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Jim Harbaugh NO LONGER coaches at Michigan


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30 minutes ago, WinningIsHard said:

I have a honest question, if saban or kirby had to actually recruit instead of cheating their balls off would they be as successful? Do we have a couple more titles if we don't lose players to cheating ass paying programs over the last 25 years or so? I don't understand why the cheating has to be so obvious for anybody to do something about it. Michigan should pay, but so should every other cheating slimy shit hook program. 

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2 hours ago, USNALonghorn said:

I wish it did, but it doesn’t. My time in service counter started when I graduated. There are some perks that being an academy grad gives you (lineal number bump for promotion), but a four year head start would be way too unfair in front of our ROTC counterparts.

Thank you, I appreciate you. I was puzzled and had gone and checked. Apparently it counts as service time for retirement purposes for enlisted grades (flunkouts who stay in?) but not officers, if I'm reading the legalese correctly. It apparently also counts for non-military fed service time retirement calculations and other purposes that do not refer to officers - again, if I'm reading correctly. Apparently, the dividing line begins upon commission, i.e. when one becomes an officer, which makes sense. Thanks, again.

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5 hours ago, choripan said:

FWIW, I played college football on the defensive side at a major D1 program (walk-on with some PT, not a real guy, though!).

There seems to be a thread here where the media, who has an obvious interest in keeping a story going, and internet people are making a big deal of this.

And with rare exception, most former players, former coaches, and current coaches without a vested interest are like "sign stealing, yeah, we've done it, they've done it. It's part of the game." For my part, I can say that against pretty much every team we played in the early 2000s, we had their signs and we also practiced until we got their favorite base 5-10 plays down cold.

So I don't see the big deal. Good on Meatchicken for being good at what everyone does. The only way I think Michigan meaningfully gets hurt on this is if the NCAA trumps up some sort of technicality.

What years did you play for Michigan?

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9 minutes ago, Parliament said:

B1G coaches: “Ban Michigan from the post season.  You have the authority.  Use it.”

B1G Commish: “I do.  And banning them will cost each of you millions in bowl money cost sharing.  I’ll do it. Your call.  Tell me what to do.”

Coaches: (silence)

how much money do you think Michigan would bring in?  The Big 10 distributes all bowl money equally.  A college football playoff spot garners about $6 million.  So assuming Michigan would make the CFP and no other Big 10 school would, that would mean the loss of $6 million over 14 teams, or about $425k.  

I'm guessing the schools aren't sweating that amount of money if they want to see Michigan punished.

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Uncle Urban and I have the same opinion on something for once. He must be a slappy Michigan fan at heart. 

 

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“This is really the first time, because it’s you and a guy I respect—so I’m very cautious,” Meyer said on the show, per On3 Sports. “I’ve been asked over 100 times to comment on it and I just won’t. But I am going to, I’ll tell you my thoughts: First of all I’m very skeptical of reporters reporting. My experience is they’re wrong most of the time. And that’s not a shot at the media, that’s reality. People say things that they’re reporting that’s just not true. So I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt saying, first of all it’s hard for me to believe that is true.”

 

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My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

The media doesn’t need for it to “look scandalous.” It IS scandalous. 

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3 minutes ago, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Juicy said:

My point would be that it is advantageous for the media to make this look as scandalous as possible for clicks and views. Maybe it comes out that everything being reported is 100% true. Maybe after the investigation happens it comes out that it wasn't as bad as it currently appears. 

 

This is one of the juiciest, most entertaining and scandalous stories to hit college football in a long time. It has cheating, espionage, military, ticket receipts, videos footage, security breaches, etc. And its mostly been crickets outside of those who are hardcore about college football.

No CR, but I think Fox prefers to gloss over it because they have the rights to the Big Ten games. Do advertisers pull out because it’s a league of cheaters? Should Fox lean in and open up the vault of Big Ten games to drive eyeballs to their streaming sites? I’m sure tons of people would love to go back and stream lots of old Big Ten games looking for crazy shit on the sidelines. 

I’m sure everyone is hesitant to make a big move because new stuff keeps coming out almost daily.

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6 hours ago, choripan said:

FWIW, I played college football on the defensive side at a major D1 program (walk-on with some PT, not a real guy, though!).

...

For my part, I can say that against pretty much every team we played in the early 2000s, we had their signs and we also practiced until we got their favorite base 5-10 plays down cold.

Lol.  How many of your opponents used offensive sideline signals in the early 2000s?  

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7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You get dumber with every post. This isn't reporters saying things. There are pictures. And videos. People are seeing things with their own eyes. 

This is where I'm at on the topic, there are pictures and paper trails that are known things. This isn't some large circumstantial issue, the opponents signals are on laminated sheets on the Michigan sidelines. 

On National Broadcast Video and Pictures from the stands. 

There is no other rational explanation, the evidence is there, the will to do anything about it is the only thing in question. 

I think its still an open question if there are other scandals, further evidence of deeper organizational involvement, but those punishments do not need to be tied together. 

Case 1 is effectively concluded, and so should its punishment 

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8 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

It's basically a Black Swan comparison. Mediocristan is where player talents and coaching talents reside. The best player in the nation at a position versus the worst player at the same position at the same level is a big gap, but it isn't the Grand Canyon. It's why Rice could beat Texas and App State could beat Michigan. All of the unknown variables about what 22 moving bodies are about to do still exist as the risk before every snap.

Having another team's signals married to their playcalls resides in Extremistan. The gap between knowing virtually everything the opponent is going to do versus the opponent just working off of film study and practices is not Grand Canyon wide, it's galaxies wide. You have suddenly removed most variables, which are virtually incalculable, for all 22 players' actions after the snap. It's no longer the same game being played. 

I think some people want to naively fall back into the idea that the player still has to make a play and ignore the concept that all plays are not independent of each other.

Having any one play in itself is a huge advantage from the players standpoint, but when it gets outlandish is when you know it multiple plays in a row from a play caller’s standpoint . What then compounds it is when you know it multiple plays in a row and it lets you then dictate situational play calling.

So you know the play calls and see reactive on D and so you force more 3 and outs or limit times the O crosses midfield. Now because of it, you are forcing the opposing D to play more and become fatigued. So even if you can’t react as dynamically on O yourself, you are wearing down the defense more and more and steadily winning the battle of field position.

Where this then gets even worse is now you have opponents getting behind sooner and therefore needing to be more aggressive in play calling, which tend to have to lead to plays with a  large boom or bust component to begin with, but now you know what most of the calls are… Any play call you don’t recognize you signal to the D to play conservative and limit a potential big play. Any trick play or high leverage situation you know the play call for would lead to that much higher likelihood of a big loss of yards…

The whole thing is a fucking spiral. Know the plays, limit their O, which puts their D on the field more plus the advantage they f knowing their sideline calls to audible, which leads to more scoring/tired D, which leads to a more aggressive opponents O, which leads to bigger loss of yards, and you back on O against a tired D again….

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18 minutes ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

You’re quoting a guy who has an ax to grind against the media because they bring all the shitty stuff he does to light.

He's always had an adversarial role with regards to the media.

Back at Florida, he verbally attacked an Orlando Sentinel reporter for quoting a Florida player comparing Tebow to Brantley and threatened to ban the paper from practice for 5 years.

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3 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

I think some people want to naively fall back into the idea that the player still has to make a play and ignore the concept that all plays are not independent of each other.

Having any one play in itself is a huge advantage from the players standpoint, but when it gets outlandish is when you know it multiple plays in a row from a play caller’s standpoint . What then compounds it is when you know it multiple plays in a row and it lets you then dictate situational play calling.

So you know the play calls and see reactive on D and so you force more 3 and outs or limit times the O crosses midfield. Now because of it, you are forcing the opposing D to play more and become fatigued. So even if you can’t react as dynamically on O yourself, you are wearing down the defense more and more and steadily winning the battle of field position.

Where this then gets even worse is now you have opponents getting behind sooner and therefore needing to be more aggressive in play calling, which tend to have to lead to plays with a  large boom or bust component to begin with, but now you know what most of the calls are… Any play call you don’t recognize you signal to the D to play conservative and limit a potential big play. Any trick play or high leverage situation you know the play call for would lead to that much higher likelihood of a big loss of yards…

The whole thing is a fucking spiral. Know the plays, limit their O, which puts their D on the field more plus the advantage they f knowing their sideline calls to audible, which leads to more scoring/tired D, which leads to a more aggressive opponents O, which leads to bigger loss of yards, and you back on O against a tired D again….

Great points. The whole issue is nonlinear. It's part of what makes the whole "hurrrrrrrr, duurrrrrrrr, you still gotta make the play!" nonsense, spouted by players and coaches who aren't particularly bright, along with various talking heads, just fucking laughable. You don't have to make one play with the odds stacked against. You have to make all of the plays with the odds against you, and if you fail to, the problem augments on you at great speed.

Overly simplified chaos theory is another way to look at a football game and each team's plans. Each team starts with a set of plans and players, then the game starts, 22 variables interact on each play and things fractal out into the unknown as the game unfolds. If one side is able to govern the variables and environment in some form, however, they're no longer operating on the same theoretical playing field and in far higher degree of control of the overall outcome.

Sure, no advantage there alright.

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the notion that former football players aren't that upset about teams knowing their plays as they are called is most likely only true in the case of the bad mother fuckers on the field. Ricky williams, vince young, adrian peterson, Suh, derrick johnson, leonard davis, etc. These are guys who can whip peoples asses 1 on 1 even if the other guy knows what's coming. It's bullshit for the rest of the population which is 99%. I remember playing at mary hardin baylor as a freshman and the worst plays were when your coach would say "line it up and run it again", the other side knew what was coming and it was a shit show. LB's would smash into gaps with reckless abandon, safeties would crash down full speed. It fucking sucked. If I was looking across at all conference or all american defensive players and they knew what was coming....ball game. 

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31 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Lol.  How many of your opponents used offensive sideline signals in the early 2000s?  

Not sure what you mean by this but high schools have used offensive and defensive sideline signals since the 70s.  We had two coaches sending the play in with signals.  One was live, the other was a dummy.  

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7 minutes ago, hullabelew said:

Not sure what you mean by this but high schools have used offensive and defensive sideline signals since the 70s.  We had two coaches sending the play in with signals.  One was live, the other was a dummy.  

No.  Defensive signals were common. Offensive signals weren't at all.  We had zero offensive signals.  Even in two minute we used a rote script and audible calls.  Nothing was ever signaled in from the sideline.

I only ever played one team that used offensive signals.

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4 minutes ago, JBJ said:

No.  Defensive signals were common. Offensive signals weren't at all.  We had zero offensive signals.  Even in two minute we used a rote script and audible calls.  Nothing was ever signaled in from the sideline.

I only ever played one team that used offensive signals.

In 1978, our small 2A school signaled in off/def plays from the sidelines. 

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3 minutes ago, hullabelew said:

In 1978, our small 2A school signaled in off/def plays from the sidelines.  

Seems weird to me. I played Tx 5A D3 and D1 in the late 90s- early 00s.

Maybe it fell out of favor and came back with HUNH.

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So I don’t know of you guys ever saw it, but 4 or 5 years ago there was a great video about developing a phone app to crack baseball signals. It is a super simple concept and something my undergrads can do.

What I am curious with now is how hard is it to do the same thing in real time with in game sign data? Or is this even a topic I should be saying out loud? All it is is an im sequence identification algorithm overlayed with some type of formational concept. 
 

I wonder how many play calls would it take to reach a point where you could accurately determine a set of signals were pass or run? How many to get deeper into things like route trees or run direction… 

I am fairly sure this could be something that could be done in real time and develop an app that gets put on the sideline and press box ipads. You could even take away the manual component and set up a camera in game and live capture their signs and load it straight into the machine….

Ill shut up now before this opens Pandora’s box..

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20 minutes ago, Steamboat1874 said:

Give every player on offense and defense a wristband with all of the plays numbered.

Send the play number in from the sidelines which can by done by three or four guys with only one of them being "Hot".

Change the wristbands every quarter.

Problem solved.

Just don't grab the wrong wristbands

-2019 Florida vs Georgia

Edited by gatormarc
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NSIAP

https://theathletic.com/5024796/2023/11/02/big-ten-coaches-call-michigan-sign-stealing/?source=twitterhq

Spoiler

Big Ten football coaches frustrated with conference stance on Michigan: ‘We want something done now’

For the past two weeks, coaches across college football have been riveted by the alleged Michigan sign-stealing scheme, but inside the Big Ten, the topic has been more than just a curiosity. On Wednesday’s Big Ten coaches video call with commissioner Tony Petitti, and after Jim Harbaugh left the call, that frustration was voiced loud and clear, according to conference coaches, who said they don’t feel like the new Big Ten commissioner is “motivated” to do anything about the Wolverines.

“There is just a ton of frustration,” a Big Ten coach told The Athletic on Thursday morning. “Look at Jim Harbaugh’s record before this started. The guy was on the hot seat before 2021, and now he’s like the king of college football. … No doubt this all has had a profound effect.

“This guy’s being investigated for three different things now between the (alleged) illegal signal stealing, the (alleged) illegal recruiting during COVID and that investigation into the offensive coordinator and alleged computer hacking. There are guys (on that call) who could lose jobs, and then there’s this guy over here (Harbaugh) who is gonna get a new, bigger contract now, and they won’t do anything about him.”

Asked to describe the tone of the coaches’ sentiment expressed to Petitti, another Big Ten coach called it “angry” — particularly at the Big Ten’s lack of action, or even apparent interest in taking any.

“Everybody’s upset,” that coach told The Athletic. “Why is nothing being done? We want to know, what else do you need to know to take action? We (the Big Ten head coaches) want something done now. I don’t think people understand the advantage that what they’re (allegedly) doing gives you. People think, ‘OK, now that everybody knows, we all can just move on.’ Like, ‘now, it’s fair.’ Well, no, it isn’t. Not at all. This changes the way you operate. A lot of teams have been doing things a certain way for years. Now, it’s forcing you to teach your players a whole new way to communicate just for them. People think that this is just advanced scouting. This was damn near espionage.”

A third Big Ten head coach told The Athletic that this is “one of the most egregious breaches in the spirit of the game” he’s ever heard of.

“They (Michigan) have been manipulating the game and cheating the game for two-and-a-half years. To know exactly what the other team is doing, Michigan might as well have been playing with 15 guys on the field,” he said. “What’s the message the Big Ten is sending now by doing nothing? Win now, pay later? We might as well just send people to (scout) their practices and their games. It doesn’t encourage anybody to follow the rules. It’s just telling them to do the opposite and say, f— it.”

The NCAA is investigating Michigan’s football program amid allegations that the Wolverines used illegal in-person scouting and the recording of signals to steal signs this season. Ahead of the Michigan-Michigan State game on Oct. 21, the Big Ten approached MSU and said it was made aware of “credible evidence” regarding the sign-stealing allegations. The Big Ten said it would monitor the NCAA’s investigation into Michigan.

“The Big Ten is so much more powerful than the NCAA,” that third Big Ten coach said. “Why are you just sitting back and doing nothing about this? The Big Ten can’t pound its chest for the last 30 years about how it does the right thing ethically (when other conferences like the SEC won’t) and then have this go on. If this were a team in the bottom half of the Big Ten, would this be handled in the same way?

“When a running back gets hurt against Michigan because they knew exactly what play was coming, will that kid and his family have the ability to sue the Big Ten?”

The NCAA investigation is ongoing, a process that typically moves slowly, which makes it difficult to imagine it will reach a resolution by the time the postseason begins. The Big Ten does have the ability to act under its sportsmanship policy, but that doesn’t mean that it would want to act quickly or decisively before the NCAA completes its entire investigation and allows Michigan a chance to respond to its findings.

This is an unprecedented situation; whatever Petitti decides to do (or not do) will set a precedent. The Big Ten itself doesn’t have investigators, so it needs to rely upon the NCAA to do that part — and to determine who else was involved in the alleged scouting scheme. It’s not clear exactly what the coaches would want the league to do to punish Michigan; banning the team from competing in the Big Ten championship, for example, would harm players who had nothing to do with the sign-stealing apparatus.

A source briefed on the coaches’ call said Big Ten coaches are concerned about whether Michigan “should represent the Big Ten.”

“No matter what happens, if Michigan continues to move forward, the clouds will follow,” the source said. “They’re reading the tea leaves and wondering why the Big Ten hasn’t done anything yet. Every week and every day that goes by, people are like, ‘Something’s gotta give.’ It’s getting a little bit out of hand when you see him (allegedly) on the Central Michigan sideline. The playing field is not level right now. How can you have a team that you know has a competitive advantage over you still being allowed to play? That’s what the coaches are grappling with.”

“It feels like (former commissioner) Kevin (Warren) taking over and then COVID,” the source continued. “Tony’s walking into this situation, and people are calling for the league to make a statement before they have all the facts.”

Despite frustration from all corners of the conference, sources at four different Big Ten schools said they do not expect the conference to levy any sort of punishment against Michigan before the season ends.

Earlier this week, Central Michigan said it is investigating whether suspended Michigan staffer Connor Stalions was on the CMU sideline during the Chippewas’ Sept. 1 game at Michigan State. Screenshots of a person who looks similar to Stalions began circulating online Monday night, and The Athletic obtained more photos of the person on the sideline Tuesday.

Stalions, who was suspended with pay by Michigan on Oct. 20, is at the center of the NCAA’s investigation into the alleged scouting and sign-stealing scheme. Stalions bought tickets to games in at least seven Big Ten stadiums before those teams played the Wolverines over the past three seasons, including the 2023 season, sources told The Athletic last month. Purchasing the tickets is not a violation of NCAA rules, but using them to scout and record other teams would violate the rules, prohibiting in-person, on-campus scouting and the audio or video recording of signals.

On Monday, coach Jim Harbaugh met with reporters and said “the people that know us the most think the most of us” as Michigan faces the NCAA investigation. He has denied knowledge of the alleged scouting.

Required reading

(Photo: Rick Osentoski / USA Today)

Great quotes in there. 

Edited by hornbri
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  • immamac changed the title to Jim Harbaugh NO LONGER coaches at Michigan

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