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Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?


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18 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

They also filed Chapter 11. That’s kind of a big deal. 

Weatherford should be forced back into bankruptcy....and probably taken out back and beaten as well....for posting this corporate-speak gobbledygook as their enterprise description:

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Who We Are

Weatherford delivers innovative energy services that integrate proven technologies with advanced digitalization to create sustainable offerings for maximized value and return on investment. Our world-class experts partner with customers to optimize their resources and realize the full potential of their assets. Operators choose us for strategic solutions that add efficiency, flexibility, and responsibility to any energy operation.

To be honest, I'm stunned that it doesn't use "synergies" even once.

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34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Weatherford should be forced back into bankruptcy....and probably taken out back and beaten as well....for posting this corporate-speak gobbledygook as their enterprise description:

To be honest, I'm stunned that it doesn't use "synergies" even once.

I've known quite a few Weatherford employees over the course of my career.  None of them I would consider a "world-class expert" by any stretch.  One of them even joked that when Schlumberger goes to hire new employees, they search the graduate schools.  Halliburton and Baker Hughes pull from undergrad programs.  Weatherford recruits from the local prison.

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After being stuck on Mopac behind a Tesla going 55 with football fields of space in front of him, maybe self-driving isn't so bad for some of these idiots.

Now, on a less cheerful note, does anyone know what Elon was doing in 2006 and if he had anything to do with this???  I'm not saying he did it but I'm saying he did it.  

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On 12/17/2023 at 9:03 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

If it’s just a software change, how is it not just a forced push over air to all of the vehicles?

It is.  Mine is updating as I post this. 

On 12/17/2023 at 7:16 AM, Neonmoon said:

I mean the fact Waymo actually has these on streets with people able to use them definitely means they’re light years ahead of Tesla 

On 12/17/2023 at 11:07 AM, MrBig said:

Waymo uses lidar. Tesla does not. Lidar is much safer and accurate for self driving vehicles. Tesla only uses images from cameras. Your eyes can play tricks on you, but lidar knows better. 

https://www.theverge.com/23776430/lidar-tesla-autonomous-cars-elon-musk-waymo

I question that Waymo is "light years" ahead of Tesla. 

Waymo vehicles only operate in limited geographic areas that are meticulously mapped with LIDAR so that the vehicles can compare the LIDAR map to what its LIDAR sees.  That's why Waymo vehicles have seen limited release only in urban and suburban areas.  They cannot operate outside of those limited areas.  LIDAR maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.

Tesla's is a more general approach that aims to develop an AI Driver that can operate on any roads and use visual input and GPS to make it's driving decisions like human drivers currently do.  It is a more adaptable approach than the LIDAR-mapped approach.   Telsa's FSD beta vehicles are operating all over the country.

I don't know which approach will win out.  If we ever want to move to a fully autonomous transportation system on all of our roads, Tesla's approach seems to have the most potential.  If we want to limit fully autonomous vehicles to higher population urban areas only, then Waymo surely has the jump there.    

 

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Just now, longhornmatt said:

Yeah, who could ever guess which approach is more likely to yield actual self driving cars:

1.  The approach that believes “maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.”

or

2. The “more general approach”.  

 

I agree that approach #1 sounds like the winner, except that it is largely impractical for broad application at the level of detail required for LIDAR equipped vehicles.  
 

“General” was a poor choice of word by me.  I should have said “more broadly applicable.” 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Former engineers from Tesla and those working in the field now have said that only using cameras will not work. it just isn’t feasible with the limited technology.

This still blows my mind.  I get that they needed to save some bucks, but that's a short-term/next-quarter solution, rather than a long-term solution.

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3 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

It is.  Mine is updating as I post this. 

I question that Waymo is "light years" ahead of Tesla. 

Waymo vehicles only operate in limited geographic areas that are meticulously mapped with LIDAR so that the vehicles can compare the LIDAR map to what its LIDAR sees.  That's why Waymo vehicles have seen limited release only in urban and suburban areas.  They cannot operate outside of those limited areas.  LIDAR maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.

Tesla's is a more general approach that aims to develop an AI Driver that can operate on any roads and use visual input and GPS to make it's driving decisions like human drivers currently do.  It is a more adaptable approach than the LIDAR-mapped approach.   Telsa's FSD beta vehicles are operating all over the country.

I don't know which approach will win out.  If we ever want to move to a fully autonomous transportation system on all of our roads, Tesla's approach seems to have the most potential.  If we want to limit fully autonomous vehicles to higher population urban areas only, then Waymo surely has the jump there.    

 

You are grossly mischaracterizing Waymo's sensor fusion approach. Their long term strategy is to gain real world data across a ton of instruments to build an agent based driving model that is generalizable. And they use more than just LIDAR, since it turns out that fog and rain significantly degrade their visibility. 

You need more than just one set of inputs from the outside world to effectively drive. Tesla's approach will never work in anything less than a sterile environment 

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33 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You are grossly mischaracterizing Waymo's sensor fusion approach. Their long term strategy is to gain real world data across a ton of instruments to build an agent based driving model that is generalizable. And they use more than just LIDAR, since it turns out that fog and rain significantly degrade their visibility. 

You need more than just one set of inputs from the outside world to effectively drive. Tesla's approach will never work in anything less than a sterile environment 

Sterile/involuntarily celibate, 220, 221....

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2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

This still blows my mind.  I get that they needed to save some bucks, but that's a short-term/next-quarter solution, rather than a long-term solution.

I want to go back to this to touch on it a bit more. I think sometime In the future, cameras only could be a solution. But we aren’t there yet.
 

I think for the first generation of full AV, we need a package that uses more input than we have (eyes,ears) and slowly start figuring out what we don’t need. Maybe full mapped area is unnecessary and those can be dumped. Maybe a good radar array is enough and LiDAR can be dropped. Who knows?

What I can say is that trying to under engineer a problem is a lot harder than trying to over engineer it. 

Edited by Captain Ron
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15 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

I do, it won’t be Tesla.

Former engineers from Tesla and those working in the field now have said that only using cameras will not work. it just isn’t feasible with the limited technology.

You aren’t wrong that Waymo and Cruise currently only work in mapped areas. But that is a choice, not a need. They could attempt to operate in unmapped areas, they just choose to have the maps as an extra layer of data. 

and this is your mistake looking through the fanboi glasses. The approach that the real autonomous car companies are using isn’t less broadly applicable, they are much more data driven. They have cameras, radar, lidar, maps, etc. They want the most data to have the safest solution possible.

The Tesla approach isn’t “more broadly applicable”, the goal is to do it as cheap as possible with the fewest parts possible. Thats not extensible, it’s very limiting. And it’s why aggy EV has been saying for years “next year we’ll have it” yet not delivered on that promise. 

this is what i don't understand, everyone under the sun working on solving this says more data points/ways to collect data is better. TSLA cut back (to save $$$ or because of parts shortages IIRC?) to only cameras.

literally no one other than TSLA says that cams only will work.

i fully expect the dude to bring up how many miles TSLA has mapped/driven next but that isn't applicable.

this is a fundamental issue with them and their company that their CEO should be working night and day on that is as big of a threat to their company as any that has ever existed - seriously. instead he's out here shitposting and posting shitty memes at 3AM.

here is the real issue for them: if someone solves it they can license it out quickly to a ton more companies, gather more data, improve the product, which leads to more licensing opportunities, which leads to more data, which leads to larger gaps between the market leaders and everyone else.

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

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lol

Tesla Has The Highest Accident Rate Of Any Auto Brand

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=20c8bc332894

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Tesla drivers are the most accident-prone, according to a LendingTree analysis of 30 car brands. It found that Tesla drivers are involved in more accidents than drivers of any other brand. Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers. Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90) were the only other brands with more than 20.00 accidents per 1,000 drivers for every brand.

the story it's from: https://www.lendingtree.com/insurance/brand-incidents-study/

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28 minutes ago, NoName said:

this is what i don't understand, everyone under the sun working on solving this says more data points/ways to collect data is better. TSLA cut back (to save $$$ or because of parts shortages IIRC?) to only cameras.

literally no one other than TSLA says that cams only will work.

i fully expect the dude to bring up how many miles TSLA has mapped/driven next but that isn't applicable.

this is a fundamental issue with them and their company that their CEO should be working night and day on that is as big of a threat to their company as any that has ever existed - seriously. instead he's out here shitposting and posting shitty memes at 3AM.

here is the real issue for them: if someone solves it they can license it out quickly to a ton more companies, gather more data, improve the product, which leads to more licensing opportunities, which leads to more data, which leads to larger gaps between the market leaders and everyone else.

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

 

https://www.engineering.com/story/now-revealed-why-teslas-have-only-camera-based-vision

So in there he says:

Quote

“Vision became so good that radar actually reduced SNR [signal to noise ratio], so radar was turned off,” said Musk in a tweet in October of 2021. “Humans drive with eyes & biological neural nets, so makes sense that cameras & silicon neural nets are only way to achieve generalized solution to self-driving.”

That REALLY tells me that everyone should stay the fuck away from his cars. That's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the driving task.

I have also heard that has been claimed by Elon was that he wants to democratize AV for everyone. He wants to offer autonomous driving for every level of their cars and the only way that is possible would be camera only because they don't stick all of the electronics into the lower levels of cars. I do find that an interesting claim. Most manufacturers can put radar and LiDAR in lower end cars. Toyota has them in their Corolla and from what I can tell it's in pretty low badging levels.

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45 minutes ago, NoName said:

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

Well, you see he read this tweet from catturd69420 at 3 in the morning that said it can all be done with cameras, because radars allow the government to send signals into your brain.

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Difference is, OceanGate only put their "crew" at risk and not innocent third-parties.

Elon puts my life, my kids' and wife's lives, and your life at risk with his beta testing horseshit. You're part of the problem if you don't watch your system like a hawk, Guadaloopy. If you do, more power to you.

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I know we hate Elon here and that none of his shit will ever work as ever advertised...

except that yesterday my FSD beta Model 3 drove me 12.9 miles to Costco on neighborhood streets with 25 mph speed limit, rural roads with 45-50 mph speed limit with stop signs at intersections, turning onto a a state highway with 65 mph speed limit and cross-traffic, a city street with 45mph speed limits with multiple stoplights at major intersections and one stretch of road construction down to one lane...  all with zero intervention from me, the driver.

There may be other ways to skin this cat, but to say that Tesla's approach is doomed to failure just isn't supported by reality.

 

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16 minutes ago, choripan said:

Difference is, OceanGate only put their "crew" at risk and not innocent third-parties.

Elon puts my life, my kids' and wife's lives, and your life at risk with his beta testing horseshit. You're part of the problem if you don't watch your system like a hawk, Guadaloopy. If you do, more power to you.

I absolutely do.  I want to see where the weaknesses in the system are.  I'm seeing fewer and fewer all of the time.

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I 1000% believe the stat on Tesla drivers being among the shittiest.  For fuck's sake, just last night, I was leaving HEB.  Tesla in front of me as I'm driving down the parking lot aisle towards the exit.  Tesla is putzing along at around 1-2 mph.  Then stops, blocking the whole aisle.  So I can't fucking go home.  I honk.  It takes a few seconds, but it begins moving....again, at around 1-2 mph.  Gets to the exit drive, stops diagonally across it, blocking both entrance and exit lanes.  Finally goes out into the street (unfortunately, heading the same direction I am).  AGAIN, he's driving now around 3-5 mph . . . . and now, he's straddling the lane marker, so I can't even go around him.  Driving obliviously slow, taking up the entire road.  Yep, it completely checks out.

The number of things about Elon and his brands that AREN'T shitty is pretty close to absolute zero.

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8 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I know we hate Elon here and that none of his shit will ever work as ever advertised...

except that yesterday my FSD beta Model 3 drove me 12.9 miles to Costco on neighborhood streets with 25 mph speed limit, rural roads with 45-50 mph speed limit with stop signs at intersections, turning onto a a state highway with 65 mph speed limit and cross-traffic, a city street with 45mph speed limits with multiple stoplights at major intersections and one stretch of road construction down to one lane...  all with zero intervention from me, the driver.

There may be other ways to skin this cat, but to say that Tesla's approach is doomed to failure just isn't supported by reality.

 

6 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I absolutely do.  I want to see where the weaknesses in the system are.  I'm seeing fewer and fewer all of the time.

Sure is convenient for tesla that they've been allowed to kill and injure so many people in the name of progress while ignoring known flaws like failure to properly handle emergency vehicles. 

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Tesla driver hit a kid on a bike in my neighborhood a couple weeks ago. Driver literally said "I didn't think this could happen in this car". Dude tried to give the kid $100 and leave. Two Karens that were out in their yards and saw it happen called the cops and wouldn't let him leave. Kid was fine. 

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