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Posted
It's worth pointing out that Jesus Himself prayed for the impending crucifixion to be avoided if there was any other way, followed by "nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 36: 39).  You know He knew the answer, but he prayed it anyway.  Prayer is nowhere near a free hall pass out of hard times.  It's more of a way through hard times.

I couldn’t imagine praying that, knowing the situation. I mean, it was hard enough to pray something similar when my grandmother was sick before she passed away. But knowing the hell on Earth he was about to go through, and then the literal hell he had to deal with.
Posted
20 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The bold is where it falls apart for me and I think has it backward. You say that it makes sense if you are a believer, but the question in my mind is what objective basis is there to believe this particular version of religion? Most religious people abide by the religion they were born into and learned from birth. Where it really started to fall apart for me was the question as to why I was supposed to believe that Catholicism was correct and everyone else was wrong, especially when it comes to the billions of people who were raised non Christian like Judaism and Islam, and even moreso for non Abrahamic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There is simply no rational basis to believe that one is correct over another. I have since leaned more into religious study as a historical issue, including its role in shaping society and culture, and am convinced it has done more harm than good overall. In today's America, it's not even close considering how many religious people are full of hatred and vitriol for fellow humans which is the complete opposite of how I learned the teachings of Jesus which objectively, on the whole, is pretty good, love they neighbor, welcome the stranger, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. 

This is where I am. I was raised in the Episcopalian church which admittedly is more tolerant than many Christian sects, but I can’t abide by a view that “our interpretation is right, and all of you sinners are wrong.” 

It’s all made up mumbo jumbo that fits the narrative of those “witnessing” it and using it as an excuse to commit genocide.

I’d love someone to give me a rational explanation of why this is wrong. 

Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The bold is where it falls apart for me and I think has it backward. You say that it makes sense if you are a believer, but the question in my mind is what objective basis is there to believe this particular version of religion? Most religious people abide by the religion they were born into and learned from birth. Where it really started to fall apart for me was the question as to why I was supposed to believe that Catholicism was correct and everyone else was wrong, especially when it comes to the billions of people who were raised non Christian like Judaism and Islam, and even moreso for non Abrahamic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There is simply no rational basis to believe that one is correct over another. I have since leaned more into religious study as a historical issue, including its role in shaping society and culture, and am convinced it has done more harm than good overall. In today's America, it's not even close considering how many religious people are full of hatred and vitriol for fellow humans which is the complete opposite of how I learned the teachings of Jesus which objectively, on the whole, is pretty good, love they neighbor, welcome the stranger, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. 

The following is merely my opinion, so take it for what it is, but I think there is no objective basis to believe. I believe it is something, a spiritual experience that is bestowed upon you, that we actually had little-to-no part in creating or receiving. It's why I think Paul says, "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." It's a psychic experience.

With respect to religion, it's difficult, because religions are man-made constructs and anything formed by and with and of man will be a frail imitation of God, and fraught with man's inner evil nature. Religion, as it was originally conceived in Exodus and through the wandering of the desert, was well-intentioned, but the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. And then we have what I think you allude to, the evil of man who would use religion as a cudgel for social and hierarchal power-- the whole "opiate of the masses" aspect of religion in the hands of the drug dealers.

To that end, is there any "right" religion? Probably not. There is, to my belief of things, a triunal God consisting of YAHWEH, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit, and there is a living and breathing doctrine for how to be in right relationship with God, chock full of promises-- promises of hope and promises of consequences.

But what does any of this mean for when God returns, when Jesus returns with his double-edge sword in a picture that is completely opposite of what most people would think, as the Western world has superficially condensed his nature to the hippiefication and one-sidedness of his time as Godman on earth (and failed to point to the scripture's description of when he returns to mete out justice), as it pertains to other religions?

I actually think there is scripture that points to the possibility of those who are missing the mark on earth, being given a final chance to have eyes to see and ears to hear. I don't quite buy the pluralism argument put forth by the blindman and the elephant parable, but it's similiarly related, I think.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted (edited)

The right attitude makes all the difference.  My denomination of choice (Church of Christ) is historically very well known as being that very sort of judge-y "We're right and you are wrong" type of attitude - and don't think for a second there aren't still loads of those out there (both individuals and congregations).  However, I once was in a class where someone asked about that very issue about being "right or wrong" on salvation issues.  I think there is a line in the sand somewhere, and only God knows where that line is, but everyone sins on the reg and grace is the only reason we have a chance.  Grace covers all kinds of sins if your heart is right, including the "sin" of not getting every little detail just right.  Again, no one knows how much is too much, so the goal should be to be across the line as little as possible and grace will take care of the screw-ups.

Edited by SurlyGator
Posted
17 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

I personally feel that there are very few if any churches out there that aren't doing something wrong, whether that be doctrinal, or attitudinal.  The best advice I would give anyone is to go back to the source as much as possible.  For me as a Christian, that would be the New Testament first century church, and the example that is provided in those books.  Do what they did, don't do what they didn't do, and focus on living a biblical mindset every day.  If you find that the denomination you are currently attending strays too far away from that example for your comfort level after learning things for yourself, maybe it's time to shop for a new flavor.

This is good advice for the Christian believer. If you aren't a Christian believer, as we are discussing today with friends on this page and the last, not sure this helps them in their way of thinking at all.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

An honest prayer I've heard is not "Please Lord take this from me" but rather, "Please Lord give me the strength to endure this".

But isn't that a distinction without a difference?  Either way, you are asking God to intercede.  Where is the line that God can help?  They can change the mind but not the body?

Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The bold is where it falls apart for me and I think has it backward. You say that it makes sense if you are a believer, but the question in my mind is what objective basis is there to believe this particular version of religion? Most religious people abide by the religion they were born into and learned from birth. Where it really started to fall apart for me was the question as to why I was supposed to believe that Catholicism was correct and everyone else was wrong, especially when it comes to the billions of people who were raised non Christian like Judaism and Islam, and even moreso for non Abrahamic religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. There is simply no rational basis to believe that one is correct over another. I have since leaned more into religious study as a historical issue, including its role in shaping society and culture, and am convinced it has done more harm than good overall. In today's America, it's not even close considering how many religious people are full of hatred and vitriol for fellow humans which is the complete opposite of how I learned the teachings of Jesus which objectively, on the whole, is pretty good, love they neighbor, welcome the stranger, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. 

Where it's really falling apart for you is that you're trying to ascribe rationality to something that is entirely based on faith. Those two things, by their own definitions, are diametrically opposed. 

Where it falls apart for me was the concept that people could live a good life and still go to hell because they didn't believe the right way, or at all. Or that an all knowing God wouldn't forgive those people simply because they were born in the wrong part of the world and weren't exposed to the "right" religion, yet pretty much all the world's religions all say some version of "If you're not worshipping OUR way, you're going to hell." Maybe not Judaism, I'm not at all versed. But y'all get the point. The next step for me was, "If that truly IS the mandate of an all knowing God, then what kind of God is he truly?" I find it unlikely a divine omnipotence would behave accordingly, and if so he can fuck off.

Therefore I find it much more likely no one here has it even close to right, and it's much more statistically likely this is a bunch of made up nonsense no different than the Greek Gods or worshipping the sun and stars. Or the message was corrupted by the prophets spreading the word and we're doing little right, or there simply isn't any God. Humans, historically, have to create something to explain what they don't understand or can't/don't want to comprehend. 

Which is why I vacillate between agnostic and atheistic most days. Which becomes easier and easier as I continue to witness the cruelty of pretty much every church out there, these days. 

Edited by SydneyCarton
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Posted

I always like the story about St. Anthony of the desert where he went to a cave and was killed by demons.  His followers recovered his body and he was brought back to life.  He panicked and asked God where was He during the assault and God responded:

Quote

I was here but I would see and abide to see thy battle, and because thou hast mainly fought and well maintained thy battle, I shall make thy name to be spread through all the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_the_Great

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Stringer said:

But isn't that a distinction without a difference?  Either way, you are asking God to intercede.  Where is the line that God can help?  They can change the mind but not the body?

Good question. To be very clear, I think prayer can ask God to intercede. Matthew 7:9-11 says, 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

But I also think it goes to the heart of the ask. God isn't a genie.

Posted
1 hour ago, SurlyGator said:

I personally feel that there are very few if any churches out there that aren't doing something wrong, whether that be doctrinal, or attitudinal.  The best advice I would give anyone is to go back to the source as much as possible.  For me as a Christian, that would be the New Testament first century church, and the example that is provided in those books.  Do what they did, don't do what they didn't do, and focus on living a biblical mindset every day.  If you find that the denomination you are currently attending strays too far away from that example for your comfort level after learning things for yourself, maybe it's time to shop for a new flavor.

This is how you end up with Christian primitivism nonsense. 

Posted
1 hour ago, SurlyGator said:

The best advice I would give anyone is to go back to the source as much as possible.  For me as a Christian, that would be the New Testament first century church, and the example that is provided in those books.  Do what they did

Fabricate increasingly detailed fictional biographies about an allegorical character, which will be widely misinterpreted to the world’s great detriment for the ensuing two millennia and counting?

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Posted
1 hour ago, seven said:

I agree. I have been an atheist since grade school and am also dealing with a terminal cancer diagnosis. You get A LOT of people telling you that they are praying for you. I always just thank them and continue on because I know that's just their way of lending support. In one of the more memorable instances I was on the waitlist for a surgery while admitted to the hospital. I had spent a day in pain and a spot was finally open at like 2am. The next day the nurse that had cared for me the previous day told me he prayed for me that night that I'd be able to get the surgery quickly and relieve the pain. The thoughtfulness and empathy impacted me greatly even though I have no belief of that prayer doing anything. 

Yeah, as an atheist, I tend to think the same way. I never shit on people sincerely offering prayer even though I don't believe in its impact because it usually demonstrates that they actually care.

Posted
19 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Good for you. I know a couple Christians here who do really walk the walk. They study, they serve in the community A LOT, they live good lives, raise good children. You sound similar to them. 
 

that being said, if you do think Ed Young had questionable business practices, why did you feel the need to defend the guy on this thread initially? Shouldn’t shady business practices be a black mark for a preacher?

In my book preachers shouldn’t have business practices of any kind. 

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Posted
18 minutes ago, SurlyGator said:

The right attitude makes all the difference.  My denomination of choice (Church of Christ) is historically very well known as being that very sort of judge-y "We're right and you are wrong" type of attitude - and don't think for a second there aren't still loads of those out there (both individuals and congregations).  However, I once was in a class where someone asked about that very issue about being "right or wrong" on salvation issues.  I think there is a line in the sand somewhere, and only God knows where that line is, but everyone sins on the reg and grace is the only reason we have a chance.  Grace covers all kinds of sins if your heart is right, including the "sin" of not getting every little detail just right.  Again, no one knows how much is too much, so the goal should be to be across the line as little as possible and grace will take care of the screw-ups.

Or…no eternal being has his/her finger on the scale, and we have the ability to be good and moral people (while recognizing we all sin and nobody is perfect) without an invisible judge to decide whether we are good enough through “grace”. 

Posted

All the intercessional prayer bullshit is just that: bullshit.
I prayed for my kid to survive, and he did.
You prayed for your kid to survive, and she was swept away to her death.
I guess I’m a better pray-er than you. Or God loves me more than you. Or god works in mysterious ways. Or any number of utter fucking cop outs.
If god decided to “call all these kids home,” fuck your god. I choose anyone who fights against such a “god,” so “team Satan” for me.
If god says “Brisket’s prayer was better, so his kid lives, but you didn’t have enough prayer warriors on your side, so your kid dies,” fuck that god all the way to hell.
The “god” created by modern Christianity is a genuinely evil construct, and the world’s greatest enabler of human evil.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SurlyGator said:

The right attitude makes all the difference.  My denomination of choice (Church of Christ) is historically very well known as being that very sort of judge-y "We're right and you are wrong" type of attitude - and don't think for a second there aren't still loads of those out there (both individuals and congregations).  However, I once was in a class where someone asked about that very issue about being "right or wrong" on salvation issues.  I think there is a line in the sand somewhere, and only God knows where that line is, but everyone sins on the reg and grace is the only reason we have a chance.  Grace covers all kinds of sins if your heart is right, including the "sin" of not getting every little detail just right.  Again, no one knows how much is too much, so the goal should be to be across the line as little as possible and grace will take care of the screw-ups.

Like you, I have come out the Church of Christ tradition, which is exceedingly focused on doctrinal orthodoxy derived from reasoning and rational examination using New Testament scripture as a proof text.  The focus has always been on gaining certainty of God's will and God's plan, which sadly has left very little room for faith and grace.

I have not abandoned the CoC and still attend regularly in an effort to be an instrument for change. 

My faith journey over the past 15 years has led me towards the realization that the Bible is a multi-vocal collection of stories and writings documenting God-seeking people's experiences with God and the truths (their truths) that they took from those experiences.  Realizing that the Bible is multi-vocal and not a word-for-word dictation from the mouth of God (something it never actually claims) has been exceptionally freeing for me which has challenged, yet ultimately deepened my faith.

I find that I don't really sweat the details and now have very simple filters now for whether or not I accept a particular view or reading of scripture.  What are the manifest fruits of this interpretation, and does it prevent, hinder, or otherwise get in the way of me or another person loving God and others?

I believe in Jesus and the saving power of his sacrifice.  I believe in the power of Jesus' blood and the nature of God being love so strongly that I find myself drawn to belief in universal salvation.  To me, being a Christian means that I choose to live in response to that sacrifice by loving God and loving others as Jesus loves me.  

I believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, all religions, all peoples, and the entirety of creation are all redeemed and reconciled to God through the power of Christ's blood.  I believe that the Spirit leads other cultures and traditions towards loving God and love others within their culture and tradition.  People, cultures, and traditions will get it wrong along the way - we always do.  But there's something in all of us that nudges towards reverence for something more than ourselves and to live in peace and harmony with those around us. 

 

1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

Good question. To be very clear, I think prayer can ask God to intercede. Matthew 7:9-11 says, 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

But I also think it goes to the heart of the ask. God isn't a genie.

I came across the theological concept of amipotence a couple of years ago, and I find it very compelling.  It flows from an acceptance that the defining characteristic of God's entire being is love.  And from that flows the idea that perfect love is perfectly uncontrolling.  Therefore God's perfect love for His entire creation constrains Him from acting in a controlling manner upon His creation.  Human free will and the physical laws of the universe are allowed to proceed without interference to their own conclusions.

Prayer provides one path of connection to God's perfect love, and the true power of God's love is the peace and acceptance we receive while in relationship with Him.  That time of connection can calm our frazzled nerves, ease or at least provide a limitless outlet for the pain of our broken hearts, unlock our intuition about a problem we are dealing with, or release the unknown mechanisms of placebo or some other type of holistic healing.  

Edited by Guadaloopy
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Posted
1 minute ago, Guadaloopy said:

Like you, I have come out the Church of Christ tradition, which is exceedingly focused on doctrinal orthodoxy derived from reasoning and rational examination using New Testament scripture as a proof text.  The focus has always been on gaining certainty of God's will and God's plan, which sadly has left very little room for faith and grace.

I have not abandoned the CoC and still attend regularly in an effort to be an instrument for change. 

My faith journey over the past 15 years has led me towards the realization that the Bible is a multi-vocal collection of stories and writings documenting God-seeking people's experiences with God and the truths (their truths) that they took from those experiences.  Realizing that the Bible is multi-vocal and not a word-for-word from dictation from the mouth of God (something it never actually claims) has been exceptionally freeing for me which has challenged, yet ultimately deepened my faith.

I find that I don't really sweat the details and now have very simple filters now for whether or not I accept a particular view or reading of scripture.  What are the manifest fruits of this interpretation, and does it prevent, hinder, or otherwise get in the way of me or another person loving God and others?

I believe in Jesus and the saving power of his sacrifice.  I believe in the power of Jesus' blood and the nature of God being love so strongly that I find myself drawn to belief in universal salvation.  To me, being a Christian means that I choose to live in response to that sacrifice by loving God and loving others as Jesus loves me.  

I believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, all religions, all peoples, and the entirety of creation are all redeemed and reconciled to God through the power of Christ's blood.  I believe that the Spirit leads other cultures and traditions towards loving God and love others within their culture and tradition.  People, cultures, and traditions will get it wrong along the way - we always do.  But there's something in all of us that nudges towards reverence for something more than ourselves and to live in peace and harmony with those around us. 

 

I came across the theological concept of amipotence a couple of years ago, and I find it very compelling.  It flows from an acceptance that the defining characteristic of God's entire being is love.  And from that flows the idea that perfect love is perfectly uncontrolling.  Therefore God's perfect love for His entire creation constrains Him from acting in a controlling manner upon His creation.  Human free will and the physical laws of the universe are allowed to proceed without interference to their own conclusions.

Prayer provides one path of connection to God's perfect love, and the true power of God's love is the peace and acceptance we receive while in relationship with Him.  That time of connection can calm our frazzled nerves, ease or at least provide a limitless outlet for the pain of our broken hearts, unlock our intuition about a problem we are dealing with, or release the unknown mechanisms of placebo or some other type of holistic healing.  

however, it unfortunately won't make fsd or robotaxi work.

Posted
Just now, sidis said:

however, it unfortunately won't make fsd or robotaxi work.

Well then I'll just have to rely on "Jesus, take the wheel!"

 

 

 

 

<The above is just a joke and not in line with my personal theology>

Posted
32 minutes ago, Planet Houston said:

Or…no eternal being has his/her finger on the scale, and we have the ability to be good and moral people (while recognizing we all sin and nobody is perfect) without an invisible judge to decide whether we are good enough through “grace”. 

That is certainly an option, but it doesn't exactly fit the scope of this thread.

Posted
12 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Like you, I have come out the Church of Christ tradition, which is exceedingly focused on doctrinal orthodoxy derived from reasoning and rational examination using New Testament scripture as a proof text.  The focus has always been on gaining certainty of God's will and God's plan, which sadly has left very little room for faith and grace.

I have not abandoned the CoC and still attend regularly in an effort to be an instrument for change. 

My faith journey over the past 15 years has led me towards the realization that the Bible is a multi-vocal collection of stories and writings documenting God-seeking people's experiences with God and the truths (their truths) that they took from those experiences.  Realizing that the Bible is multi-vocal and not a word-for-word from dictation from the mouth of God (something it never actually claims) has been exceptionally freeing for me which has challenged, yet ultimately deepened my faith.

I find that I don't really sweat the details and now have very simple filters now for whether or not I accept a particular view or reading of scripture.  What are the manifest fruits of this interpretation, and does it prevent, hinder, or otherwise get in the way of me or another person loving God and others?

I believe in Jesus and the saving power of his sacrifice.  I believe in the power of Jesus' blood and the nature of God being love so strongly that I find myself drawn to belief in universal salvation.  To me, being a Christian means that I choose to live in response to that sacrifice by loving God and loving others as Jesus loves me.  

I believe that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, all religions, all peoples, and the entirety of creation are all redeemed and reconciled to God through the power of Christ's blood.  I believe that the Spirit leads other cultures and traditions towards loving God and love others within their culture and tradition.  People, cultures, and traditions will get it wrong along the way - we always do.  But there's something in all of us that nudges towards reverence for something more than ourselves and to live in peace and harmony with those around us. 

 

I came across the theological concept of amipotence a couple of years ago, and I find it very compelling.  It flows from an acceptance that the defining characteristic of God's entire being is love.  And from that flows the idea that perfect love is perfectly uncontrolling.  Therefore God's perfect love for His entire creation constrains Him from acting in a controlling manner upon His creation.  Human free will and the physical laws of the universe are allowed to proceed without interference to their own conclusions.

Prayer provides one path of connection to God's perfect love, and the true power of God's love is the peace and acceptance we receive while in relationship with Him.  That time of connection can calm our frazzled nerves, ease or at least provide a limitless outlet for the pain of our broken hearts, unlock our intuition about a problem we are dealing with, or release the unknown mechanisms of placebo or some other type of holistic healing.  

Me reading this post

 

 

Posted

A priest told me once that we don’t pray because God intercedes and gives you what ask for, but rather we pray to help focus ourselves on what’s important to us, in order to help us be better examples of Christ’s love.

And I think way more people need to get that message on Sundays.

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