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Many custom-built concrete pools in the Austin area installed since 2017 are suffering from "Concrete Cancer"


AUS-97HORN

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Obviously most of the folks impacted by this have already recognized the problem, and maybe a few surlyites are suing everyone.

But consider this a FYI for the rest of us who might want to keep this in mind if you are buying a home over the next 5 years or so that comes with a pool

This KVUE article today is the 3rd story I have read in the last 5 weeks about this issue that basically popped up all around the Austin area but seems to so far only be limited to newer pool builds. going as far back as 2017, but really becoming prominent since 2019

The super short version of the problem is it looks like many of the custom pool builders (including a lot of the previously higher-reviewed and longer in business companies) were somehow using concrete missing a key ingredient needed if concrete is going to be in contact with water.

 

Quote

Experts say ASR happens when concrete isn't mixed correctly and lacks a material called "fly ash."

Water actually makes the concrete expand and crack and, in most cases, the only way to fix it is to demolish an impacted pool and completely rebuild – at double, even triple, the original cost of construction.

"This is not just affecting pool owners," attorney Michael Williams said. "Most of these pool builders do not pour their own concrete. They hire subs to do the concrete."

Williams represents clients on all sides of this issue, both pool customers and contractors. "It's a really strange thing, and I don't know that we know yet how it came to be," Williams said.

Pool builders like Bo Barnett said the "concrete cancer" has been found in pools built between 2017 and 2023. During that time, Barnett, like many other pool builders, saw a boom in customers, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The KVUE Defenders found hundreds of lawsuits filed against pool construction companies and concrete contractors in Central Texas.

Barnett and Williams believe there are potentially thousands of affected pools.

"I think that what's going on right now is the tip of the iceberg," William said. "I think that it could be 10 times bigger."

Pool construction experts said the only way to confirm whether a pool has "concrete cancer" is to pay for a core sample to be removed from the pool and analyzed by a lab, which can cost thousands of dollars and take weeks.

Also, if you plan on hiring a pool builder, make sure the concrete contractor can prove they’re using the right concrete mix.

And if you plan on buying a home with a pool and the pool was built in 2017 or later, look for signs of “concrete cancer,” such as cracking, white build-up around the cracks and separation from stairs and pool decking.

If no signs exist, find out who built the pool and which concrete contractor the builder used. You can check with those companies and look for lawsuits against them filed in your county.

 

to me the internet layman, it sounds like the concrete providers either skipped adding the key ingredient to save money, or some idiot manager got lazy and used a generic concrete mixture on most pool concrete orders.

 

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This is what happens when you allow a pool builder without a medical license to name an issue. Cancer occurs when the body's cells grow uncontrollably and spread to other parts of the body. I maintain, based on the photographic evidence provided above, that these concrete pools suffer from concrete fracture i.e. a crack or a break and not "cancer," because although Mr. Bo Barnett avows that the pools are terminal and cannot be treated, cancer does not necessarily require removal of the patient.

*Note: I am not licensed to practice medicine in the state of Texas or any other state.

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12 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

This is what happens when you allow a pool builder without a medical license to name an issue. Cancer occurs when the body's cells grow uncontrollably and spread to other parts of the body. I maintain, based on the photographic evidence provided above, that these concrete pools suffer from concrete fracture i.e. a crack or a break and not "cancer," because although Mr. Bo Barnett avows that the pools are terminal and cannot be treated, cancer does not necessarily require removal of the patient.

*Note: I am not licensed to practice medicine in the state of Texas or any other state.

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Concrete Cancer is the common term used for ASR. Problem is with the aggregate used in the mix. 

Inclusion of Class F fly ash helps limit the problem. Fly ash is the a byproduct of burning coal (i.e. power plants) which is now becoming limited. There are advancements in alternate materials (i.e. pozzolans) but are not readily available in abundant supply.

Key is locating and using non-reactive aggregate sources.

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2 minutes ago, Texas007 said:

Concrete Cancer is the common term used for ASR. Problem is with the aggregate used in the mix. 

Inclusion of Class F fly ash helps limit the problem. Fly ash is the a byproduct of burning coal (i.e. power plants) which is now becoming limited. There are advancements in alternate materials (i.e. pozzolans) but are not readily available in abundant supply.

Key is locating and using non-reactive aggregate sources.

I thought fly ash was ash that, you know, is....

pretty-fly-isolated-typography%C2%A090s-

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4 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Simple solution might be to just fill in the old pool with a thick layer of good material, sure, it'd be shallower, and I guess you'd have to provide helmets for anybody going off the diving board.

Ding Ding Ding. Probably only need a couple inches of overlay. 

UT Research paper discusses further: https://ita.sika.com/dam/dms/itgen/c/giannini paper.pdf 

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2 hours ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I am a concrete contractor, not a pool contractor.

There is a lot missing from that report. Enough for me to be skeptical.

Lots of concrete is poured without fly ash and it is more expensive, not less expensive than fly ash.

These pools were not poured with "concrete". They use shotcrete and they are sprayed.

There was a fly ash shortage during this time due to demand and a large cement plant in Dallas going down for an extended period which put a stress on the fly ash market since it is a partial substitute for cement in concrete mixes.

There are different classes of ash, so not sure which one is best but they are substituted freely.

Shot Crete is sprayed on with the water being added at the hose end area so the concrete products are not delivered in a ready mix drum type of truck, but a metered truck which proportions the components through a helical drive for mixing.

Cement and fly ash are kept separate in the truck.

Most pooll contractors hire out the shotcrete. Shotcrete guys do more than just pools. 

My guess is that are going to find a single ingredient source or contractor at fault, but I doubt fly ash is the cause of all of it.

Settle this for me and my wife:

See-mint

or

Seh-mint

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2 hours ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I am a concrete contractor, not a pool contractor.

There is a lot missing from that report. Enough for me to be skeptical.

Lots of concrete is poured without fly ash and it is more expensive, not less expensive than fly ash.

These pools were not poured with "concrete". They use shotcrete and they are sprayed.

There was a fly ash shortage during this time due to demand and a large cement plant in Dallas going down for an extended period which put a stress on the fly ash market since it is a partial substitute for cement in concrete mixes.

There are different classes of ash, so not sure which one is best but they are substituted freely.

Shot Crete is sprayed on with the water being added at the hose end area so the concrete products are not delivered in a ready mix drum type of truck, but a metered truck which proportions the components through a helical drive for mixing.

Cement and fly ash are kept separate in the truck.

Most pooll contractors hire out the shotcrete. Shotcrete guys do more than just pools. 

My guess is that are going to find a single ingredient source or contractor at fault, but I doubt fly ash is the cause of all of it.

 

Thanks for your input and all, but this concrete cancer issue is best left to medical professionals. 

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Does this effect gunite (mixed with water in the truck) or only shotcrete (mixed with water at the hose)?  I keep seeing shotcrete in these stories so hope it's limited to that since mine was built in 2020 with gunite.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Texas007 said:

Concrete Cancer is the common term used for ASR. Problem is with the aggregate used in the mix. 

Inclusion of Class F fly ash helps limit the problem. Fly ash is the a byproduct of burning coal (i.e. power plants) which is now becoming limited. There are advancements in alternate materials (i.e. pozzolans) but are not readily available in abundant supply.

Key is locating and using non-reactive aggregate sources.

Today I learned that composite materials that are not alive can be considered 'diseased.' Huh.

The next time I'm at a soirée where someone is discussing their pool, I'll have my ears open to hear if their pool has this affliction.

Edited by Mrs Whiggins
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20 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Today I learned that composite materials that are not alive can be considered 'diseased.' Huh.

I don't think they're "diseased" so much as they were selected for a job they're not good at (based on my 4 hours in this lifetime of doing stuff with concrete.)

For an analogy, suppose you're in a rough bar and there's about to be a knife fight. But instead of getting a ride-or-die knife-fighting friend to help you, you run out to the car, snatch your 3-year-old out of the kiddy-seat, slap an Opinel into his tiny hand, and then dwarf-heave him into the mayhem.

He'd get butchered, and it's not his fault. You gave him an Opinel, which is a fine knife for woodworking, but without even a trace of a hand guard, it was always going to end badly.

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3 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

This is what happens when you allow a pool builder without a medical license to name an issue. Cancer occurs when the body's cells grow uncontrollably and spread to other parts of the body. I maintain, based on the photographic evidence provided above, that these concrete pools suffer from concrete fracture i.e. a crack or a break and not "cancer," because although Mr. Bo Barnett avows that the pools are terminal and cannot be treated, cancer does not necessarily require removal of the patient.

*Note: I am not licensed to practice medicine in the state of Texas or any other state.

So, more like Concrete Osteoporosis?

 

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I don't think they're "diseased" so much as they were selected for a job they're not good at (based on my 4 hours in this lifetime of doing stuff with concrete.)
For an analogy, suppose you're in a rough bar and there's about to be a knife fight. But instead of getting a ride-or-die knife-fighting friend to help you, you run out to the car, snatch your 3-year-old out of the kiddy-seat, slap an Opinel into his tiny hand, and then dwarf-heave him into the mayhem.
He'd get butchered, and it's not his fault. You gave him an Opinel, which is a fine knife for woodworking, but without even a trace of a hand guard, it was always going to end badly.

The term dwarf-heave does not get used near enough in today’s world
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2 hours ago, PantsTent said:

Does this effect gunite (mixed with water in the truck) or only shotcrete (mixed with water at the hose)?  I keep seeing shotcrete in these stories so hope it's limited to that since mine was built in 2020 with gunite.

 

This was the first story that I heard of the problem its a courtroom recording from a WilCo lawsuit.    I cant tell you when or where, but I am almost positive the phrase "gunite" being used multiple times as the two defendants tried to claim they didnt need to fix the issue

 

 

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Nothing to add but this reminded of when aggy fucked up Allen’s new stadium and they had to cancel an entire season of home games. 
Will forever make me laugh. 

Same when they made their Olympic pool like an inch or so too short


Troph. What do you mean insurance has already exhausted their payouts. Like there was a “ pool’ of money and it’s all gone now?

Feel bad for these peeps. It’s gotta suck
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9 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Obviously most of the folks impacted by this have already recognized the problem, and maybe a few surlyites are suing everyone.

But consider this a FYI for the rest of us who might want to keep this in mind if you are buying a home over the next 5 years or so that comes with a pool

This KVUE article today is the 3rd story I have read in the last 5 weeks about this issue that basically popped up all around the Austin area but seems to so far only be limited to newer pool builds. going as far back as 2017, but really becoming prominent since 2019

The super short version of the problem is it looks like many of the custom pool builders (including a lot of the previously higher-reviewed and longer in business companies) were somehow using concrete missing a key ingredient needed if concrete is going to be in contact with water.

 

 

to me the internet layman, it sounds like the concrete providers either skipped adding the key ingredient to save money, or some idiot manager got lazy and used a generic concrete mixture on most pool concrete orders.

 

dc84cd0d-8ed7-4752-b217-c725d14af04b_192

c8c5befa-c7cc-433c-b8c6-59d9e61d9530_192

Is this your pool?  Why do you give a fuck?

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22 hours ago, troph said:

I’ve had clients (not because of the pool) that suffered this - awful. Most insurers have already paid out their limits. 

Insurance companies are denying a lot of these claims now under a silica exclusion.

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19 hours ago, Upgrayedd said:

Is this your pool?  Why do you give a fuck?

no asshole I dont have a pool here in Austin.

I give a fuck because ive now heard about the issue 3 times in less than 5 weeks, and maybe because this is a Longhorn site based out of Austin with a fuckload of Austin residents who live here. Aand its a problem that is being described as possibly "thousands" of central Texas pools that might be impacted 

Its fucking relevenant to folks who might be looking at buying a home with a pool, especially since the house buying season started about 6 weeks ago. 

 

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On 4/13/2024 at 12:17 PM, joe dirt said:

i’m one of them and it fucking sucks. 

I have three friends that all built pools during COVID and every single one of them is dealing with this issue.  It's not normal, it's a massive mistake by whomever was responsible for that part of the build. 

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On 4/12/2024 at 8:24 PM, AUS-97HORN said:

This was the first story that I heard of the problem its a courtroom recording from a WilCo lawsuit.    I cant tell you when or where, but I am almost positive the phrase "gunite" being used multiple times as the two defendants tried to claim they didnt need to fix the issue

 

 

Oh fuck me. This is the asshole who built my pool and then went out of business. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2024 at 10:44 PM, Updawg said:


Troph. What do you mean insurance has already exhausted their payouts. Like there was a “ pool’ of money and it’s all gone now?

Feel bad for these peeps. It’s gotta suck

I'll answer.  See below

On 4/13/2024 at 5:42 PM, TexEx15 said:

Insurance companies are denying a lot of these claims now under a silica exclusion.

  • The silica exclusion was apparently written into the policies to prevent medical claims for lung damage due to inhaling silica dust during construction.  Apparently they think the wording is broad enough to deny Alkali Silica Reaction (ASR) claims since Silica is in the name.
  • There are usually multiple parties involved.  The Builder or general contractor carries general liability policy to be able to get permits and build things and then the supplier that is subcontracted to pour the gunnite or shotcrete. Many pool builders are now denying claims and saying it was the installer's fault.  I bet the next step is the installers go after the aggregate suppliers.
  • The insurance policies usually have coverage limits.
  • Not an expert but the difference between gunnite and shotcrete is that gunnite is sand based and shotcrete is aggregate based.  Gunnite requires about 10% fly ash and Shotcrete about 25% to lower the pH of the mix to avoid ASR. One of them is mixed in the truck and the other is mixed as it is shot out of the hose.  I think shotcrete is the latter.  Again, not an expert.  That shotcrete requires more fly ask could be a contributing factor.

 

On 4/16/2024 at 7:29 AM, capnamerca said:

Oh fuck me. This is the asshole who built my pool and then went out of business. 

When did you build it?

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2 hours ago, TexasEd said:

When did you build it?

Completed August of 2019. We're definitely in the danger zone.

We don't have any of the obvious, horrendous cracking / separating lke in the pictures I've seen; really, we have almost no cracking whatsoever, neither inside the pool nor outside on the the superstructure. I do have SOME calcification buildup in a few spots, but I also have shit water. So I'm hopeful that I dodged it somehow. The Premier Pools main office has been helpful in the past getting someone to come out and work with me on a few things (not covered under warranty, of course), so I'm gonna reach out to them for advice. Fingers crossed.

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This problem really started bubbling up about a year ago and dates back several years.  It really sucks.  A good friend of mine built his pool in late 2019.  Super lucky to have it in the ground before Covid.  They started noticing big cracks about two years ago.  Lawsuit.  Settlement.  Finally demo'd the pool last fall.  The settlement didn't come close to covering the increase in costs over the four year time span.  He saw the well drying up and figured it was better to get something than nothing.  Right now, he just has a big hole in his backyard.  Trying to figure out if he can even afford (or wants) another pool at this point.

Another friend of mine is a structural engineer.  They designed a big house in West Lake Hills.  Part of his scope included the design of the pier system that supported the pool that was kind of hanging off a cliff.  You guessed it.  That pool has failed.  This homeowner has much deeper pockets and won't settle for pennies on the dollar like my other buddy.  That pool contractor filed for bankruptcy, so now they're suing the house GC, the architect and my buddy the structural engineer for latent defects.  Basically going after anyone who has an insurance policy that may cover the damages.  

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