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5 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

So Biden last night/today said his proof that the hospital destruction wasn’t from Israel but from Islamic Jihad (or whatever) wasn’t from the Israelis but from the Pentagon.  So, if true, the Pentagon and Israel are saying they have proof it wasn’t Israel and Hamas says it was and we have people on this thread believing Hamas because, why? I’m not saying Israel hasn’t done bad stuff ever but in this case it seems like they didn’t blow up the hospital and I notice everyone on this thread railing against them yesterday isn’t on this thread today saying, “my bad, guess it wasn’t them”.  Quite telling.

The vast majority of humans believe ANYTHING that confirms their priors, and will endlessly attempt to discount whatever goes against them.  

We are not built for this.

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2 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

  I don’t think the terrorist organization who butchers people needed to draw inspiration from Lauren Boebert to realize they can lie about something with the purpose of inspiring more terrorism. 

True.  They most likely drew that inspiration from the State that butchers them with our aid.

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38 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

So Biden last night/today said his proof that the hospital destruction wasn’t from Israel but from Islamic Jihad (or whatever) wasn’t from the Israelis but from the Pentagon.  So, if true, the Pentagon and Israel are saying they have proof it wasn’t Israel and Hamas says it was and we have people on this thread believing Hamas because, why? I’m not saying Israel hasn’t done bad stuff ever but in this case it seems like they didn’t blow up the hospital and I notice everyone on this thread railing against them yesterday isn’t on this thread today saying, “my bad, guess it wasn’t them”.  Quite telling.

 
ABC news correspondent with non-named U.S. officials. 

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And the NSC Spox also confirms it:

I can predict with near 100 percent certainty that the discourse will shift from “of course it was Israel” to “the U.S. and Israel are just as unreliable as Hamas, despite the vast delta in evidence.” And then to “it doesn’t matter who actually bombed it because Israel is responsible for everything ultimately.” 

It will likely happen on this thread. 

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1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And the NSC Spox also confirms it:

I can predict with near 100 percent certainty that the discourse will shift from “of course it was Israel” to “the U.S. and Israel are just as unreliable as Hamas, despite the vast delta in evidence.” And then to “it doesn’t matter who actually bombed it because Israel is responsible for everything ultimately.” 

It will likely happen on this thread. 

It already has.

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53 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The vast majority of humans believe ANYTHING that confirms their priors, and will endlessly attempt to discount whatever goes against them.  

We are not built for this.

The human race is reaching their Peter principle.

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2 hours ago, horn4life said:

The problem is you have American elected government officials that do not care at all what the truth is.  they have repeated lies over, and over, and over until now the GOP as a whole is the most misinformed group of voters probably since Hitler was elected.  So truth has taken a big fall from grace, because American politicians have proven that a lie is as good as the truth when sold repeatedly by people in power.  Hamas is in power.  So they say whatever, and this is reinforced again and again.  Just like here in the United States.

Sadly it was less than a decade ago when the truth really did matter in the US.  Now we are a lot more like the Middle East where you CHOOSE "your truth."

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

 

 

 

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Fuck.

I have been sorting my "feelings" on this for quite a while.  I tend to favor Israel while fully acknowledging their role in oppressing and harassing the occupied territories.

Therefore, I wanted this not to be true (IAF did it).  But I also acknowledge that there's a decent likelihood that it was true.

I am relieved that it is not true.  Also that the casualties appear to be far less than originally stated.  That's the best part of all.

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12 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

 

 

 

Goddammit.  Just opening themselves up for more shit.  Deserved in this case? Probably.  But fuck.

Also, it's not a goddam Baptist hospital, it's Anglican/Episcopal.

Dumbfucks.

Also, fuck your fucking "Democratic members of Congress" as if that is the view of all Democrats.  These two are special cases.    At least Omar said "reportedly."

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34 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

 

 

 

These congressional representatives are just pandering to the folks that elected them. If they didn’t believe these comments would land well back in their districts they wouldn’t say them. 
No different than Chip Roy’s tweets. Pander to their base. 

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1 hour ago, babysdaddy said:

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

 

 

 

Yikes.

You'd think that the average person, with what we know about war even in the best of non-disinformation times, you would wait until the facts are known to post something incendiary. Definitely as a politician, you should have that discretion if you want to be taken seriously (read: not the GQP).

33 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

These congressional representatives are just pandering to the folks that elected them. If they didn’t believe these comments would land well back in their districts they wouldn’t say them. 
No different than Chip Roy’s tweets. Pander to their base. 

That's so dark and cynical. I don't want to believe it. You are probably right.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fuck.

I have been sorting my "feelings" on this for quite a while.  I tend to favor Israel while fully acknowledging their role in oppressing and harassing the occupied territories.

Therefore, I wanted this not to be true (IAF did it).  But I also acknowledge that there's a decent likelihood that it was true.

I am relieved that it is not true.  Also that the casualties appear to be far less than originally stated.  That's the best part of all.

everything you said is 100%.

What's most infuriating is that this back and forth where Hamas in plain daylight massacres civilians with impunity and with malice aforethought is then coupled with accusations that Israel did the same thing when an accident happens due to Hamas poor military technology but the world goes apeshit blaming Israel. Israel takes time to investigate, proves it wasn't Israel, but the damage is done.

Then there is a rinse and repeat. 

This pattern is infuriating.

The conversation of peacetime oppression is a different question and yes Israel is not without blame.  Yes civilians are killed in war and Israel as with any nation engaged in war kills civilians but more often than not when Hamas speaks it is a to stoke fear or a lie to blame Israel and the world just keeps licking it up.

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Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

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5 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

Lost amidst all the talk of the ethics of retaliation is another aspect of this, which is that it appears the IDF is undermanned, under-equipped, and quite unable to put boots on the ground quickly as a future deterrent.  
 

I’m sure we have agreements to backstop them on supplies but your point is apt-how did you go through your munitions this quickly attacking a relatively small territory? 

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4 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

War is a great way to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich. It always has been. “Aid” is just the veneer.

Well, that answers the famous philosophical question of "War. Huh! Good God! What is it good for?"

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fuck.

I have been sorting my "feelings" on this for quite a while.  I tend to favor Israel while fully acknowledging their role in oppressing and harassing the occupied territories.

Therefore, I wanted this not to be true (IAF did it).  But I also acknowledge that there's a decent likelihood that it was true.

I am relieved that it is not true.  Also that the casualties appear to be far less than originally stated.  That's the best part of all.

Your approach was mine here, right down to the "tend to favor Israel, but also hold them culpable/responsible for feeding the beast over decades."

And yeah, I was in very much the "wait and see," mostly because the typical extreme shrill voices taking polar positions almost immediately. Let the dust settle...literally.  And in the light of day....it is quite apparent that was not a JDAM or similar strike, and it's also apparent that it didn't hit "the hospital," and that the casualty count is much lower than initial claims -- any lesser loss of innocent lives is a plus.

All of that said, is there an ongoing risk that Israel will (mistakenly or even on purpose) hit a target full of civilians?  Yep.  Which is why it is in humanity's interest to start working to ratchet shit down.

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29 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

This is the thought that keeps coming up when I hear about the House needing to open so it can pass an aid package for Israel.  Uh what is the rush to send them aid?  The Executive has already signaled broad diplomatic support.

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2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

My very limited understanding is for more munitions, especially if this is a prolonged and/or wider engagement. IOW, help Israel not run out of ammo.

 

@troph

Quote

The conversation of peacetime oppression is a different question and yes Israel is not without blame.  Yes civilians are killed in war and Israel as with any nation engaged in war kills civilians but more often than not when Hamas speaks it is a to stoke fear or a lie to blame Israel and the world just keeps licking it up.

I get where you're coming from and largely agree. But we must also recognize there are those IN POWER who lie and stoke fear as well. Those voices are not simply outliers. Netanyahu has formed a government with them, and they are vehement radicals.

How does one find common ground with these people if you're a Palestinian who only seeks peace and equal rights as an Israeli citizen, much less a Palestinian in either Gaza or the West Bank and only want self-determination?

 

Itamar Ben Gvir, head of the Jewish Power Party and head of Domestic Police:

Quote

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66614459

The state department said it strongly condemned the "inflammatory comments" and "all racist rhetoric".

His remarks on Israeli TV sparked a storm of criticism online.

*****

Mr Ben Gvir leads the ultranationalist Otzma Yehudit or "Jewish Power" party which espouses racist, anti-Arab policies. He has previous convictions for inciting racism and supporting terrorism.

In December he was made a top minister by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who gave him a seat in his security cabinet and put him in charge of the domestic police, as well as Israel's militarised border police force that operates in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

*****

"My right, my wife's, my children's, to roam the roads of Judea and Samaria are more important than the right of movement of the Arabs," said Mr Ben Gvir, using a biblical term for the West Bank.

He then addressed Mohammad Magadli, an Arab Israeli journalist in the studio, saying: "Sorry Mohammad, but this is the reality, that's the truth. My right for life comes before their right to movement."

 

 

Quote

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-religion-jerusalem-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-189ef3fc8c82d7163c1339e64bb1e40f

The awarding of the sensitive role to Ben-Gvir raises concerns of a further escalation in Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Ben-Gvir and his allies hope to grant immunity to Israeli soldiers who shoot at Palestinians, deport rival lawmakers and impose the death penalty on Palestinians convicted of attacks on Jews.

Ben-Gvir is the disciple of a racist rabbi, Meir Kahane, who was banned from Parliament and whose Kach party was branded a terrorist group by the United States before he was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Ahead of Israel’s Nov. 1 election, Ben-Gvir grabbed headlines for his anti-Palestinian speeches and stunts, including brandishing a pistol and encouraging police to open fire on Palestinian stone-throwers in a tense Jerusalem neighborhood.

Before becoming a lawyer and entering politics, he was convicted of offenses that include inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization.

 

 

Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionist party, Finance Minister

Quote

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-lawmaker-bezalel-smotrich-declares-himself-his-family-real-palestinians/

Far-right lawmaker Bezalel Smotrich said Sunday that the Palestinian people were “an invention” from the last century and that people like himself and his grandparents were the “real Palestinians.”

Speaking in Paris at a private memorial service for prominent right-wing Likud activist and Jewish Agency board member Jacques Kupfer, who passed away after a long battle with cancer in 2021, Smotrich said there was “no such thing as Palestinians because there’s no such thing as the Palestinian people,” a comment that was met with applause and cheers from attendees, as seen in a video from the event posted online.

******

Smotrich was speaking from a podium that featured a map of “Greater Israel” that included the territory of modern-day Jordan, in accordance with hardline aspirations by some early Zionist groups.

Smotrich has a history of making inflammatory statements against Palestinians, Arab citizens of Israel, non-Orthodox Jews, and the LGBTQ community including once declaring himself a “proud homophobe.” In 2021, he said David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, should have “finished the job” and kicked all Arabs out of the country when it was founded. Earlier that same year, he said members of Israel’s Arab minority communities were citizens “for now at least.”

 

 

Just look at what he's said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Anti-Arab_and_anti-Palestinian_sentiment

 

This is in no way excusing anything that Hamas has done, but I feel like we're giving Israel's leadership a free pass with a lot of this stuff. They're terrible, awful people. Who are reasonable Palestinians supposed to negotiate with?

 

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19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Your approach was mine here, right down to the "tend to favor Israel, but also hold them culpable/responsible for feeding the beast over decades."

And yeah, I was in very much the "wait and see," mostly because the typical extreme shrill voices taking polar positions almost immediately. Let the dust settle...literally.  And in the light of day....it is quite apparent that was not a JDAM or similar strike, and it's also apparent that it didn't hit "the hospital," and that the casualty count is much lower than initial claims -- any lesser loss of innocent lives is a plus.

All of that said, is there an ongoing risk that Israel will (mistakenly or even on purpose) hit a target full of civilians?  Yep.  Which is why it is in humanity's interest to start working to ratchet shit down.

only quibble - I don't think civilians are targeted by strikes. I think civilians are always killed in war, even moreso in a densely populated urban area, even moreso when the enemy is a terrorist organization that hides among civilians, even moreso when political leadership does the opposite of work to protect the welfware of its population and instead asks them to be targets by staying, even moreso when their military makes mistakes and blames the otherside.

I think Israel targeting civilians in strikes comes (if at all) after all of those other factors are dealth with squarely and without dismissing the severity of those causes.

Now, cutting off utilities, fuel, water, etc.? Might not be the best, I dunno.

Occupying/settling west bank terrority? Might not be the best.

Is there blame for Israel, yes.

But I see Hamas as the primary, superseding and intervening cause of civilian casualties on both sides until it's clearly proven that Israel is targeting civilians purposefully and without any real military objective. Noting that there is no confusion or ambiguity over the fact that Hamas does exactly that.

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1 minute ago, troph said:

only quibble - I don't think civilians are targeted by strikes.

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

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@bolverk I don't think peace is possible.  One side is currently radicalized now (Israel) and the otherside is a terrorist organization that will never be satisfied.  Asking Israel to make peace is not fair, it's not possible, it's a fucking mess.  I fully recognize Israel has helped create the problem and that they don't make it easier by being far right but the otherside, at least consistent I guess (sarcasm intended), is unwavering in their commitment to not strike a deal. Now, toss Hezbollah and Hamas out the fucking window and have a real and legitimate Gazan/Palestinian majority that wants peace and can enforce it then ok that's different. never been there, don't ever see it happening.

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

@bolverk I don't think peace is possible.  One side is currently radicalized now (Israel) and the otherside is a terrorist organization that will never be satisfied.  Asking Israel to make peace is not fair, it's not possible, it's a fucking mess.  I fully recognize Israel has helped create the problem and that they don't make it easier by being far right but the otherside, at least consistent I guess (sarcasm intended), is unwavering in their commitment to not strike a deal. Now, toss Hezbollah and Hamas out the fucking window and have a real and legitimate Gazan/Palestinian majority that wants peace and can enforce it then ok that's different. never been there, don't ever see it happening.

Israel will never have peace as long as its policy is to oppress Palestinians in the territories.

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

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14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Israel will never have peace as long as its policy is to oppress Palestinians in the territories.

Palestinians will never have peace as long as terrorist organizations murder Israeli civilians in Israel.

hence impossible.

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4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

Similarly you can't take the terrorists word for it, because they are terrorists who rape and behead babies (e.g. less than optimal credibility rating). So then you get into this situation where it's hard to know the actual, factual realities until a few hours to few days later. Hence the conversation we were having last week around atrocity propaganda and why it is wise to wait a beat before synthesizing data and forming judgments around it. Make sure data in is good. This is why it's very bad when politicians just shoot from the hip, it's confirmation bias.

1 minute ago, troph said:

Palestinians will never have peace as long as terrorist organizations murder Israeli civilians in Israel.

hence impossible.

You guys just illustrated a great example of the doom loop or vicious circle.

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29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

I'm not excusing west bank behavior, I've said as much and Israel really should simply be required to vacate, move and get out. Unfortunately, it's a bit more of a quagmire and that is a major factor in this whole thing. it's a fucking mess and Israel has significant culpability there. But we all need to recognize that vacating the West Bank won't bring peace.

What I'm talking specifically talking about war time engagements with Hamas and Hezbollah in Gaza and Lebanon.  Here specifically Hamas. The pattern is terrorists do terrorist things, then civilians are killed, and terrorists scream it was Israel, then it's proven otherwise.  I do not know of a situation in these specific war time engagements where are missiles being fired intentionally without any legitimate military target at civilians.

My personal take on this is that many ignore the fact that no matter what Israel does, peace is not achievable. This is like sibling rivalry where the parents always tell the older brother to behave and the younger brother gets to sabotage and be subversive and any time the older brother does anything other than take it the older brother gets in trouble. There is not one fucking thing Israel can do to bring peace other than dissolve its government, pack up and leave completely. Why some people keep one siding this as Israel's fault and fail to see that peace is impossible no matter what they do is the part that annoys the most.

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2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The real tragedy of the times we live is that we believe more than we know, and what we believe is often invulnerable to disproof.

I remember reading a few months ago that one of the founders of the LLM and generative AI said that the risk of Artificial Intelligence won't gain sentience and take over mankind like in horror movies.

The risk is it will drive human beings insane. Your summary of the main problem we face reminds me of that. We are collectively going insane in the sense of what we believe and perceive is both real and different from one man to another.

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39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

My very limited understanding is for more munitions, especially if this is a prolonged and/or wider engagement. IOW, help Israel not run out of ammo.

 

@troph

I get where you're coming from and largely agree. But we must also recognize there are those IN POWER who lie and stoke fear as well. Those voices are not simply outliers. Netanyahu has formed a government with them, and they are vehement radicals.

How does one find common ground with these people if you're a Palestinian who only seeks peace and equal rights as an Israeli citizen, much less a Palestinian in either Gaza or the West Bank and only want self-determination?

 

Itamar Ben Gvir, head of the Jewish Power Party and head of Domestic Police:

 

 

Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionist party, Finance Minister

 

Just look at what he's said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Anti-Arab_and_anti-Palestinian_sentiment

 

This is in no way excusing anything that Hamas has done, but I feel like we're giving Israel's leadership a free pass with a lot of this stuff. They're terrible, awful people. Who are reasonable Palestinians supposed to negotiate with?

 

More on Ben-Gvir:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/itamar-ben-gvir-israels-minister-of-chaos

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3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I remember reading a few months ago that one of the founders of the LLM and generative AI said that the risk of Artificial Intelligence won't gain sentience and take over mankind like in horror movies.

The risk is it will drive human beings insane. Your summary of the main problem we face reminds me of that. We are collectively going insane in the sense of what we believe and perceive is both real and different from one man to another.

Best to get your Lexipro script filled now before there’s a run on the already strained healthcare system and the depression / anxiety you’re wrestling with causes you to end it all before you can see anyone.

/kidding 

…. well, maybe not.

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Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but I don't really get all the hand-wringing about the hospital. 

Israel is about to go into Gaza like the USMC did retaking Fallujah and there's going to be a lot more civilian casualties (and I'm not judging, I think it's impossible to prevent them). 

That said, if any possible Israeli culpability has an upside it's that it should quiet the Northwest Hills mom's current social media blitz of "If you're not with Israel you're against us."  Wait, aren't ya'll Americans?

 

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

A state is better able to change policy. Israel should do that.

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

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4 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I notice everyone on this thread railing against them yesterday isn’t on this thread today saying, “my bad, guess it wasn’t them”.  Quite telling.

Fair post, Beantown. I believed it was the Israelis. Now the evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn't change my position on Israel's attack on Gaza anymore than the question of beheaded babies changed my disposition towards the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli citizens.

"Hey, we blockaded a huge civilian popuation, used high explosives to bombard them, and make no sign of concern about it, but we didn't blow up that hospital!"

"Hey, we sprayed machine gun fire at civilians, executed families in their homes, raped everything in sight, and took captives, but we didn't chop the heads off any babies!"

 

I deplore Biden's visit to that bloodthirsty government in Israel. I despise that we clearly don't see the life of a Palestinian civilian as valauble as an Israeli's. I'm embarrassed that everyone so easily falls into the tired narative that Israel is always on the verge of being destroyed. 

I want nothing to do with any of these parties other than whatever humanitarian things we can do. I don't see the Israelis as bad people nor do I see that in the Palestinians. Likud and Hamas are awful entities harming their own people and those peoples near them.

I again wonder if Israel holds some of our horrible secrets such as dirty work Mossad may have done for us. Israel is not a state in the union.

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2 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

but you're willing to believe that one it seems.  despite from what i can see, no proof whatsoever this took place.  
 

I was implying that Hamas definitely beheaded at least a baby or two, not necessarily the "50 headless babies found in shallow mass grave" copypasta that was going around. But sure fine, if it makes you feel better, strike that descriptor from the record and it's place add "ruthlessly and joyfully kills old senior citizens" and the point still remains and stands.

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7 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but I don't really get all the hand-wringing about the hospital. 

Israel is about to go into Gaza like the USMC did retaking Fallujah and there's going to be a lot more civilian casualties (and I'm not judging, I think it's impossible to prevent them). 

That said, if any possible Israeli culpability has an upside it's that it should quiet the Northwest Hills mom's current social media blitz of "If you're not with Israel you're against us."  Wait, aren't ya'll Americans?

 

I think it's very much like Fallujah, that's my point, and Israel isn't picking soft targets for missiles like Hamas does for murder and kidnapping.

btw, I have a few NWH mom's in my insta and I can't deal. I had to like a few posts due to friendships, but I'm now avoiding insta so I don't have to see that shit.

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Fair post, Beantown. I believed it was the Israelis. Now the evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn't change my position on Israel's attack on Gaza anymore than the question of beheaded babies changed my disposition towards the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli citizens.

"Hey, we blockaded a huge civilian popuation, used high explosives to bombard them, and make no sign of concern about it, but we didn't blow up that hospital!"

"Hey, we sprayed machine gun fire at civilians, executed families in their homes, raped everything in sight, and took captives, but we didn't chop the heads off any babies!"

 

I deplore Biden's visit to that bloodthirsty government in Israel. I despise that we clearly don't see the life of a Palestinian civilian as valauble as an Israeli's. I'm embarrassed that everyone so easily falls into the tired narative that Israel is always on the verge of being destroyed. 

I want nothing to do with any of these parties other than whatever humanitarian things we can do. I don't see the Israelis as bad people nor do I see that in the Palestinians. Likud and Hamas are awful entities harming their own people and those peoples near them.

I again wonder if Israel holds some of our horrible secrets such as dirty work Mossad may have done for us. Israel is not a state in the union.

this is an entirely fair position.

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1 minute ago, troph said:

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

It is impossible when an entire side of the world doesn't acknowledge what has actually be going on for a long time.

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3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Fair post, Beantown. I believed it was the Israelis. Now the evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn't change my position on Israel's attack on Gaza anymore than the question of beheaded babies changed my disposition towards the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli citizens.

"Hey, we blockaded a huge civilian popuation, used high explosives to bombard them, and make no sign of concern about it, but we didn't blow up that hospital!"

"Hey, we sprayed machine gun fire at civilians, executed families in their homes, raped everything in sight, and took captives, but we didn't chop the heads off any babies!"

 

I deplore Biden's visit to that bloodthirsty government in Israel. I despise that we clearly don't see the life of a Palestinian civilian as valauble as an Israeli's. I'm embarrassed that everyone so easily falls into the tired narative that Israel is always on the verge of being destroyed. 

I want nothing to do with any of these parties other than whatever humanitarian things we can do. I don't see the Israelis as bad people nor do I see that in the Palestinians. Likud and Hamas are awful entities harming their own people and those peoples near them.

I again wonder if Israel holds some of our horrible secrets such as dirty work Mossad may have done for us. Israel is not a state in the union.

And what do you feel about a terrorist organization who tries to spin their own error and literal self-inflicting wound and blaming the counterparty through lies and manipulation? They are atrocity propaganda'ing in order to whip up emotions but the worst part it is by their own hand.

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5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But you sure as fuck jumped on board IMMEDIATELY with the Hamas version of the story.  And we fucking KNOW that Hamas has unclean hands -- for fuck's sake, some of the Israeli civilian blood from 10 days ago is barely dry. 

Dude.  Just....dude.  Remove the log from your own eye, all that shit.  That you unironically wrote what I bolded is fucking embarassing.

This you?

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

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Just now, troph said:

btw, I have a few NWH mom's in my insta and I can't deal.

Duh.  Follow their IG, but you should only look at their posts that feature them and their friends in swimsuits around the pool having daytime margaritas.  Do I have to explain how to do EVERYTHING to y'all?

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3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I was implying that Hamas definitely beheaded at least a baby or two, not necessarily the "50 headless babies found in shallow mass grave" copypasta that was going around. But sure fine, if it makes you feel better, strike that descriptor from the record and it's place add "ruthlessly and joyfully kills old senior citizens" and the point still remains and stands.

So you still want to spread some 'they are all subhuman baby killers' while getting in the 'we should be cautious with what we believe' bit.  Allrighty, then.

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3 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

So you still want to spread some 'they are all subhuman baby killers' while getting in the 'we should be cautious with what we believe' bit.  Allrighty, then.

I guess I'm confused by your question. Hamas the terrorist organization have engaged in subhuman acts, at LEAST as recently as, oh I don't know, 10 days ago at this point?

But yes, in this age of digital disruption and disinformation, we should be cautious with what we immediately believe as factual. For sure. At a minimum we should "trust, but verify".

Is that such a crazy position to take that I get the Jim Carrey dismiss?

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