It looks like Egypt is preparing for the inevitable exodus of Palestinians from Gaza. I think it is highly unlikely that Gazans will ever be allowed to return to Gaza if they cross the border into Egypt and out of harm’s way. Israel has given Hamas an ultimatum of releasing all hostages by Ramadan—or else. The “else” is likely to occur regardless of whether the hostages are released. 

The collective punishment of those in Gaza for the heinous acts of Hamas will reverberate through the region for decades. American interests will not be immune from the rage generated by the Israeli government’s campaign against Gazans.  It’s the dismal tide. 

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US proposes UN Security Council oppose Rafah assault, back temporary Gaza ceasefire

UNITED NATIONS, Feb 19 (Reuters) - The United States has proposed an alternative draft United Nations Security Council resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major Israeli ground offensive in Rafah in southern Gaza, according to the text seen by Reuters on Monday.
Washington has been averse to the word ceasefire in any U.N. action on the Israel-Hamas war, but the U.S. draft text echoes language that President Joe Biden said he used last week in conversations with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
9 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

It looks like Egypt is preparing for the inevitable exodus of Palestinians from Gaza. I think it is highly unlikely that Gazans will ever be allowed to return to Gaza if they cross the border into Egypt and out of harm’s way. Israel has given Hamas an ultimatum of releasing all hostages by Ramadan—or else. The “else” is likely to occur regardless of whether the hostages are released. 

The collective punishment of those in Gaza for the heinous acts of Hamas will reverberate through the region for decades. American interests will not be immune from the rage generated by the Israeli government’s campaign against Gazans.  It’s the dismal tide. 

Yes they are. A big ass camp in the Sinai. Another exodus from the Holy Land.

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4 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Can anyone give me a Cliff's Note primer on why we vetoed Algeria's ceasefire resolution at the UN.   I'm too lazy to look up the reasoning.  

 

The stated rationale:

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said that the resolution would jeopardize Washington’s continuing negotiation efforts with Qatar and Egypt to broker a deal that would release hostages from Gaza in exchange for a temporary humanitarian cease-fire. Those negotiations have stumbled, with neither Israel nor Hamas reaching a consensus on the terms for a deal.

“Any action the council takes right now should help not hinder these sensitive and ongoing negotiations,” Ms. Thomas-Greenfield said. “Demanding an immediate unconditional cease-fire without an agreement requiring Hamas to release the hostages will not bring endurable peace.”

Aid agencies were scathing in their criticism of the U.S. position. Avril Benoit, the executive director of Doctors Without Borders in the United States, called the repeated blocking of cease-fire resolutions by the United States “unconscionable.”

“The United States at the U.N. Security Council is effectively sabotaging all efforts to bring assistance,” she said at a panel on Tuesday with other leaders of aid organizations. “The statements are one thing, the actions are another. We see that a cease-fire is the only way to ensure the safe delivery of assistance to the people who need it most.”

Israeli and U.S. officials have argued that an immediate cease-fire would allow Hamas to regroup and fortify in Gaza, and reduce the pressure for making a deal to release hostages held in the territory.

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Scientists’ worst-case model for Gaza over the next 6 months: 85,000 deaths from war and disease.

An escalation of the war in Gaza could lead to the deaths of 85,000 Palestinians from injuries and disease over the next six months, in the worst of three scenarios that prominent epidemiologists have modeled in an effort to understand the potential future death toll of the conflict.

These fatalities would be in addition to the more than 29,000 deaths in Gaza that local authorities have attributed to the conflict since it began in October. The estimate represents “excess deaths,” above what would have been expected had there been no war.

In a second scenario, assuming no change in the current level of fighting or humanitarian access, there could be an additional 58,260 deaths in the enclave over the next six months, according to the researchers, from Johns Hopkins University and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

That figure could climb to 66,720 if there were outbreaks of infectious disease such as cholera, their analysis found.

Even in the best of the three possibilities that the research team described — an immediate and sustained cease-fire with no outbreak of infectious disease — another 6,500 Gazans could die over the next six months as a direct result of the war, the analysis found.

The population of the Gaza Strip before the war was roughly 2.2 million.

“This is not a political message or advocacy,” said Dr. Francesco Checchi, professor of epidemiology and international health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

“We simply wanted to put it at the front of people’s minds and on the desks of decision makers,” he added, “so that it can be said afterward that when these decisions were taken, there was some available evidence on how this would play out in terms of lives.”

Dr. Checchi and his colleagues estimated the projected excess deaths from health data that was available for Gaza before the war began and from that collected through more than four months of fighting.

Their study considers deaths from traumatic injuries, infectious diseases, maternal and neonatal causes, and noncommunicable diseases for which people can no longer receive medication or treatment, such as dialysis.

Dr. Checchi said the analysis made it possible to quantify the potential impact of a cease-fire in lives. “The decisions that are going to be taken over the next few days and weeks matter hugely in terms of the evolution of the death toll in Gaza,” he said.

The projected 6,500 deaths even with a cease-fire is predicated on the assumption there will not be epidemics of infectious disease. With an outbreak of cholera, measles, polio or meningitis, that figure would be 11,580, said Dr. Paul Spiegel, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and an author of the research, which has not been peer-reviewed.

“The point there is even with a cease-fire, we’re not out of the woods whatsoever,” he said. “There’s still a significant number of deaths, and that needs to be prepared for.”

While it is obvious that a military escalation would bring additional casualties, he added, policymakers should be cognizant of the range in the number of deaths that these scenarios indicate.

“We hope to bring some reality to it,” Dr. Spiegel said. “This is 85,000 additional deaths in a population where 1.2 percent of that population has already been killed.”

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Houston Democrats groups in Houston being harassed by anti-semites because they have many Jewish members. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/antisemitism-houston-meyerland-democrats-fletcher-18680543.php

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Once all were escorted out, they began pounding at the entrance doors. 

For 30 minutes, they pounded and screamed. I thought the glass panels would break. 

Roughly 100 people, coming for a regular meeting in free assembly, felt trapped inside by these individuals pounding the doors of the entrance. We had police with us, but it was harrowing.

from one of the people thrown out:

 

 

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On 2/17/2024 at 12:10 AM, Brian Fantana said:

The headline on that was what I was thinking of when I opened the thread.

Quote

Opinion: I’m an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn’t war — it was annihilation

Anybody calling what Israel is doing to Gaza a "war" needs to rethink things. It's a war in the same way an all out US invasion of Costa Rica would be a "war."

Maybe you can call it an anti-terrorist campaign. Maybe add punitive raid to the description.

War suggests struggle between symmetrical opponents. War suggests that either side might win. Using that word to describe what Israel is about gives that nation some moral coverage that is inapt.

Maybe it would be a war if the political entity that is Gaza had fielded a citizen army to carry out the crimes of Oct. 7. Maybe it would be a war if Israel was meeting significant resistance to their airstrikes, armored thrusts, and well equipped army. 

News entities calling this a "war" do the same damage they do when they won't call other things what they are: Climate Disaster instead of Climate Change. Lies instead of misstatements of fact. Would-be dictator instead of GOP nominee.

Israel is not conducting a war. I agree with the American doctor quoted above. 

spacer.png

_131546879_gaza_beit_hanoun_east_before_

 

Support it. Don't support it. Just call it what it is. 

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It is genocide. Israel is playing like the Serbs did in their siege of Sarajevo.

Open up an aid corridor, get international forces to provide movement security. Base it out of Egypt and fuck Bibi.

Use their SF to get Hamas. Not 155mm rounds and 500 pound bombs.

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New plans: Take more destruction of housing & land for a buffer zone, long-term military occupation, civilian collaboration, Israeli control of education & welfare in addition to the current authority over telecoms & utilities, and continued opposition to any foreign recognition of a Palestinian state.

The only democracy in the Middle East?

Netanyahu’s postwar plans for Gaza are at odds with some allies’ positions.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel released on Friday his most detailed vision yet for a postwar Gaza, pledging to retain indefinite military control over the enclave while ceding the administration of civilian life to Gazans without links to Hamas.

The plan, if realized, would make it almost impossible to establish a contiguous Palestinian state in Gaza and the Israeli-occupied West Bank, at least in the short term. That would likely accelerate a clash between Israel and a growing number of its foreign partners, including the United States, that are pushing for Palestinian sovereignty after the war ends.

Mr. Netanyahu released his plan on the day that Israeli, Qatari, U.S. and Egyptian officials were set to meet in Paris in an effort to advance a deal for a cease-fire and the release of hostages captured by Hamas and its allies in their Oct. 7 attacks. While Israeli officials have indicated that they are open to making a deal to pause fighting and free captives, they have steadfastly rejected pressure to move toward a permanent cease-fire, insisting that they are prepared to wage a protracted campaign to destroy Hamas.

Mr. Netanyahu’s plan envisions the creation of an Israeli-controlled buffer zone along the length of Gaza’s border with Egypt, a move that risks inflaming tensions with the Egyptian government. That aspect of the plan would require Israel to invade Rafah, the southernmost city of Gaza, where most Gazans are currently sheltering, risking their mass displacement onto Egyptian territory, an outcome that Egypt has repeatedly warned against.

The plan also says Israel will seek to retain control over a sliver of land inside Gaza along the Israeli border, where its military is systematically demolishing thousands of buildings in order to create another buffer zone. Israel’s intention is to make it harder for militants in Gaza to repeat a raid like that of Oct. 7, in which Israeli officials say some 1,200 people were killed, although the United States and others have spoken out against any effort to reduce the size of Gaza.

The plan was circulated to cabinet ministers and journalists in the early hours of Friday morning. Though Mr. Netanyahu has laid out most of the proposals in public statements, this is the first time that he has collected them in a single document.

The plan does not say whether Israeli settlers would be allowed to re-establish communities on Gazan soil, as Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing supporters are pushing for. A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss a matter that puts the prime minister at odds with his base, said that there were no plans to resettle Gaza with Jews, but declined to say so on the record, leaving Mr. Netanyahu with room for maneuver in the future.

Israel dismantled its settlements in Gaza in 2005, while maintaining control over its airspace, access to the sea, population registry and telecommunication networks.

Other parts of the plan include:

  • Handing administrative control to “local stakeholders with managerial experience” who are “not affiliated with countries or entities that support terrorism.” The reference to terrorism aims to exclude anyone that Israel says has connections to Hamas. And while the document does not explicitly mention the Palestinian Authority, the body that administers parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, the reference to local residents implicitly rules out the involvement of the authority’s leadership in the postwar set-up — a position that is at odds with that of the Biden administration.
  • The dismantling of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency operating in Gaza. Israel has accused 30 UNRWA workers of participating in the Oct. 7 attack. UNRWA’s leaders say the agency tries to ensure its 13,000 employees in Gaza uphold standards of neutrality, but they say it is not possible to track the private allegiances of all its employees.
  • The overhaul of the Gazan education and welfare systems. Israel says schools and other public institutions in Gaza foment extremism.
  • Opposing foreign recognition of a Palestinian state. The plan says that a final resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can only be achieved through bilateral talks between the two sides — an implicit rejection of hints by countries including Britain and France that they could unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state. Mr. Netanyahu has previously rejected the concept of an independent Palestinian state, but his plan released on Friday did not explicitly rule it out.
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If only the good ole days when Israel was just bulldozing a rando house every once in awhile, settlers stealing orchards, IDF boot prints in the shape of the star of david literally on the face of palestinians, killing journalists and then deploying police to beat people up at their funerals, incarcerating the random juvenile and shoving a broom stick up their ass during interrogation. Simpler times. Back when it was easy for people to deflect and they could act like they weren't paying attention.    

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On 2/14/2024 at 3:18 AM, PRONG HORN said:

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.

As poorly as we treat/have treated the Native Americans, the Israelis treat the Palestinians much, much worse. At least the Native Americans are all U.S. citizens, can vote, and are even eligible to be President.

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On 2/23/2024 at 10:53 AM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

this is nutty. this is second time I am aware of this weapon being used. this shit is crazy. the projectile doesn't explode, it just ginsu's whomever is in its path.

 

The first being the time they took out the IS leader in Syria, right?

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/09/drone-strike-islamic-state-leader-syria-00105334

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47 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

As poorly as we treat/have treated the Native Americans, the Israelis treat the Palestinians much, much worse. At least the Native Americans are all U.S. citizens, can vote, and are even eligible to be President.

Yes, I’m sure the millions of Native Americans annihilated by disease and genocidal extermination are super excited one of their descendants can be President one day.  You know that thing we totally know will never fucking happen.  
 

All Yahweh and Allah had to do was just show them all a map of the whole world instead of just one small region of it.  Instead they all got stuck in a bag to fight it out.  I’m starting to think none of this real.  

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