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Should Traffic Controllers be paid during shutdowns? And should private planes receive the same access as commercial airlines during flight restrictions?


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Posted

I do NOT want to go cloak room on this.  I really just want to know if you think airports are such important infrastructure to the public that they should be paid during shutdowns?

And do you think that Private Jets (low passenger counts) should or should not have the same access to the flight path as commercial airlines during periods of flight restrictions?

 

My personal feeling is yes, they should be paid as the overall threat to economic activity, makes me feel like Air traffic controllers are essential.  Conversely, I think that the first flights to lose access to the flight path should be private planes.  Simply as their are a lot of alternative landing places for smaller airlines, that could be utilized.  The same cannot be said for commercial airlines.  I just think you start off restricting the flights with the fewest passengers is the most logical way to manage such a crisis in the future.

 

 

 

Posted
16 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Interestingly the link says:

Quote
  • The Federal Aviation Administration on Monday limited private flights at a dozen major U.S. airports as air traffic controller shortages snarled traffic around the country.
  • Last week, the FAA didn’t limit private jet and other general aviation flights like it did for U.S. commercial aviation.
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Posted
2 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Interestingly the link says:

"last week" being Friday. So a couple days later.    

 

Sure they should have done it at exactly the same time.  Not sure it makes much operational difference, perhaps politically when the billionaires are inconvenienced.

Posted
10 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

I’m as affected by these ATC troubles as anyone but a shutdown needs to be a shutdown.   Otherwise there’s no incentive to work for compromise.  Start paying everyone and that’s how you make it last longer.

Make it be a real shutdown so they try harder to avoid it.  I would go further and say not only don’t pay fed employees, don’t have them come in to work at all. All air travel stops. All military ops pause.  All fed offices close. Tell the airlines they can’t fly.  Billions would be at stake instantly and the shutdown would likely never happen or if it did it wouldn’t last 2 hours. 

I'm kinda on board with this. It seemed like the shut down during the Clinton term had Alor more closures. 

I feel like the average person isn't really affected that much anymore

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Posted
27 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

"last week" being Friday. So a couple days later.    

 

Sure they should have done it at exactly the same time.  Not sure it makes much operational difference, perhaps politically when the billionaires are inconvenienced.

So if you were managing a business, say the FAA, your first move would be to put the most productive and income producing flights at a 4,5,6% cuts? Then you would look at the least income producing flights carrying the fewest people?  From a business, or putting the public first perspective, it's a strange starting point for me?  Assuming my goal is the least disruption and minimize economic damage? That's why I think it's so clear that private flights should always be the first one's cut, before a commercial flight?  I would be fascinated to know the number of private and non-commercial flights allowed to displace commercial airline flights?  From an economic perspective is a no brainer.

Having Air traffic controllers paid is a no brainer to me.  And I don't fly all that much, but it's like closing an interstate from a business perspective.  So again a no brainer for me from an economic perspective.  

Posted
9 minutes ago, horn4life said:

So if you were managing a business, say the FAA, your first move would be to put the most productive and income producing flights at a 4,5,6% cuts? Then you would look at the least income producing flights carrying the fewest people?  From a business, or putting the public first perspective, it's a strange starting point for me? 

well you see its not a business, its the government so its not ever going to be managed like a business.   NO CR

 

I agree with Your Mom above.  Paying everyone during a shutdown makes a shutdown even more completely non-sensical.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Your Mom said:

I’m as affected by these ATC troubles as anyone but a shutdown needs to be a shutdown.   Otherwise there’s no incentive to work for compromise.  Start paying everyone and that’s how you make it last longer.

Make it be a real shutdown so they try harder to avoid it.  I would go further and say not only don’t pay fed employees, don’t have them come in to work at all. All air travel stops. All military ops pause.  All fed offices close. Tell the airlines they can’t fly.  Billions would be at stake instantly and the shutdown would likely never happen or if it did it wouldn’t last 2 hours. 

I can get behind this except for Military Ops pause. Because China and Russia would love that. 

"So no one's manning their defense systems? Cool."

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Posted
1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

Pay ATC - Yes

Ground private aviation - Yes

Fuck those GA guys.

Using the terms "GA" or "private planes" is a hugely broad brush because it's not just private jets. There is absolutely GA low-hanging fruit that, in my opinion, should be grounded first in the event of a shutdown. For example there's a shitload of Cessna 172 and Cherokee student pilots clogging up the system, requesting VFR flight following and a Class Bravo clearance for their flight from Denton to Waco. Not to mention their departure tower is already handling 4 touch-n-go's in the pattern (half of which want a short approach) and 5 in line waiting for takeoff. That should be the first to get cut and would help alleviate both tower and enroute ATC: no pattern work at a towered field and VFR on your own. Another would be instrument students who want to knock out 4 practice approaches on a single IFR flight plan (each with the published miss please!) at Conroe, Hooks, and then Sugarland. Those take up far more ATC bandwidth and patience than a Gulfstream on a standard departure/arrival whose going to get in/out of the area quickly.

After that you could work your way up through grounding piston, then turboprop, etc. using either engine type or MTOW, maybe even adding a Part 91 vs. 135 element to it. Point being if a government shutdown forces us to start grounding aircraft, there are many different ways to split up the GA world that would have a meaningful impact on alleviating ATC's job. And the private jets would likely be quite far down that list. (Except Teterboro, that's its own animal and no idea how to manage that through a shutdown except grounding flights). 

1 hour ago, Your Mom said:

Make it be a real shutdown so they try harder to avoid it.  I would go further and say not only don’t pay fed employees, don’t have them come in to work at all. All air travel stops. All military ops pause.  All fed offices close. Tell the airlines they can’t fly.  Billions would be at stake instantly and the shutdown would likely never happen or if it did it wouldn’t last 2 hours. 

Agree 1,000% with this.

Posted
2 hours ago, Your Mom said:

I’m as affected by these ATC troubles as anyone but a shutdown needs to be a shutdown.   Otherwise there’s no incentive to work for compromise.  Start paying everyone and that’s how you make it last longer.

Make it be a real shutdown so they try harder to avoid it.  I would go further and say not only don’t pay fed employees, don’t have them come in to work at all. All air travel stops. All military ops pause.  All fed offices close. Tell the airlines they can’t fly.  Billions would be at stake instantly and the shutdown would likely never happen or if it did it wouldn’t last 2 hours. 

And if everything did shut down, it might be an eye-opener for the sizable chunk of the population that claims they get no benefit from the federal government.  

(But probably not.)

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Posted
16 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

We don’t have to have shut downs. Germany has a law that funds the government at certain levels even if no new budget is agreed. Nothing prevents Congress from reforming the 1974 budget act

Just like nothing prevents congress from doing anything, other than being Congress. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

We can't even stop the dipshit reps and Senators from getting paid during a shutdown.

That's the group that has to be cut off the second a shutdown starts.

This.

If they want to fuck around, they should fuck around with their own paychecks first.

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Posted
27 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Any AG at any time could issue a new one that says “we re-examined this and it turns out we were wrong in 1980. If Congress doesn’t pass a budget we will keep paying employees on credit and meeting ongoing obligations until they do.”

 

It sounds like you're saying my girlfriend and her financial habits would make a great AG.  What could possibly go wrong with that?

Posted
7 hours ago, horn4life said:

I do NOT want to go cloak room on this.  I really just want to know if you think airports are such important infrastructure to the public that they should be paid during shutdowns?

And do you think that Private Jets (low passenger counts) should or should not have the same access to the flight path as commercial airlines during periods of flight restrictions?

 

My personal feeling is yes, they should be paid as the overall threat to economic activity, makes me feel like Air traffic controllers are essential.  Conversely, I think that the first flights to lose access to the flight path should be private planes.  Simply as their are a lot of alternative landing places for smaller airlines, that could be utilized.  The same cannot be said for commercial airlines.  I just think you start off restricting the flights with the fewest passengers is the most logical way to manage such a crisis in the future.

 

 

 

You understand that the smaller airports still often have air traffic control towers, and that even if the private jets were to land and depart from uncontrolled airports that they’d have to get clearances and services to operate above 18,000 and near mid to large towered airports?

Private jets don’t just takeoff, talk to no one and then land without ATC services. 

Posted
1 minute ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Private jets don’t just takeoff, talk to no one and then land without ATC services. 

I think they should try it out for a few weeks. If Elmo, Zuck or any other oligarch crashes, that’s a bonus. 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

I think they should try it out for a few weeks. If Elmo, Zuck or any other oligarch crashes, that’s a bonus. 

Honestly, the private jets are so far ahead of airliners with regard to tech that they’d probably be fine winging it. 

Posted

I  think it should be one or the other.  Either ATC and TSA get paid during a shutdown as essential employees or everything needs to just flat out close so there are real risks to a deadline so all the worthless politicians would never let it get this far.  Because it's bullshit for all of these people we NEED to work to continue to show up without a paycheck.   Saying this as someone currently on a flight to LGA.  I thanked and chatted with TSA folks (minimal lines at DAL tonight) and they are hopeful and being told if bill signed soon they will get checks no later than Monday.  

Posted

They should be paid or shut the whole thing down. No one should have to show up on a promise of getting paid at some point in the future. That’s not the way this would work.

As far as private, I’m fine limiting at the largest airports but past that it would be everyone or no one in my eyes. Park them all or let them all fly. I fly 2-3 times a month and rarely if ever use a major airport. I generally use the smaller airports for 95% of my flights. I had to go into Dulles this week and the FBO’s were loaded down with jets. I bet there were 100+ Saudi (I’m guessing) military guys at the FBO on Monday going out on several Gulfstreams and planes were sitting everywhere they could find a place to put them.

Posted

No government employees should be paid during a government shutdown, including legislators, judges, etc. American workers should sack up and not go into work if they’re not being paid.  Bringing the whole economy to its knees in short order would help end this nonsense. There are not enough consequences to a government shutdown now.

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Posted

I understand the desire for total shutdown but it will never be that way, because of a variety of reasons. the Military in particular.  But in this shutdown they were paid by a political donor correct?  But the military should always get paid, and anyone that is forced to go to work, should get paid, period.  IF NOT, there should not be any repercussions for workers that decline to come to work.  Of course if they don't come to work they won't get paid.  But it seems unreasonable to fire somebody for not showing up for a job that is potentially forcing them to destroy their credit rating?

The plane thing is a no brainer.  Get rid of the least economically impacting flights, exactly the ones NOT initially targeted for reduction.  I simply do not understand the logic involved in deciding that shutting down commercial airlines first and not other less impactful flights. It was stupid from any perspective. If your goal is to do right by the amercian taxpayer.

Posted
5 minutes ago, horn4life said:

But in this shutdown they were paid by a political donor correct?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.   No.  They were not.  He allegedly contributed something like $130 million, which would pay each service member like $100.

That money, if it was actually sent, did not go to pay any soldier anyway.  It almost certainly went to pay some sort of special no-bid contract, whereby "Trump Military Services Inc." provided "consulting services" to the Pentagon, which of course cannot be discussed because, umm, they're Classified, got $130 million cash, free and clear.

Y'all really don't get that we're in an open kleptocracy now, do you?

Posted

I believe a shutdown should be a shutdown. All spice stops flowing. No bullets to troops. Bases go dark. Courts close. No employees of any kind are allowed to work except elected officials. The creeping expansion of "essential" employees and work is bullshit. If Congress and the President don't want to do their job, fine, but the country should feel the effects, full stop. 

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Posted
22 hours ago, Jerry Callo said:

Air traffic control should be turned over to a private, non-profit corporation.

This. 

 

5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I believe a shutdown should be a shutdown. All spice stops flowing. No bullets to troops. Bases go dark. Courts close. No employees of any kind are allowed to work except elected officials. The creeping expansion of "essential" employees and work is bullshit. If Congress and the President don't want to do their job, fine, but the country should feel the effects, full stop. 

Agreed, but I also don’t think the government should ever “shut down.” It’s nonsensical. 

Posted
35 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I believe a shutdown should be a shutdown. All spice stops flowing. No bullets to troops. Bases go dark. Courts close. No employees of any kind are allowed to work except elected officials. The creeping expansion of "essential" employees and work is bullshit. If Congress and the President don't want to do their job, fine, but the country should feel the effects, full stop. 

We have the same lawyer to blame for that. After he originally issued his extreme fatwa based on the 19th century anti-deficiency act, he moderated it by clarifying the “life, safety, etc.” exception that formalized making people work without pay. Instead, he made the threat of shutdown just painful enough that it became useful as a weapon. 

It can’t be said enough: before this opinion Congress would get lazy and let funding lapse before getting around to it. People just kept going.  No one cared. We could even argue things were more sane. 

This whole thing reminds me of dysfunctional self-harm rituals on a societal level. “If I fail this test I’ll cut myself, that will motivate me to study.” 
 

 

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Posted
38 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We have the same lawyer to blame for that. After he originally issued his extreme fatwa based on the 19th century anti-deficiency act, he moderated it by clarifying the “life, safety, etc.” exception that formalized making people work without pay. Instead, he made the threat of shutdown just painful enough that it became useful as a weapon. 

It can’t be said enough: before this opinion Congress would get lazy and let funding lapse before getting around to it. People just kept going.  No one cared. We could even argue things were more sane. 

This whole thing reminds me of dysfunctional self-harm rituals on a societal level. “If I fail this test I’ll cut myself, that will motivate me to study.” 
 

 

It's every bit as stupid as the debt ceiling. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

This. 

 

Agreed, but I also don’t think the government should ever “shut down.” It’s nonsensical. 

Feels like if they won't do their job, the last budget should just roll over with x% increase for inflation.  And it stands until congress does their job

Posted
21 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Feels like if they won't do their job, the last budget should just roll over with x% increase for inflation.  And it stands until congress does their job

That is actually more spending than a "clean" CR.  So what motivation would they have to start doing their job?

Withhold their pay,  if they don't accomplish a few basic tasks.  make them ineligible to serve or something

Posted
16 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Withhold their pay,  if they don't accomplish a few basic tasks.  make them ineligible to serve or something

Oh I totally agree on withholding their pay and benefits. But their inability to do their job should not hurt federal workers and other Americans who rely on the federal government. 

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