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8 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Actually, no.  I can Google things.

This is an internet message board, so take readily information like that, add your personal knowledge and experience and type that out. 

8 hours ago, Satchel said:

Really?

Yes, really.

Because I want you to tell me the origins of the two state solution and whether they are valid, and under what construct.  

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Our relationship with Israel is so ingrained that the fucking NYT uses a euphemism. Put more pressure on Gaza? What is it they want Gaza to do?

Israel is attacking Gaza. It's right there in front of your face. Call it what it is. It's not putting more pressure on Gaza; it's an attack of increasing intensity. It's brutal.

The first sentence says Biden calls on Israel to protect civilians. Doesn't this suggest that Biden thinks Israel is not doing so? It's your lead sentence, NYT. What's the actual story?

Israels Intensifying Assault on Gaza;

Biden Urges Protection of Civilian Lives

This thread has polarized, so many will assume I'm speaking from one end of the pole or the other. I'm not. Competent discussion calls for accurate reportage. Much of my ire is tied to my disappointment in the decline of American journalism. The headline I suggest is merely accurate. 

Does the headline put Israel in a bad light? The color of that light passes through the polarized prism. The two colors are:

Hell yes, they are. And I support it! Hamas is to be destroyed at all costs. All costs.

or

Goddamn, they're killing even more civilians? This attack is brutal, and I oppose it. Israel must find other ways!

I argue that my headline is accurate and objective. That's what we need to feed our lengthy and usually pointless debates which I enjoy participating in. 

Maybe nobody cares. 

 

Edited by RomaVicta
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“Israeli apartheid”- I have read up on it 

The closest possible example is the above-noted West Bank. PA is in charge, but there were bantustans that also had a nominal semi-autonomy, yet still were under the thumb of the South African government. 
 
A difference is that South Africa would not allow any foreign aid or international relations with the bantustans, while the WB (and Gaza) get both of those things.  
 
South Africa restricted movement of bantustan residents in ways that Israel doesn’t. 
 
The situation, to me, seems more accurately described as “like apartheid” than apartheid. Others may disagree. 
 
The issue comes down to Israel trying to autonomously institute the two state solution that the Palestinians refuse to accept. 

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16 hours ago, F250 said:

Weren't a lot of those things destroyed by the Israeli settlers before they left Gaza?

 

Some, but quite a lot were looted and destroyed. Two articles, one Al Jazeera and one NBC. 

“The looters took their time to dismantle the greenhouses and to uproot entire greenhouses and carry them away,” said Amid al-Masri, head of the Palestine Economic Development Company’s (PEDC) greenhouse project. 

The Palestinian Authority project was set up with the help of private donors who paid $13 million to Jewish settlers to leave their greenhouses intact after the withdrawal.

AJ

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/13/looters-steal-gaza-greenhouses

NBC

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863

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So, a riot with murderous intent in Dagestan.  Jewish schools in Paris evacuated because of bomb threats.  Numerous protests in the US where people are carrying signs calling for the extermination of jews.  People tearing down missing posters worldwide re missing Israeli jews, some of them saying that the kidnappers should finish the job and jews should be exterminated.  Jewish center at Cornell under police protection.  Etc. etc. ad nauseum, just since October 7th.

Pledges and threats to kill all Palestinians wherever they may live, all over the world.....not aware of any?  I am aware of at least one instance of what looks to be an anti-muslim hate crime in Chicago.  I would expect that there have been others elsewhere, but nothing systematic of by large groups.

The dynamic that is the reality in which the world operates is:

Palestinians are oppressed in the levant, and do not have the human rights and sovereignty there that they should.  But Palestinians living outside of Palestine are generally as safe and live as ordinary lives as any other group.

Jews are a target for murder and extermination in the entire world - Israel, Europe, the US, everywhere.  Palestinians and Palestinian sympathizers are among the loudest cheerleaders for that cause.  And this is nothing new - Jews being a target for genocide is at least a 2,000 year old phenomenon.

 

That's the dynamic.  Now, develop a path forward that takes that into account.  It's wrong and ineffective not to take into account the plight of Palestinians in the levant when trying to craft a path forward.  It's wrong and ineffective not to take into account the precarious position of every jew on earth, who at any given moment, is a target for a real-deal huge movement to murder them wherever they are.

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What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

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6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

@Brisketexan, the caveat I’d make is that it’s pretty shitty to be a Palestinian outside of Palestine in neighboring countries, too. 

Fair addendum.  For the Palestinians, with friends like the neighboring Arab states, who needs enemies?  The life of a Palestinian in a refugee facility in Jordan or Egypt is no picnic.

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11 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?

 

Long story short: a bunch of Ivy League students thought it was cute and decolonialistic to line up behind “from the river to the sea” and failed to get the memo that it was no longer cute after Hamas tried to actually operationalize that chant. 
 

And there’s probably a fair number of real, honest to goodness raving Jew haters. One thing that’s fascinating is that American academics rightfully take American right wing evangelicals at their word and study what that means. Very few extend that courtesy to Islamists. 

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What is going on with this Ivy League anti-semitism thing?  It was one of the questions on a text survey I took this weekend, but didn't understand why they were asking about my opinion on Ivy League schools.  Apparently Cornell had a bunch of anti-semitic threats and some other schools too?
 

All the cool kids are anti Israel these days. It’s the latest trend on Surly…errr social media.
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15 minutes ago, Hate said:


All the cool kids are anti Israel these days. It’s the latest trend on Surly…errr social media.

 

12 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

The cool kids are mostly anti oppressor.    This situation is more complicated than they can reason.   But the axiom is ok.

This is what I think needs to be understood.  Maybe their brains aren't developed enough yet, but you can be anti-Israeli government and not be anti-Jewish.  At least I can be.  These kids need to back the fuck up and not be idiots.

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NY Post is a troll paper but props to them for putting these motherfuckers on blast.  They merely just interviewed people at a protest.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/9k-pro-palestinian-protestors-take-over-brooklyn-bridge-call-for-elimination-of-jewish-state-by-any-means/

Freedom by any means, land back by any means,” declared Dorian, a 24-year-old protester from Queens, during the three-mile Flood Brooklyn for Gaza march, which began at 3 p.m. in front of the Brooklyn Museum in Crown Heights, not far from the Hasidic Lubavitcher headquarters on Eastern Parkway, where a Sabbath festival was being held.

“I believe the settler state of Israel must be taken down,” he said

 

The demonstrators — holding signs with antisemitic slogans such as “From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free,” and “F—k Israel, Justice Palestine” 

 

“I’m in support of the solidarity of the Palestinian people because the genocide of now, I mean, there’s been so many times I can push you before you push back right?” said Jason, who was decked out in Palestinian accessories.

He chastised Israel for targeting civilians in its war against Hamas and asserted that Israel is committing the humanitarian atrocities it has accused the terrorist group of carrying out.

On the beheading of Israeli babies and children, Jason said: “Where’s the proof? Yeah, that’s the narrative that they put so they can put a bad name on the Palestinians.”

One of the protesters was just 15 years old and bore a sign reading, “F–k Israel all my homies hate Israel”

 

Before the rally, former City Councilman David Greenfield, a Brooklyn Democrat who now heads the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty, lashed out at the protests’ sponsors for choosing to hold an anti-Israel protest on Shabbat in Crown Heights, which has a sizable population of Hasidic Jews.

“It’s not an accident that pro-Hamas activists would pick this place to protest Jews,” he said.

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NY Post is a troll paper but props to them for putting these motherfuckers on blast.  They merely just interviewed people at a protest.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/9k-pro-palestinian-protestors-take-over-brooklyn-bridge-call-for-elimination-of-jewish-state-by-any-means/

Freedom by any means, land back by any means,” declared Dorian, a 24-year-old protester from Queens, during the three-mile Flood Brooklyn for Gaza march, which began at 3 p.m. in front of the Brooklyn Museum in Crown Heights, not far from the Hasidic Lubavitcher headquarters on Eastern Parkway, where a Sabbath festival was being held.

“I believe the settler state of Israel must be taken down,” he said

 

The demonstrators — holding signs with antisemitic slogans such as “From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free,” and “F—k Israel, Justice Palestine” 

 

“I’m in support of the solidarity of the Palestinian people because the genocide of now, I mean, there’s been so many times I can push you before you push back right?” said Jason, who was decked out in Palestinian accessories.

He chastised Israel for targeting civilians in its war against Hamas and asserted that Israel is committing the humanitarian atrocities it has accused the terrorist group of carrying out.

On the beheading of Israeli babies and children, Jason said: “Where’s the proof? Yeah, that’s the narrative that they put so they can put a bad name on the Palestinians.”

One of the protesters was just 15 years old and bore a sign reading, “F–k Israel all my homies hate Israel”

 

Before the rally, former City Councilman David Greenfield, a Brooklyn Democrat who now heads the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty, lashed out at the protests’ sponsors for choosing to hold an anti-Israel protest on Shabbat in Crown Heights, which has a sizable population of Hasidic Jews.

“It’s not an accident that pro-Hamas activists would pick this place to protest Jews,” he said.


They just hate the Israeli government. What’s the big deal?
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@Brisketexan - Read this paper. Antisemitic attitudes are low on the left, especially compared to the right. And they are lower on the far left than in the center left. 

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

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14 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

@Brisketexan - Read this paper. Antisemitic attitudes are low on the left, especially compared to the right. And they are lower on the far left than in the center left. 

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

That’s a really interesting paper.  I scanned all the way through it. One thing that jumped out to me was that overt, recognizable anti-Semitism did not display the “horseshoe theory,” things get a lot more muddled when the study designers asked questions designed to see whether or not people hold anti-Jewish double standards.  I’m not super-surprised that the far-right is far more likely to just say “yes” to straight-up antisemitism as that’s kind of their whole thing. 
 

 

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57 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

The cool kids are mostly anti oppressor.    This situation is more complicated than they can reason.   But the axiom is ok.

One of the thing that’s striking about the modern “cool” far left is the complete lack of any of the romance, revolution, and liberation of the old far left. There’s no Che. There’s no Ho Chi Minh.  There’s no young Castro. 
 

There’s nothing but sour, surly, theocratic, fanatic, (and dare I say it…IMPERIALISTIC) causes for them to line up behind.  Putin. Xi. Mullahs. And all of them a damn sight worse than the oppressors they see behind every corner.  Really, when the purest cause you can line up behind is being led by a theocratic horror show like Hamas, it’s time to reassess. Being a tankie leftists in 2023 means lining up being the most oppressive visions of the world available. 

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6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That’s a really interesting paper.  I scanned all the way through it. One thing that jumped out to me was that overt, recognizable anti-Semitism did not display the “horseshoe theory,” things get a lot more muddled when the study designers asked questions designed to see whether or not people hold anti-Jewish double standards.  I’m not super-surprised that the far-right is far more likely to just say “yes” to straight-up antisemitism as that’s kind of their whole thing. 

It is an interesting read, and I would agree that here in America I am much more likely to be killed by a right wing "Heil Hitler" type of antisemite, and they would broadcast as much.

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

(All of this IMO and largely anecdotal, of course.)

Edited by Chuckie Finster
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22 hours ago, statsman said:

Ok, I’ve figured out that when anti-Zionists say that Israel is “occupying”, they mean the state of Israel, within Israel’s borders, should be “Palestine”. 

You mean like it was before one nation promised another nation the land of a third nation?
 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours, 
Arthur James Balfour

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32 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

@Brisketexan

The idea that there’s a strain of antisemitic thought on the far left is unfounded. The idea that any antisemitism on the far left is even remotely in the ballpark of the far right — or anywhere else on the political spectrum — is just absurd bullshit. 

Antisemitism exists. But the far left is the group least prone to it.

Repeated for emphasis.
 

The horseshoe theory of politics is manure for mediocre moderate minds—and, unfortunately, emboldens the far right where antisemitism seethes as a catalyst for irrational hate. The fishhook theory of politics illustrates antisemitic reality more accurately.

9500E5E6-CAD7-4842-9ACD-BF65E8D73AB9.thumb.webp.0f37eba0bbfa5e218263d2896dcd6c46.webp

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.

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1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

But globally, antisemitism more closely resembles what we see many on the left hide behind - "It's Israel, not the Jews" while making no discernable effort to distinguish between the two.

That might have something to do with the fact that if you try to distinguish between Israel and Jews you run the risk of being labeled an antisemite.

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8 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Actually, no.  I can Google things.

This is an internet message board, so take readily information like that, add your personal knowledge and experience and type that out. 

Yes, really.

Because I want you to tell me the origins of the two state solution and whether they are valid, and under what construct.  

Are you asking a question that you think you know the answer to?

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3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

@Brisketexan, the caveat I’d make is that it’s pretty shitty to be a Palestinian outside of Palestine in neighboring countries, too. 

Which country below would you pick to be a be a Jew over a Palestinian in:

Jordan

Lebanon

Syria

Saudi Arabia 

Egypt

Turkey

Yemen

Iraq

Qatar

UAE

Iran

Oman

?

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2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.

It shouldn’t be too hard for anyone to understand. So, along those lines, a few questions about this:

image.thumb.jpeg.2060878eb6070bc11bd3aa1fa7433a38.jpeg
 

1. Why do you think the organizers selected the term “flood.” 

2. Is there anything particularly “Israeli” in Brooklyn/Crown Heights?

3. If the answer to the above is “no,” what could be in Brooklyn Crown Heights that could be a focus of this protest? Anything that might be a proxy for “Israeli?” 

4. Any historical context to protests or street actions in Brooklyn/Crown Heights that may be relevant?

5. Who is “they”? 

The dog whistles here aren’t at a particularly difficult frequency to hear unless you’re plugging your ears. And with a tip of the hat to @washparkhorn, there’s nothing at all “centrist” here. 

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2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

There is a massive difference between the two and I don't understand why that is hard for anyone to understand, regardless of what you support.

It's more than a little disingenuous when people act like only one side conflates the two. Heck, it's the main way the pro-Israel side argues against detractors. 

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“Help, I’ve being called anti-Semitic because I support Palestine and criticize Israel”

”Holy shit, you got called anti-Semitic for supporting a two state solution?”

“Hahaha, no.”

”Oh, so you criticized the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.”

”No, not that criticism of Israel.”

”So what views are being called anti-Semitic?”

”Oh, you know the ones.”

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image.thumb.jpeg.35c8f2c65ee94624cd5177e570a307c2.jpeg

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17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So when Israel Nation-state X commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

FI to make it pretty damned understandable.  When the state of Israel commits atrocities, war crimes, etc., the response should be criticism of that nation state and the acts thereof.

I'm sorry, but the hand-waving dismissal of the ongoing, continuous, and now heightened genocidal anti-semitism against all jews, everywhere they may be found, is a real fucking problem in both the credibility of those who advocate hard for the Palestinians, AND it ignores a key element of the dynamic such as to make efforts to resolve the situation functionally impossible.

It's a reality that the Palestinians in the levant have a shit sandwich.  Objectively, we should want to remedy that.  Palestinians shouldn't be eating a massive shit sandwich.

It's a reality that genocidal anti-semitism is a real fucking thing that isn't just a one-off belief by an asshole here and there -- it's a strain that runs far and deep across the globe.  Objectively, we have to account for that.  Jews shouldn't be in constant existential fear for their continued existence (both collectively and individually).

If you aren't giving due weight to both of those things, you don't even get off the ground.

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11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm pretty sure the red hat "The Jews Will Not Replace Us" crowd aren't supporting Gaza or Palestinians. They probably don't even know what those words mean. 

You should check out what Nick Fuentes and Jackson Hinkle are up to these days (Hinkle now the most engaged account on X).

For that matter, it’s worth doing a search on “atrocity propaganda” about two week on this forum.

image.thumb.jpeg.5cdaa3fd27ba4cc6955606e24373ee49.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

When the state of Israel commits atrocities, war crimes, etc., the response should be criticism of that nation state and the acts thereof.

The US is really good at wagging its finger and saying a few words. And then pushing the approval through for the arms sales. Ask MBS, he knows how it works.  

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6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The US is really good at wagging its finger and saying a few words. And then pushing the approval through for the arms sales. Ask MBS, he knows how it works.  

No doubt.

A question about US engagement with Israel right now, re the present war.  Do you think that US pressure has resulted in Israel taking a more aggressive course of action re Gaza, or a less aggressive/more measured course of action than Israel otherwise would have?  And yes, I know the response is "we shouldn't offer any support and should kneecap Israel," so stipulating that response....is US diplomatic engagement in the past few weeks helping to ratchet the military acts of Israel UP, or DOWN?

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

So when Israel commits atrocities, what is the politically correct response?

US army troops committed an atrocity in Iraq, at Mahmudiyah, that shames me, as an American who bursts with pride in his country, usually. The men who did it were reported, and are in a hole in Kansas that they will never get out of. Justice? There is no justice for what they did, but this is the closest approximation. 
 
If Israel commits such an atrocity, turn them into Israel. Report it. 
 
Now, are you calling “collateral damage” (the euphemism for innocent civilians being killed by the war around them) an atrocity? John Kirby addressed that very question the other day, and I have no quibble with his answer. It’s Hamas’ fault. 

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59 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No doubt.

A question about US engagement with Israel right now, re the present war.  Do you think that US pressure has resulted in Israel taking a more aggressive course of action re Gaza, or a less aggressive/more measured course of action than Israel otherwise would have?  And yes, I know the response is "we shouldn't offer any support and should kneecap Israel," so stipulating that response....is US diplomatic engagement in the past few weeks helping to ratchet the military acts of Israel UP, or DOWN?

that's the answer, right...Biden admin got them to slow down on the hostilities some, i swear i read that yesterday. 

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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Help, I’ve being called anti-Semitic because I support Palestine and criticize Israel”

”Holy shit, you got called anti-Semitic for supporting a two state solution?”

“Hahaha, no.”

”Oh, so you criticized the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.”

”No, not that criticism of Israel.”

”So what views are being called anti-Semitic?”

”Oh, you know the ones.”

image.thumb.jpeg.5185207602c23f3cc5a5254f7bb15296.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.35c8f2c65ee94624cd5177e570a307c2.jpeg

Weird because those two things you are clearly implying people who advocate for Palestinian liberation don't do are like, exactly what I've been saying for weeks.

Like, you're doing it again, clearly trying to say anyone that stands up for their rights is an anti-Semite. You know, that thing you've apologized for doing in this thread already.

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