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Elon Musk: Visionary or Fraud?


MaybeACoordinator

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Yeah Tesla makes pretty electric cars, but that's an old concept, and when the majors roll out their models, he will be destroyed. His workers say he's a dick who puts them in danger all the time. Still waiting for Space X to accomplish something other than talk. He did nothing more than get underfoot in the Thailand cave rescue, and I've seen dudes light farts with more killing power than that fucking flamethrower of his. And what the blue hell is he doing messing around with crap like that to begin with, if he is Mr Future Buck Rogers Super Genius.

Hyperloop? Lol-loop more like. 

 

The dude is a fraud, and his collapse will make Enron's look like the failure of a barrio raspa stand. 

He fooled us. He made a bunch of money on a pretty simple Internet concept, he has a cool Bond-villain name, and that's about it. 

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Subscribed. Where do I send my $9.95?

ETA: OBTW, you can put me in the camp that thinks he's a fraud re: Tesla & "clean energy" (lol) electric cars. Have for years. And got damn, I've put out more car fires than I can remember, & a lot of 'em were fully involved, but I've never seen a car burn up even remotely like these Teslas are burning up. The Tesla's are basically gone after their fires, and when you put out a normal car fire, it doesn't require a hazmat team to clean it up & it doesn't reignite later, esp not more than once, & esp not hours or days later. That's shit's just insane. 

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Musk, in some ways, has become not only a Rorschach test for how people feel about Silicon Valley, but also how they feel about the extraordinary, and in many cases insidious, effects the technology industry is unleashing upon society‚ÄĒone that has allowed a rarified group of billionaires to use their prowess and intellect to attempt to shape the universe to their liking.

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 Michael Bloomberg used his perch as a data-services genius to exert his influence over everything from sugary drinks to the Second Amendment. Tom Steyer, a hedge-fund manager, has used his wealth to fund a crusade against environmental malpractice and Donald Trump.

 

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Elon Musk is the Cosmo Kramer of Crony Capitalism

His wacky schemes never pan out but they do cost the taxpayers billions. Isn't it time we closed our refrigerators?

Anyone familiar with the hit sitcom¬†Seinfeld¬†knows that Cosmo Kramer, the rambunctious, eccentric neighbor of Jerry Seinfeld, had a lot of big ideas. From¬†make-your-own-pizza parlors¬†to¬†tie dispensers¬†to the infamous ‚Äúmansierre,‚ÄĚ Kramer was‚ÄĒin his own mind‚ÄĒa world-changing revolutionary.¬†¬†¬†

Of course, aside from one notable exception (the Regis Philbin-approved pop-out coffee table book), none of his ideas ever panned out. But lack of achievement is exactly what viewers expected every week. The whole fun of Kramer was his dream-big mentality and the impracticality that came with it.    

No one on the show was senseless enough to support Kramer in his work. In fact, in one episode, Leland fired him even though he did not hold any standing position. Kramer couldn’t even keep a job at a bagel store for longer than a few days. It was his friends’ open refrigerators that provided him with the life support he needed to continue dreaming and inventing. 

This comedy sitcom case study is ironically much more sensible than what occurs in real life. There are plenty of Cosmo Kramers out in the world today with ideas that are even more ambitious than anything Kramerica Industries could have formulated. The only difference is that these individuals have armies of lobbyists that can convince our spendthrift government to finance their ideas, even though they have yet to pass any free-market smell tests.   

Perhaps the most recent example of such a politically astute, Kramer-like figure is Elon Musk. This larger-than-life media personality plans to do everything from sending men to the moon and Mars, to creating a 700-miles-per-hour tunnel transportation system, to turbocharging human brains by implanting computers.   

All of these are excellent ideas, to be sure, but ones that bear significant amounts of risk. Unfortunately, Mr. Musk does not seem willing to bear all the risk himself. His business model revolves around hiring experts to navigate the waters of the Washington swamp to discover ways to make the American people pick up the tab.  

Take Tesla, for example. The car company was created to bring electric vehicles to the¬†general public¬†en¬†masse‚ÄĒa mission that oddly requires¬†over $1 million¬†in lobbying expenditures annually. As a result, the cars are financed by over $280 million in federal tax incentives, including a $7,500 federal tax break, and tens of millions more in state rebates and development fees.¬†¬†¬†

Despite receiving all this government money, Musk‚Äôs company has not shown demonstrable results. Yesterday, Bloomberg released a story under the¬†headline¬†‚ÄúTesla Doesn‚Äôt Burn Fuel, It Burns Cash,‚ÄĚ detailing how the company spends $6,500 a minute and may run out of money by the end of the year. Just weeks ago, Moody‚Äôs¬†downgraded¬†Tesla‚Äôs credit rating due to its seeming inability to meet deadlines. Mr. Musk‚Äôs estimate of producing¬†20,000 vehicles¬†in December, for instance, turned into just over 2,400 in the entire fourth quarter.¬†¬†

It is no wonder that when these government subsidies die, electric vehicle sales plummet. Three years ago, sales sunk by more than 80 percent in the state of Georgia when the $5,000 state tax credit phased out. Last year, sales declined by 60 percent when its EV tax breaks sharply fell. These empirical case studies do not paint a positive picture of Tesla’s future, especially given that its federal tax break is expected to phase out sometime this year. Perhaps funding Kramer’s big ball of oil in the name of alleviating the world’s spillage problems would have been just as, if not more, fruitful.  

SpaceX is no better. Roughly 85 percent of its contracts come directly from the federal government. The aerospace manufacturer hit a¬†then-personal record¬†of $2 million in annual lobbying spending not long ago as it continued its quest to conquer the stars.¬†New York¬†magazine once¬†asked¬†‚ÄúAre Elon Musk‚Äôs Aggressive Lobbyists Bad for Silicon¬†Valley?‚Ä̬†but without them the government-dependent company might not even exist.¬†¬†¬†

SpaceX has already received roughly $15 billion in subsidy guarantees from Texas, and despite meeting just one sixth of the hiring goals it promised, it is requesting $5 million more. Similarly, even though SpaceX has already received over $70 million from the federal government to develop its BFR, the company would like more on that front as well. 

Meanwhile, just last week, NASA‚Äôs Office of Inspector General¬†found¬†that SpaceX has raised the cost of some launches by over 50 percent due to having ‚Äúa better understanding of the costs involved after several years of experience with cargo resupply missions.‚ÄĚ This new development means that the government‚Äôs deal‚ÄĒalready diluted by costly rocket failures‚ÄĒcontinues to get worse and worse.¬†¬†¬†

And don’t even get me started on SolarCity, Mr. Musk’s solar panel company, which has still not turned an annual profit despite receiving over $490 million in grants from the Treasury Department over the years and the government covering 30 percent of its installation costs.   

As a free market capitalist, I am rooting for Mr. Musk to pull it together and succeed. But I don’t want the federal government to waste any more of Americans’ hard-earned cash to make it happen.   

We will never know what the well-intentioned Cosmo Kramer could have accomplished had Jerry and the rest of the gang cut him off from their refrigerators, homes, and other welfare as a means of forcing him to follow through with his goals. However, we can still explore how taking away such measures of comfort will affect Elon Musk’s motivation and decision-making. Ironically, it just may be the recipe for success that the ambitious CEO needs.

Norm Singleton is the chairman of Campaign for Liberty.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/elon-musk-is-the-cosmo-kramer-of-crony-capitalism/

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37 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Elon Musk developed a reusable rocket that takes off and lands vertically. 

I’m going to put him in the Visionary camp by a comfortable margin 

If his batteries are to where it seems like on cost to power storage that is revolutionary. 

Plus, he showed everyone that if you build an electric car not being an ugly ass econobox helps a lot.

Stand alone megawatt plant using renewable is pretty revolutionary as well.

The big issue with reading up on Musk is almost everything written about him is either fanboy fawning or haters rooting for his failure.  

Edited by ShaggyBevo RIP
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I think he is visionary, but not a great business man. His ideas have merit, but his business are not money makers. There is nothing wrong with not making money, except for the fact that he is using billions of $$$$'s of other peoples money.

Add to the list
- Solar City (a failed solar roof company, that he saved by making it an losing investment for Tesla)
- The Boring Company, currently digging tunnels in LA, and soon to link Chicago downtown to O'Hare airport. Wait until those tunnels flood, or an earthquake hits LA
- "the hyperloop" still a concept, but the PT Barnum in Musk is promoting it

In some ways he is like Nikoli Tesla, so driven to have his ideas come to the market that he never made money at it. Tesla signed away his rights to Westinghouse so that AC would become the standard and that he beat Edison and DC current.
 

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As someone who worked in the defense industry for years with technical skills in the area of rockets, I can confidently say that what he’s done with SpaceX is absolutely remarkable.

Tesla has been interesting in that he’s been the only one of many to try to get an electric car company off the ground. Yes, he’s benefited tremendously from massive subsidies and hordes of cash, but that is what it takes to build such a unique new company. He should get some credit for that. No one else has done it.

Solar City is far less impressive, and has a stench to it, as a result of being acquired by Tesla the way it was. However, there still is an amazing big idea at the root of that company. If it comes to fruition he deserves credit.

Yes, as a person he’s a complete piece of shit, from what I’ve read. So was Steve Jobs.

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The OP posted a question: Visionary or Fraud?

Musk has accomplished a lot that clearly makes him a visionary. It’s not even a question. In fact, him positing the question raises doubts on if he knows what either word actually means. A Resusable Rocket that takes off and lands vertically. (Not to mention cheaper than anyone else including NASA). A mass produced electric vehicle that people want to buy.  Those are actual ideas that he brought to fruition. Theranos is an actual fraud. A visionary idea of a cheap, fast, blood test that actually turned out to be bullshit. 

The rest of the post discussed business merits, which has nothing to do with being a visionary or a fraud. Elon Musk‚Äôs goal is not to be the best¬†businessman. It‚Äôs a necessary task in his ventures. Some are doing well and some are doing terrible. The whole point of Tesla was to advance the electirc car, and if ‚Äúmajors come out with their electric car¬†and crush him‚ÄĚ it would be just as satisfying to him because people would be buying electric cars.¬†

‚ÄúSÔĽŅtillÔĽŅ¬†waÔĽŅiting for SpaceÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ¬†X to accomplish something other than talk‚ÄĚ is just a laughable statement. I will let @RamjetFDO¬†wade into this one if he feels like it.¬†

 

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never paid that much attention.  its amazing for his lack of eloquence that he seems to be such a good fund-raiser and business leader.  dont know about his engineering chops though but the whole thai cave debacle is hilariously embarassing.   

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Visionary or fraud are not opposites of each other and a person could be both.

Whether Musk can only succeed using other people's money or not, the fact is that he does get things done.  I've seen plenty of people in my career that have great ideas that rarely get executed or they're executed poorly.  I've been guilty of that too.    Even if all of his ventures ultimately fail, its safe to say that he's pushed all of these concepts further and we will all benefit from it.

Between privatizing space, building a new car company, he also drilled a 2 mile transportation tunnel under a major US city within a year.  In some ways, I'm more impressed with the last item.  Most bosses would love to have a few Elon Musks working for them because they just make shit happen.  

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15 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Yeah my reaction to the title was SpaceX proves he's a visionary and no fraud.    Yeah, maybe some of his other stuff is overhyped or fails, but that's the case with every visionary.   

HIs hit to miss ratio is one of the all-time best.  Edison had 1000 failed attempts at the light bulb.

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10 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Yeah Tesla makes pretty electric cars, but that's an old concept, and when the majors roll out their models, he will be destroyed. His workers say he's a dick who puts them in danger all the time. Still waiting for Space X to accomplish something other than talk. He did nothing more than get underfoot in the Thailand cave rescue, and I've seen dudes light farts with more killing power than that fucking flamethrower of his. And what the blue hell is he doing messing around with crap like that to begin with, if he is Mr Future Buck Rogers Super Genius.

Hyperloop? Lol-loop more like. 

 

The dude is a fraud, and his collapse will make Enron's look like the failure of a barrio raspa stand. 

He fooled us. He made a bunch of money on a pretty simple Internet concept, he has a cool Bond-villain name, and that's about it. 

If you don't think SpaceX has accomplished anything, then your standards are impossible to achieve or you are an idiot. SpaceX did something all the old guard said was impossible, make a reusable rocket. Oh, and it basically single handedly kicked Russia out of the launch business, a business it was the predominant player in for the last 30 years. 

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2 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

I think he is visionary, but not a great business man. His ideas have merit, but his business are not money makers. There is nothing wrong with not making money, except for the fact that he is using billions of $$$$'s of other peoples money.

Add to the list
- Solar City (a failed solar roof company, that he saved by making it an losing investment for Tesla)
- The Boring Company, currently digging tunnels in LA, and soon to link Chicago downtown to O'Hare airport. Wait until those tunnels flood, or an earthquake hits LA
- "the hyperloop" still a concept, but the PT Barnum in Musk is promoting it

In some ways he is like Nikoli Tesla, so driven to have his ideas come to the market that he never made money at it. Tesla signed away his rights to Westinghouse so that AC would become the standard and that he beat Edison and DC current.
 

That effete ahole can't hold Tesla's jockstrap.

Space X is a good venture.  Tesla Motors is a joke.  They have a bigger market cap than Ford?!  Gonna be fun watching them crash.

Sadly, he was close to a great idea.  Become the lithium-ion battery supplier of choice, work with car companies to standardize quick charging, and work with gas stations, hotels, etc to install them.  In other words be the "Intel" inside of hybrid and electric vehicles.  Stay out of sight and do the hard work in the background.

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29 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

He made it cool to spend $100K on a car that can't drive 300 miles so there's that.

Definite visionary and most visionaries can be crazed dickheads.

few people need to drive 300 miles regularly.  Sure everyone does every once in a while but there are options for that.  My guess is that the average Tesla driver has another car that can be used for those needs.

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2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

few people need to drive 300 miles regularly.  Sure everyone does every once in a while but there are options for that.  My guess is that the average Tesla driver has another car that can be used for those needs.

That's true, but there are a whole lot of Tesla and full EV fanboys out there telling everyone they can that EVs will take over in 10-20 years and fossil-powered cars will be gone. That won't happen any time soon, never mind the fact that these "clean energy" (lol) EVs are powered largely by fossil fuels and that will continue for the near future.

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1 hour ago, Parliament said:

That effete ahole can't hold Tesla's jockstrap.

Space X is a good venture.  Tesla Motors is a joke.  They have a bigger market cap than Ford?!  Gonna be fun watching them crash.

Sadly, he was close to a great idea.  Become the lithium-ion battery supplier of choice, work with car companies to standardize quick charging, and work with gas stations, hotels, etc to install them.  In other words be the "Intel" inside of hybrid and electric vehicles.  Stay out of sight and do the hard work in the background.

in his defense, Ford fucking sucks soooo

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musk made electric cars cool.  bmw didn't.  nissan didn't.  mitsubishi sure as fuck didn't.   and for that, musk will always have a place as a visionary.  he may very well also be a fraud. those aren't mutually exclusive. 

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14 hours ago, wood said:

Subscribed. Where do I send my $9.95?

ETA: OBTW, you can put me in the camp that thinks he's a fraud re: Tesla & "clean energy" (lol) electric cars. Have for years. And got damn, I've put out more car fires than I can remember, & a lot of 'em were fully involved, but I've never seen a car burn up even remotely like these Teslas are burning up. The Tesla's are basically gone after their fires, and when you put out a normal car fire, it doesn't require a hazmat team to clean it up & it doesn't reignite later, esp not more than once, & esp not hours or days later. That's shit's just insane. 

This is all Teslas that have caught fire since 2013.  They've made ~350,000 cars. 

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/11/a-list-of-tesla-car-fires-since-2013/

I'd dial back the histrionics a few notches. I think everything is going to be ok.

3 hours ago, wood said:

That's true, but there are a whole lot of Tesla and full EV fanboys out there telling everyone they can that EVs will take over in 10-20 years and fossil-powered cars will be gone. That won't happen any time soon, never mind the fact that these "clean energy" (lol) EVs are powered largely by fossil fuels and that will continue for the near future.

Even if you charge an EV with coal produced electricity the amount of CO2 is less than if you use an ICE, but its pretty close.  If the electricity is from any other source the EV is way cleaner than the ICE.  Ignoring CO2 though, all the serious pollutants from car exhaust, NOx, ground level ozone, particulate, etc is overwhelming lower by using an EV.  Even the dirtiest power plants are exceedingly cleaner than an internal combustion engine on a per power output basis.  No one asserts "clean energy" is 100% clean and no impact whatsoever. 

He's annoying - he should stay off twitter.  He has ridiculous fan boys, they aren't too hard to ignore.   He sets absurd deadlines that he never hits.  Unless you are an investor I fail to see why this bothers anyone. 

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It's a Ponzi scheme of Big Ideas. The longer his existing projects lose money hand over fist, the faster he unveils some new Shiny Object, and investors ooh and aah, and he's off to the races again, burning through OPM.  

Tesla was supposed to funding all his other projects by now, but it's still hemorrhaging money, and he can never keep up with the production numbers he throws out there. He might this time with the latest model, but I read that he has pulled everybody in the company on to this model's line, making it impossible to fulfill the next model's numbers.   

Again, what the fuck is he doing selling shitty personal flamethrowers? That he wasted even 15 minutes on a stupid project like that is crazy. How did this get through board meetings? How many people signed off on that idiocy? Or if you are Musk, does anybody have the stones to tell you, "Hey, man, I think this is a stupid product to sell and not even very good setting shit on fire. Maybe you should focus on one of the other really rad ideas you've had before you sell a piece of crap like this, one that seems very likely to get you sued to Bolivia sooner rather than later."

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's a Ponzi scheme of Big Ideas. The longer his existing projects lose money hand over fist, the faster he unveils some new Shiny Object, and investors ooh and aah, and he's off to the races again, burning through OPM.  

Tesla was supposed to funding all his other projects by now, but it's still hemorrhaging money, and he can never keep up with the production numbers he throws out there. He might this time with the latest model, but I read that he has pulled everybody in the company on to this model's line, making it impossible to fulfill the next model's numbers.   

Again, what the fuck is he doing selling shitty personal flamethrowers? That he wasted even 15 minutes on a stupid project like that is crazy. How did this get through board meetings? How many people signed off on that idiocy? Or if you are Musk, does anybody have the stones to tell you, "Hey, man, I think this is a stupid product to sell and not even very good setting shit on fire. Maybe you should focus on one of the other really rad ideas you've had before you sell a piece of crap like this, one that seems very likely to get you sued to Bolivia sooner rather than later."

 

 

 

i think he hit a few home runs and then started to drink too much of his own koolaid

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26 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's a Ponzi scheme of Big Ideas. The longer his existing projects lose money hand over fist, the faster he unveils some new Shiny Object, and investors ooh and aah, and he's off to the races again, burning through OPM.  

Tesla was supposed to funding all his other projects by now, but it's still hemorrhaging money, and he can never keep up with the production numbers he throws out there. He might this time with the latest model, but I read that he has pulled everybody in the company on to this model's line, making it impossible to fulfill the next model's numbers.   

Again, what the fuck is he doing selling shitty personal flamethrowers? That he wasted even 15 minutes on a stupid project like that is crazy. How did this get through board meetings? How many people signed off on that idiocy? Or if you are Musk, does anybody have the stones to tell you, "Hey, man, I think this is a stupid product to sell and not even very good setting shit on fire. Maybe you should focus on one of the other really rad ideas you've had before you sell a piece of crap like this, one that seems very likely to get you sued to Bolivia sooner rather than later."

 

 

 

You are an idiot. The flame throwers were a marketing gimmick. You still haven't responded about your absurd claim on SpaceX. 

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I was told people would be orbiting the moon for shits and giggles this year. Um, nope. No new timetable set.

I was told an autonomous Tesla would have driven from coast to coast by now. Um, nope. 

Quote

‚ÄúWe could have done the coast-to-coast drive, but it would have required too much specialized code to effectively game it or make it somewhat brittle and that it would work for one particular route, but not the general solution. So I think we would be able to repeat it, but if it‚Äôs just not any other route, which is not really a true solution,‚ÄĚ Musk said.

(Coughbullshitcough)

I was told almost three years ago that Teslas would be up to 620 miles per charge by now. Nope. 

His Rainman-like fascination with the number 500,000  And where are those 500,000 Teslas per year?

Quote

. 

 

 

 

 

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by the way, tesla just hit the threshold for the US to start cutting the tax credit on EVs.  

 

and maybe theyre overlooking the europe market, since the supercharger network is ultra sparse there, and the cars are not a hit -- too large and/or expensive.  nissan-renault is owning that market, and bmw is putting huge investments in it as well 

 

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14 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You are an idiot. The flame throwers were a marketing gimmick. You still haven't responded about your absurd claim on SpaceX. 

If SpaceX is a really growing concern, and better at what it does than NASA, then he should focus on that, rather than conquering outer space, and flamethrowers, and electric cars, and hyperloops, and solar panels.

THERE ARE NO REAL LIFE TONY STARKS.

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1 hour ago, JimmyGlass said:

I'd dial back the histrionics a few notches. I think everything is going to be ok. 

What hystrionics?

Everything I mentioned relates to real differences between Tesla fires and fires in typical cars. I didn't say Teslas burn more often. I said that when they do, they tend to burn much, much hotter than other cars, to the point of consuming much of the bodywork, etc, unlike typical cars, and they're much harder to extinguish. From a firefighter's perspective, a burning Tesla is a much bigger problem than a typical car is, and that's just in terms of heat produced and how long it takes to cool them, completely ignoring the electrical concerns during extinguishment. 

Edited by wood
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28 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

If SpaceX is a really growing concern, and better at what it does than NASA, then he should focus on that, rather than conquering outer space, and flamethrowers, and electric cars, and hyperloops, and solar panels.

THERE ARE NO REAL LIFE TONY STARKS.

SpaceX owns the launch business and no competitor is close. It is its own business, it is not like it needs Elon to operate. The flamer throwers were a marketing gimmick, and a fucking successful one since not only did he get marketing out of it, it actually made a profit. Your posts are ridiculous and devoid of facts. Elon exaggerates. He is boastful and often misses on those boasts. But his ideas and businesses are also at the forefront of their industries. Tesla may not become a huge success (although I think it will be and is successful) but no one wanted to make electric cars before Tesla. No one wanted to make reusable rockets before SpaceX. Those are now both the future of their industries. Again, your opinion in this area is all emotion and no reason.   

edit: Also, NASA employs SpaceX. They are not competitors. You do realize that we (government and private companies) almost 100% relied on the Russians to launch anything until the Falcon rocket? SpaceX almost stole that business overnight. That business worth billions. You are completely ignorant on this topic. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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57 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I was told people would be orbiting the moon for shits and giggles this year. Um, nope. No new timetable set.

I was told an autonomous Tesla would have driven from coast to coast by now. Um, nope. 

(Coughbullshitcough)

I was told almost three years ago that Teslas would be up to 620 miles per charge by now. Nope. 

His Rainman-like fascination with the number 500,000  And where are those 500,000 Teslas per year?

. 

 

 

 

 

You see Tommy, to reach goals, you actually have to set goals. 

And It definitely sounds like he fucked your wife. 

 

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He needs to step away from Twitter and relinquish some control over Tesla to a more experienced CEO in that field. Also, he either has a culture of yes men in his company, people who are incompetent in the realm of deadline and time line reporting, or he's outright ignoring what his people are telling him is possible in the near future for what can be produced. Or, and this is where he can be both a visionary and a fraud, he is lying about what is possible to keep the company afloat until he can fix whatever is preventing him from meeting deadlines.

Either way, I think Tesla fails within the next 2 years. Space X will be his real winner, if they can get their costs figured out and the budget balanced. At some point, you have to set R&D aside and make money with the tech you are currently competent with so you can prove to shareholders and investors that you can actually run the business at hand, rather than just be an invention machine running purely on investment capital. While the reusable rockets are really cool and will be the future, show that you can make putting other people's stuff into orbit a profitable industry.

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1 hour ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

If SpaceX is a really growing concern, and better at what it does than NASA, then he should focus on that, rather than conquering outer space, and flamethrowers, and electric cars, and hyperloops, and solar panels.

THERE ARE NO REAL LIFE TONY STARKS.

Growing concern?  You mean going?

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He needs to step away from Twitter and relinquish some control over Tesla to a more experienced CEO in that field. Also, he either has a culture of yes men in his company, people who are incompetent in the realm of deadline and time line reporting, or he's outright ignoring what his people are telling him is possible in the near future for what can be produced. Or, and this is where he can be both a visionary and a fraud, he is lying about what is possible to keep the company afloat until he can fix whatever is preventing him from meeting deadlines.

Either way, I think Tesla fails within the next 2 years. Space X will be his real winner, if they can get their costs figured out and the budget balanced. At some point, you have to set R&D aside and make money with the tech you are currently competent with so you can prove to shareholders and investors that you can actually run the business at hand, rather than just be an invention machine running purely on investment capital. While the reusable rockets are really cool and will be the future, show that you can make putting other people's stuff into orbit a profitable industry.


What does a Tesla failure mean to you?

I could see a reorganization bankruptcy if they run out of cash. But that just means they wipe out the equity holders. Debt holders take a haircut, line up new financing for Tesla and the company continues to produce cars.

I don’t see Tesla shutting down and being liquidated any time soon.
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Lining up new financing may be tough when the equity and debt holders get wiped out. In a free market (ie. non-political) world, it means being at the mercy of corporate raiders who stymie innovation and take technology and assets and leave a shell of a company behind.  In other words, post bankruptcy Tesla may not be able to compete with the large automobile manufacturers. 

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9 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

He made it cool to spend $100K on a car that can't drive 300 miles so there's that.

Definite visionary and most visionaries can be crazed dickheads.

He realized, with the present technology, suburban commuters are the best match as electric car consumers and not urban core folks. He builds beautiful e-cars people want instead of being stuck in the auto industry's mindset about e-cars that gave us; Volt, Leaf, and Prius.  He pretty much destroyed all the naysayers' e-car stereotypes leaving them clinging desperately to range. Anyone that can buy a Tesla can buy a plane ticket.

Edited by ShaggyBevo RIP
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3 hours ago, Eastwood said:

He needs to step away from Twitter and relinquish some control over Tesla to a more experienced CEO in that field. Also, he either has a culture of yes men in his company, people who are incompetent in the realm of deadline and time line reporting, or he's outright ignoring what his people are telling him is possible in the near future for what can be produced. Or, and this is where he can be both a visionary and a fraud, he is lying about what is possible to keep the company afloat until he can fix whatever is preventing him from meeting deadlines.

While the reusable rockets are really cool and will be the future, show that you can make putting other people's stuff into orbit a profitable industry.

He certainly needs to step away from twitter. 

With respect to the deadlines... say it would take some most companies 10 years to design and make a new widget.  The CEO of some other company says he can do it in 2 years.  He ends up being really late and in the end it takes him five years.  You dipshits would be screaming about how incompetent this guy is because he was 3!!?>!?! years late getting the new product to market - meanwhile the competition is just starting early phase prototype testing after five years. 

By the time the S came out and was clearly a hit ALL major car companies were trying to make an entry level EV car.  All of them.  Chevy had been working on the Volt for 5+ years before that, and it came out and was a piece of shit.  Since the S came out the X and the 3 have been released.  The entry level version of the 3 isnt available yet, but it clearly will be before any of the competitors are ready.

This idea that because he misses his self imposed deadlines then that means he is an incompetent business man is stupid.  He did it faster and thus far better than anyone else has. 

Are you not aware that putting other people's stuff into orbit is already a profitable industry? And SpaceX is has the lowest prices AND the highest margin per launch of any company.  He  starts in 2002 or whatever with SpaceX and $100MM and in ~15 years has completely destroyed the market - most of which is run by highly subsidized government defense contractors.  And you think  he is a fraud because he is annoying on twitter?

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