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Boeing 737 carrying 132 passengers crashes in China


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10 minutes ago, austingirl said:

This made me nauseated. The annotated transcript is incredible, especially where it documents the sheer human error that contributed to the crash. I didn't fly till I was 18 and had a couple of bad experiences early on, and until a couple of years ago I needed Xanax every time I flew. Whenever we hit turbulence I have to run through a list of reminders in my head to stay calm - the plane is more than equipped to handle bumps, this is really common, I'm more likely to die in a car crash, we'll be back to smooth skies in a few minutes, the flight crew is skilled and knows exactly what they're doing, etc. Obviously shit happens and pilots are human, but reading that play-by-play in stark detail is a tough reminder that sometimes things just go wrong.

I'm going to Germany this summer on an A330. Probably gonna have to renew that Xanax prescription.

I don’t like flying very much.  I used to take a Xanax to deal with it.  Now I take a Xanax to deal with the other passengers.

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The sad thing is that the A330 was likely trying to pitch its nose down the entire time, but was unable to because it was in alternate law. In that flight logic regime the high and low speed protections become “stabilities” that the pilot can override with load factor protection being the only remaining operative protection from the normal law flight logic. 
 

The other thing is that pitch and power is taught in the bus. At least for level flight. But confusion reigned supreme. 

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4 minutes ago, statsman said:

To me, the worst part was the auto system blaring, “Stall!     Stall!      Stall!” and the crew (at least, the one with primary control) still not clueing in that they were stalling. 

The initial airspeed indication discrepancy led them to believe that their instrumentation was wrong so they disregarded the warning. 

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Su

7 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The initial airspeed indication discrepancy led them to believe that their instrumentation was wrong so they disregarded the warning. 

Sure, but this was several minutes in. Every other indication (altitude, attitude, velocity) indicated a stall. The system was shouting “Stall!” at them. And yet, the one guy with control couldn’t figure out what was going on. It would be funny if it wasn’t tragic. 

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7 minutes ago, statsman said:

Su

Sure, but this was several minutes in. Every other indication (altitude, attitude, velocity) indicated a stall. The system was shouting “Stall!” at them. And yet, the one guy with control couldn’t figure out what was going on. It would be funny if it wasn’t tragic. 

I know.  Not absolving them. But it’s interesting where the mind will go or what initial bias it will accept when under duress despite all indications to the contrary.

 Sounds like at least two of the three were poorly rested as well. 

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30 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The initial airspeed indication discrepancy led them to believe that their instrumentation was wrong so they disregarded the warning. 

The plane figured out that the airspeed indicators began matching up again. (The pilots didn’t, or chose to continue disbelieving them) But that didn’t/doesn’t kick it back into normal law?

or by that time was the stall driving the alternate law regime?

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29 minutes ago, statsman said:

Sure, but this was several minutes in. Every other indication (altitude, attitude, velocity) indicated a stall. The system was shouting “Stall!” at them. And yet, the one guy with control couldn’t figure out what was going on. It would be funny if it wasn’t tragic. 

Capture.JPG.9c5ec72b75f2542f8d4ca7a1b12b819f.JPG

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8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The plane figured out that the airspeed indicators began matching up again. (The pilots didn’t, or chose to continue disbelieving them) But that didn’t/doesn’t kick it back into normal law?

or by that time was the stall driving the alternate law regime?

All the buses think a little differently. Even within the same family.  
 

The 320 series can go back to normal law if the pilots intentionally degrade it. But not  if it degrades on its own. Basically, in the case of an airspeed or AOA issue, the plane knows there’s bad data and doesn’t want it reintroduced into the system. 
 

Having said that, they were pretty continually in a stall condition with large bank angles in addition to having an initial speed discrepancy which probably had them In the A330 version of abnormal attitude law which is alternate law for unusual attitude recovery. That’s a guess based on my understanding of A320 family logic.

So, to answer your question, no, I don’t think the plane reverted to normal law. And probably wouldn’t have even if they exited the stall condition. There are multiple indications on the primary flight display and the ECAM display telling the pilots they are not in normal law. I’m not sure any of them noticed. 
 

In the perfect Monday morning  QB saves the day scenario they realize the discrepancy and the stall they created, complete the high altitude upset procedure described above and set pitch and power for level flight at a safe speed. In an A320 family plane 85% N1 and 2-3 degrees of pitch is level and 245 knots indicated speed at 35,000 feet for example. Then figure out what happened, check on the cabin, change underwear and RTB. 

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0*oirVUcuuZ4Ct7GoV.jpg

Now a smell of ozone started to seep into the cockpit, a not unusual phenomenon when flying through highly charged thunder clouds. But Bonin didn’t seem to recognize it, and it was making him nervous. The ozone, the Saint Elmo’s fire, the storms — none of it was out of the ordinary for a transatlantic crossing, but for some reason it was starting to get to him.


No No No GIF

 

also,

 

At this point Captain Dubois decided it was time to turn in for the night. He rang the call button to summon First Officer Robert from the bunk room. To Bonin, he said, “Er, who’s doing the landing, is it you? Well, he’s going to take my place. You’re a PL, right?”

 

 

What an asshole.

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1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

0*oirVUcuuZ4Ct7GoV.jpg

Now a smell of ozone started to seep into the cockpit, a not unusual phenomenon when flying through highly charged thunder clouds. But Bonin didn’t seem to recognize it, and it was making him nervous. The ozone, the Saint Elmo’s fire, the storms — none of it was out of the ordinary for a transatlantic crossing, but for some reason it was starting to get to him.

 

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I have no idea. I didn’t even bring up Max (and have no idea why he did) and have literally zero idea what either he is talking about nor what you are talking about, so… the only thing I was interested in was this particular incident and if he thought it was intentional or not. Thought people here might be interested (and it matches what other pilots on here seem to say- which I would have no idea of knowing if they are right or not). 
I’m also pretty sure that he knows way more about flying an airplane than you do and way less than some other people do. I’m not particularly interested in having a super star nba player coach my team, nor a baseball HOF’er as my general manager as being in an industry doesn’t make you an expert in all the goings on in said industry, but in a scenario where I know nothing and someone else knows something I’m not against asking for their POV. 
And with that I will bow out of this conversation as I know less than nothing about any of this shit and thought I’d pass along something from someone the board might be interested in. 

lol relax, no one said your brother wasn’t knowledgeable or that you shouldn’t have shared. The Max bit, unprompted as you mentioned, was funny. That’s it.
There's a reason they put "do not eat" on those silicone / charcoal packages they use to reduce humidity in packaging.

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36 minutes ago, gmr548 said:


lol relax, no one said your brother wasn’t knowledgeable or that you shouldn’t have shared. The Max bit, unprompted as you mentioned, was funny. That’s it.

giphy.gif

I'd never even heard of the Max thing.  After he said "definitely intentional" I said- you sure- they grounded all those planes like maybe there was a defect (this was above where I got that screen shot), and then he went on, what I thought was a complete non-sequitar, about foreign pilots, "and that max thing". Then you responded with the Boeing thing and I became even more confused, and wondered if he was full of shit as that seemed to be what you were implying.  So I googled, the first article I read was that longcat NYT article (which was really fascinating) and I was like- OK- I see why that's his take on it.  Seems like Boeing believes in pilots and their skills and Air Bus thinks they are all a bunch of monkeys to be overcome- so I could see why as a pilot who values his own skills he could come down on that side of the fence.  Crashes and catastrophes are almost always fascinating to read about b/c for a big fuck up it usually reads like- here are the 10 things that went wrong, all of them had to go wrong, or we would have never had the catastrophe.  And that probably makes sense if you think about it b/c we don't see planes crashing all the time, or even often at all, so you have to get a large confluence of events to synch up in just the right way for that kind of thing to happen. 

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So after 4-5 days there's still no better idea of what might have happened? Feel like about now you start to get some sort of direction that the evidence is pointing.

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3 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

One word, China

Actually it has crossed my mind of what if this is pilot suicide? Is that something that would ever be admitted there?

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10 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

I don’t like flying very much.  I used to take a Xanax to deal with it.  Now I take a Xanax to deal with the other passengers.

Yeah, I'm going on an exchange trip with a bunch of 4th and 5th graders and their parents so that prescription was going to get renewed anyway.

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11 minutes ago, austingirl said:

Yeah, I'm going on an exchange trip with a bunch of 4th and 5th graders and their parents so that prescription was going to get renewed anyway.

Bless you.  My wife’s an elementary school teacher.  I couldn’t do it any younger than high school, and it’s still not something I would sign up for if I had better options.  I go and read to my wife’s class every so often, and that is enough for me.  No idea how she does it on a daily basis.

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Bless you.  My wife’s an elementary school teacher.  I couldn’t do it any younger than high school, and it’s still not something I would sign up for if I had better options.  I go and read to my wife’s class every so often, and that is enough for me.  No idea how she does it on a daily basis.

She has a man who helps her work out her frustrations.
That man is not you.
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28 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Bless you.  My wife’s an elementary school teacher.  I couldn’t do it any younger than high school, and it’s still not something I would sign up for if I had better options.  I go and read to my wife’s class every so often, and that is enough for me.  No idea how she does it on a daily basis.

Oh blessed Christ, I'm not a teacher - AISD has a sister city in Germany and my son's elementary does an exchange with a school in Koblenz. He and I worked hard on his application and he was one the kids picked to go, so that's why I'm going. I do marketing for a tech company and would be an awful teacher. I know this because my husband is a teacher and once, years ago, I was unhappy with my job and considered a career change, so he got me to help chaperone a field trip to the TX capitol, knowing I'd get over that really quickly. He was correct.

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25 minutes ago, austingirl said:

Oh blessed Christ, I'm not a teacher - AISD has a sister city in Germany and my son's elementary does an exchange with a school in Koblenz. He and I worked hard on his application and he was one the kids picked to go, so that's why I'm going. I do marketing for a tech company and would be an awful teacher. I know this because my husband is a teacher and once, years ago, I was unhappy with my job and considered a career change, so he got me to help chaperone a field trip to the TX capitol, knowing I'd get over that really quickly. He was correct.

Your still a brave soul to chaperone a field trip to Germany.

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


She has a man who helps her work out her frustrations.
That man is not you.

If I wasn’t busy making sure a bunch of possums are relocated from my house to somewhere other than my house in a humane way I would come up with a longer, more witty response.

Imagine we are having a few drinks, shooting the shit, and generally having a good time when you drop that.

🖕

 

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6 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Actually it has crossed my mind of what if this is pilot suicide? Is that something that would ever be admitted there?

pretty much nope. but if Boeing is blamed they are going to want to get all the data.

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12 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I'd never even heard of the Max thing.  After he said "definitely intentional" I said- you sure- they grounded all those planes like maybe there was a defect (this was above where I got that screen shot), and then he went on, what I thought was a complete non-sequitar, about foreign pilots, "and that max thing". Then you responded with the Boeing thing and I became even more confused, and wondered if he was full of shit as that seemed to be what you were implying.  So I googled, the first article I read was that longcat NYT article (which was really fascinating) and I was like- OK- I see why that's his take on it.  Seems like Boeing believes in pilots and their skills and Air Bus thinks they are all a bunch of monkeys to be overcome- so I could see why as a pilot who values his own skills he could come down on that side of the fence.  Crashes and catastrophes are almost always fascinating to read about b/c for a big fuck up it usually reads like- here are the 10 things that went wrong, all of them had to go wrong, or we would have never had the catastrophe.  And that probably makes sense if you think about it b/c we don't see planes crashing all the time, or even often at all, so you have to get a large confluence of events to synch up in just the right way for that kind of thing to happen. 

Swiss cheese, yo!

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9 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

I saw earlier today they found a piece of the plane six miles from the crash site which could mean it experienced a mechanical failure instead of pilot sabotage.

Look at the video.  There is clearly some stuff that broke off once the plane was at terminal velocity.  A plume following the plane.  And the story I read said that it was 6 kilometers, not miles. 

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5 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Look at the video.  There is clearly some stuff that broke off once the plane was at terminal velocity.  A plume following the plane.  And the story I read said that it was 6 kilometers, not miles. 

6 kilometers?  That’s like 3.3 pounds, two rods and a stone, right? So forty seven yards?

Edited by Judge Roybeanbag
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8 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Look at the video.  There is clearly some stuff that broke off once the plane was at terminal velocity.  A plume following the plane.  And the story I read said that it was 6 kilometers, not miles. 

kilometers, miles… it’s still far enough way, if it’s true. 

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Look at the video.  There is clearly some stuff that broke off once the plane was at terminal velocity.  A plume following the plane.  And the story I read said that it was 6 kilometers, not miles. 
Oh it could have been kms.

What video was it? There was one circulating a couple days after the crash of a plane going straight down to the ground without its stabilizer but that was an old video from another instance.
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16 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Oh it could have been kms.

What video was it? There was one circulating a couple days after the crash of a plane going straight down to the ground without its stabilizer but that was an old video from another instance.

No. The one that I posted up thread.  Titled final seconds of #MU5735.  Look at around 12-14 seconds.  Definitely some debris following that plane.

 

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The NTSB has been invited to participate in the investigation. They are typically very candid in their findings and their recommendations are often at odds with the FAA and industry groups. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of access they actually get here. 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-china-invites-ntsb-participate-190138914.html

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On 3/24/2022 at 3:00 PM, statsman said:

To me, the worst part was the auto system blaring, “Stall!     Stall!      Stall!” and the crew (at least, the one with primary control) still not clueing in that they were stalling. 

this is why they've changed the audio warning on newer airplanes

 

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Tired of waiting on the Chinese.  I plotted the position and altitude data from flightradar24 (I don't trust the vertical speed data).  It appears to show a sudden heading change (yaw event) before the loss in altitude, then another one immediately before the descent, then a third one just after the descent began.  So we have a guy stomping on the rudder pedals?  What else could do this?

image.png.bdd4afabb88710236f89610b88e59264.png

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4 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

So we have a guy stomping on the rudder pedals?  What else could do this?

Looking like either that, a mechanical failure, or a new """Boeing safety feature""" like MCAS that they didn't tell anyone about until it broke. Very interested to see the FAA/NTSB investigation findings

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There sure aren't, but then again there "weren't any new safety features" on the MAX either until Boeing notified everyone about MCAS.

 

My point is - I don't trust MacDouglas/Boeing or any of their own investigation team or cheerleaders. I'd rather see the actual investigation results before discussing across 4 pages how stupid and inept non-American pilots are - especially after we've already done this before in the MAX thread

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