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Posted

So what does this judge expect the clinics to do with the current stock of embryos in deep freeze? Disposing of them is murder, keep them forever? Who is going to pay for it and isn't that technically illegally detaining someone ?

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Posted

I just love the reference in that opinion to the embryos as small people. 

Yea, though they were smol and frozen, and shivered in the depths of the clinic at Fourth and Main, I say to you that the righteous Alabama Man will protect thee because God gets mad if his image is effaced by the destruction of smols.

Posted
17 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

How many posters here agree with Alabama but won't say it?

We're the toxic ones though, the cabal.

The only thing that I will ever agree with Alabama on is that Florida can fuck right off.

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Posted

If those embryos have been there for more than 18 years, can they vote? Is the pic on the ID a slide of the sperm or ovum? How do we know how they identify? 

Posted
59 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

This ruling is just in time for tax season.  Gonna go make a sperm donation then claim 200,000,000 dependants.

The science is sound.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

I mean, look--isn't that the completely predictable outcome?

I can probably contract a sufficient waiver that would insulate a client against a wrongful-death lawsuit of the type that brought about this ruling.  But that does nothing to insulate a client against a potential criminal prosecution.  And this is Alabama--there's definitely the potential for a criminal prosecution.

But here's the real fucking deal: if you're a woman who is (or might be) pregnant, you'd do well not to go anywhere near Alabama.  It's kind of like a roller coaster in that way.  Because if you have a glass of wine or take a draft on a cigarette or  slurp down an oyster, you could be charged with injury to a child.  Or ride on a motorcycle or a car without your seatbelt on, and you could face a charge of child endangerment.  Because . . . and here's really the point . . . as a pregnant woman in Alabama, you do not have full civil rights.  You are--and this is the important part--not a full human; you are an incubator.


all that is coming soon to Texas

Posted

Heartbreaking story from a Tennessee mom and dad who have struggled with addiction most of their lives.  Mom, who has already had two children taken from her, is forced by the state to deliver a baby that she's in no position to care for.

https://projects.propublica.org/the-year-after-a-denied-abortion/?utm_medium=10today.us.wed.rd.20240221.436.2&utm_source=email&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=email-2022

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Posted
Just now, crash_davis said:

When all of the OB/GYN leave Alabama, they'll blame it on woke doctors. 

Fuck fake christians. Fuck you for being too stupid for the nation's own good.

That's another predictable result.

Let me give you another: serious brain-drain in Alabama.  If you're a couple who has fertility problems and the wherewithal to pay for fertility treatments, are you going to continue to live in Alabama?  Fuck no--if you have the financial resources to afford fertility treatments, you have the ability to take your talents to Georgia or California or Massachusetts.  And conversely, if you're a woman who has an education and may consider possibly being something other than a baby-incubator, you're going to seriously think about locating your life and career elsewhere.

Alabama (and any other state that follows its lead) is going to go through some things over the next decade.

Posted
1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

That's another predictable result.

Let me give you another: serious brain-drain in Alabama.  If you're a couple who has fertility problems and the wherewithal to pay for fertility treatments, are you going to continue to live in Alabama?  Fuck no--if you have the financial resources to afford fertility treatments, you have the ability to take your talents to Georgia or California or Massachusetts.  And conversely, if you're a woman who has an education and may consider possibly being something other than a baby-incubator, you're going to seriously think about locating your life and career elsewhere.

Alabama (and any other state that follows its lead) is going to go through some things over the next decade.

These are all good points. However, indulge the red state males only women-hating club counter argument:

1. Brain drain--we didn't want all them ivory tower snotty people anyway. They're weird, actually read books, and can figure exact change even though they have a bank card. No one needs all them useless degrees that don't make money anyhow and critical thinking is only one step removed from critical race and that just leads to BLM and Antifa in our state.

2. The ability to take your talents to Georgia or California or Massachusetts--not Georgia, they're going to go right along with 'Bama just as soon as Marjorie figures out that in vitro is not a nutritional supplement and can lean on her state legislature to propose a bill.

3. If you're a woman who has an education and may consider possibly being something other than a baby-incubator, you're going to seriously think about locating your life and career elsewhere. Just stop right there. First off, no woman should be educated enough to where she can think seriously. We like that Afghan education policy but we're willing to extend it to a high school diploma if the gal doesn't get knocked up first. That's why we don't want women going to college anyway, then they can't leave because where the hell they gonna go with no education , all these kids that I don't really take care of, and no money? But if a guy decides he needs a new model and gets a  divorce then she can go be poor like God intended; serves her right for only having girl babies when she knows sons are better and I wanted sons. What's that about genetics? Uppity female telling me how chromosomes work. Us alpha males don't need those Xs and Ys, we don't need the ABCs, we got deez..........nuts.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

These are all good points. However, indulge the red state males only women-hating club counter argument:

1. Brain drain--we didn't want all them ivory tower snotty people anyway. They're weird, actually read books, and can figure exact change even though they have a bank card. No one needs all them useless degrees that don't make money anyhow and critical thinking is only one step removed from critical race and that just leads to BLM and Antifa in our state.

2. The ability to take your talents to Georgia or California or Massachusetts--not Georgia, they're going to go right along with 'Bama just as soon as Marjorie figures out that in vitro is not a nutritional supplement and can lean on her state legislature to propose a bill.

3. If you're a woman who has an education and may consider possibly being something other than a baby-incubator, you're going to seriously think about locating your life and career elsewhere. Just stop right there. First off, no woman should be educated enough to where she can think seriously. We like that Afghan education policy but we're willing to extend it to a high school diploma if the gal doesn't get knocked up first. That's why we don't want women going to college anyway, then they can't leave because where the hell they gonna go with no education , all these kids that I don't really take care of, and no money? But if a guy decides he needs a new model and gets a  divorce then she can go be poor like God intended; serves her right for only having girl babies when she knows sons are better and I wanted sons. What's that about genetics? Uppity female telling me how chromosomes work. Us alpha males don't need those Xs and Ys, we don't need the ABCs, we got deez..........nuts.

Oh, agreed that's Alabama's goal.  And they'll achieve it.

That's why GOLL said it's going to be an interesting decade for them.  Because educated households are the the drivers of the bulk of economic activity and prosperity (see, e.g., cities being the economic engines of our country).  If Alabama wants to run off all of its MBAs (women, or male MBAs who are likely married to educated women), and other degreed individuals, groovy.  We'll see how their economy does when its driven mostly by the number of people working at a Dollar General or Circle K.

Human capital is one of the biggest sources of prosperity.  Alabama is self-selecting for the lowest-yield human capital out there.  FAFO.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, agreed that's Alabama's goal.  And they'll achieve it.

That's why GOLL said it's going to be an interesting decade for them.  Because educated households are the the drivers of the bulk of economic activity and prosperity (see, e.g., cities being the economic engines of our country).  If Alabama wants to run off all of its MBAs (women, or male MBAs who are likely married to educated women), and other degreed individuals, groovy.  We'll see how their economy does when its driven mostly by the number of people working at a Dollar General or Circle K.

Human capital is one of the biggest sources of prosperity.  Alabama is self-selecting for the lowest-yield human capital out there.  FAFO.

They are, but Alabama is playing the game of wait and see. (See if the country is still fifty states by the time the effects of the drain are felt). It's not like they could regress a whole lot farther, and it pains me to say that, even though I have no ties to the state.

But once that human capital is born, to some--those humans are disposable.

Posted
35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, agreed that's Alabama's goal.  And they'll achieve it.

That's why GOLL said it's going to be an interesting decade for them.  Because educated households are the the drivers of the bulk of economic activity and prosperity (see, e.g., cities being the economic engines of our country).  If Alabama wants to run off all of its MBAs (women, or male MBAs who are likely married to educated women), and other degreed individuals, groovy.  We'll see how their economy does when its driven mostly by the number of people working at a Dollar General or Circle K.

Human capital is one of the biggest sources of prosperity.  Alabama is self-selecting for the lowest-yield human capital out there.  FAFO.

And let's not sleep on the fact that the majority of degrees are now going to women.  

Posted
1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

2. The ability to take your talents to Georgia or California or Massachusetts--not Georgia, they're going to go right along with 'Bama just as soon as Marjorie figures out that in vitro is not a nutritional supplement and can lean on her state legislature to propose a bill.

 

Grammy Awards Applause GIF by Recording Academy / GRAMMYs

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Posted (edited)

Working at a fertility hospital yesterday and today. Doc im working with today says UAB has suspended all fertility shit indefinitely.

 

Says he believes that under Bamas new law, that if a transfer doesnt take or it become a miscarriage, its murder? Is that correct?

 

 

edit: didnt see it posted on previous page

Edited by GreenspointTexas
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Posted (edited)

I don't normally post op-eds, but Charles Blow gets it. Again, I'm glad this is all beginning to sink in with the MSM.

Alabama’s I.V.F. Ruling Shows Our Slide Toward Theocracy

If you don’t think this country is sliding toward theocracy, you’re not paying attention.

The drumbeat of incidents moving us ever closer to the seemingly inescapable future is so steady and frequent that we’ve developed outrage fatigue — we’ve grown numb.

For instance, on Tuesday, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are children, and that destruction of those embryos, even by accident, is subject to the state’s Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. In his concurring opinion, the chief justice of the court, Tom Parker, wrote, “Even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory.”

The ruling could mean less access to reproductive care in Alabama if specialists in the field of in vitro fertilization simply choose to practice in states that don’t threaten their efforts.

There have been cases before in which embryos were destroyed as a result of negligence, but the Alabama decision significantly ups the ante. It essentially turns cryopreservation tanks into frozen nurseries.

The idea is absurd and unscientific. It is instead tied to a religious crusade to downgrade the personhood of women by conferring personhood on frozen embryos.

I called Sean Tipton, the chief advocacy and policy officer at the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, who told me: “One of the points in the abortion debate is, ‘Is it really about abortion or is it about controlling women and controlling sex?’ And this clearly exposes the idea that it’s not just about abortion.” He said, “There is no more pro-life medical treatment available, ever, than in vitro fertilization, and this decision clearly threatens the ability for that to continue.”

Control of women’s bodies is the endgame. And some religious conservatives won’t stop until that goal is achieved. For that reason, intervening victories — like the overturning of Roe v. Wade — will never be seen as enough; they will only intensify a blinding sense of righteousness.

There is an array of reproductive rights cases percolating around the country that could make their way to the Supreme Court — the same court that Donald Trump brags about transforming, having appointed a third of its justices. The legal and political battles over these issues are far from over, and the preservation of women’s remaining rights is far from certain.

The only thing that seems to be temporarily stopping congressional Republicans from pushing for a national abortion ban — after years of arguing that their goal was merely to allow individual states to make their own laws — is that the issue of reproductive choice is an electoral loser for their party.

But now Trump is reportedly talking privately about supporting a national 16-week abortion ban, with some exceptions.

This is what many of his supporters want, and many of them believe he has been singularly chosen by God to advance their theocratic aims. It’s one of the reasons that they overlook Trump’s glaring flaws and the fact that Trump himself is not a particularly religious man.

It’s worth noting that many of the right’s efforts, including on the issue of abortion, are led by men who want births but can’t give birth, reflecting an imbalance between power and expectation that may carry over to a younger generation. A fascinating new report from Pew Research found that although men and women 18 to 34 “are about equally likely to say they want to get married,” 57 percent of young men say they want children one day, compared to just 45 percent of young women.

Abortion is just one front on which this religious fight is being waged. As of last week, the A.C.L.U. was tracking 437 anti-L.G.B.T.Q. bills being considered by state legislatures.

Then there’s the alarming effort by conservative groups to transform and reshape the federal government in ways that curtail American freedoms, but also, according to Politico, to bring Christian nationalist ideas into a second Trump administration.

To those advancing these ideas, the will of God counts more than the will of the American people, even when Americans object or disagree.

Reportedly, one idea among the various proposals is invoking the Insurrection Act on Trump’s first day back in office to facilitate deployment of the military against protesters.

We are perilously close to all this becoming a reality, potentially aided and abetted by disaffected Democratic voters.

I’m talking about many Democrats with single-issue objections to President Biden — whether it’s opposition to his position on the Israel-Hamas war, disappointments about the overall state of the economy or concerns about the president’s age — who haven’t committed to supporting his re-election, who don’t seem to see that in November the country faces one of the most existential electoral decisions it ever has faced.

If these Democrats decide to punish Biden by sitting it out, they could wind up performing one of the greatest acts of self-immolation in recent political history: abandoning an administration committed to the protection of democracy and possibly allowing the ascension of a theocracy intent on destroying the very freedoms that progressives cherish.

Edited by bolverk
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Posted

Saw a clip of Nikki Haley saying she thinks every embryo is a baby. Saw another clip of her saying she had a child by IVF. She didn’t say what happened to her unused embryos after that pregnancy. Someone should ask her. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't normally post op-eds, but Charles Blow gets it. Again, I'm glad this is all beginning to sink in with the MSM.

Alabama’s I.V.F. Ruling Shows Our Slide Toward Theocracy

If you don’t think this country is sliding toward theocracy, you’re not paying attention.

The drumbeat of incidents moving us ever closer to the seemingly inescapable future is so steady and frequent that we’ve developed outrage fatigue — we’ve grown numb.

For instance, on Tuesday, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are children, and that destruction of those embryos, even by accident, is subject to the state’s Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. In his concurring opinion, the chief justice of the court, Tom Parker, wrote, “Even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory.”

The ruling could mean less access to reproductive care in Alabama if specialists in the field of in vitro fertilization simply choose to practice in states that don’t threaten their efforts.

There have been cases before in which embryos were destroyed as a result of negligence, but the Alabama decision significantly ups the ante. It essentially turns cryopreservation tanks into frozen nurseries.

The idea is absurd and unscientific. It is instead tied to a religious crusade to downgrade the personhood of women by conferring personhood on frozen embryos.

I called Sean Tipton, the chief advocacy and policy officer at the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, who told me: “One of the points in the abortion debate is, ‘Is it really about abortion or is it about controlling women and controlling sex?’ And this clearly exposes the idea that it’s not just about abortion.” He said, “There is no more pro-life medical treatment available, ever, than in vitro fertilization, and this decision clearly threatens the ability for that to continue.”

Control of women’s bodies is the endgame. And some religious conservatives won’t stop until that goal is achieved. For that reason, intervening victories — like the overturning of Roe v. Wade — will never be seen as enough; they will only intensify a blinding sense of righteousness.

There is an array of reproductive rights cases percolating around the country that could make their way to the Supreme Court — the same court that Donald Trump brags about transforming, having appointed a third of its justices. The legal and political battles over these issues are far from over, and the preservation of women’s remaining rights is far from certain.

The only thing that seems to be temporarily stopping congressional Republicans from pushing for a national abortion ban — after years of arguing that their goal was merely to allow individual states to make their own laws — is that the issue of reproductive choice is an electoral loser for their party.

But now Trump is reportedly talking privately about supporting a national 16-week abortion ban, with some exceptions.

This is what many of his supporters want, and many of them believe he has been singularly chosen by God to advance their theocratic aims. It’s one of the reasons that they overlook Trump’s glaring flaws and the fact that Trump himself is not a particularly religious man.

It’s worth noting that many of the right’s efforts, including on the issue of abortion, are led by men who want births but can’t give birth, reflecting an imbalance between power and expectation that may carry over to a younger generation. A fascinating new report from Pew Research found that although men and women 18 to 34 “are about equally likely to say they want to get married,” 57 percent of young men say they want children one day, compared to just 45 percent of young women.

Abortion is just one front on which this religious fight is being waged. As of last week, the A.C.L.U. was tracking 437 anti-L.G.B.T.Q. bills being considered by state legislatures.

Then there’s the alarming effort by conservative groups to transform and reshape the federal government in ways that curtail American freedoms, but also, according to Politico, to bring Christian nationalist ideas into a second Trump administration.

To those advancing these ideas, the will of God counts more than the will of the American people, even when Americans object or disagree.

Reportedly, one idea among the various proposals is invoking the Insurrection Act on Trump’s first day back in office to facilitate deployment of the military against protesters.

We are perilously close to all this becoming a reality, potentially aided and abetted by disaffected Democratic voters.

I’m talking about many Democrats with single-issue objections to President Biden — whether it’s opposition to his position on the Israel-Hamas war, disappointments about the overall state of the economy or concerns about the president’s age — who haven’t committed to supporting his re-election, who don’t seem to see that in November the country faces one of the most existential electoral decisions it ever has faced.

If these Democrats decide to punish Biden by sitting it out, they could wind up performing one of the greatest acts of self-immolation in recent political history: abandoning an administration committed to the protection of democracy and possibly allowing the ascension of a theocracy intent on destroying the very freedoms that progressives cherish.

That link leads to this page in this thread, not to the article you’re quoting. 

Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

If an embryo is a human being, does that mean all men are really trans women? And trans women really just de-transitioned?

Does a frozen embryo have the right to be unfrozen?

Do we rescue embryos in fallopian tubes?

*Trans men, sorry. At one point in human embryonic development (all mammalian embryonic development, actually), every embryo is a female.

Edited by TheRealRonWeaver?
Don't post while high.
Posted

Primary sex determination is chromosomal in mammals. The genetic makeup does not change. The presence of a Y chromosome results in phenotypic differentiation as early as 6-8 weeks. Before differentiation it is not really accurate to call the embryo phenotypically female. The phenotypic hallmarks of sex expression (e.g., estrogen producing ovaries or testosterone producing testes) develop later, whether the chromosomes are XX or XY. 

Posted
Just now, Anastasis said:

Primary sex determination is chromosomal in mammals. The genetic makeup does not change. The presence of a Y chromosome results in phenotypic differentiation as early as 6-8 weeks. Before differentiation it is not really accurate to call the embryo phenotypically female. The phenotypic hallmarks of sex expression (e.g., estrogen producing ovaries or testosterone producing testes) develop later, whether the chromosomes are XX or XY. 

What is a woman?

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Posted
Working at a fertility hospital yesterday and today. Doc im working with today says UAB has suspended all fertility shit indefinitely.
 
Says he believes that under Bamas new law, that if a transfer doesnt take or it become a miscarriage, its murder? Is that correct?
 
 
edit: didnt see it posted on previous page

Yep/. Also, you’re leaving out the potential charges for mass murder when fertilized embryos are destroyed. They can’t be frozen forever and currently, a lot of couple donate them for medical/scientific research.
Posted
49 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

With all due respect, there is one group, and one group only "driving" it -- Christians and the highly religious, incel or not.

True - I should have said they are piggybacking on incels.  Without the incels, they have less power. The incels are helping to drive the narrative and trying to make these attitudes seem more widespread than they are.

Buy yeah, the Christian groups have been openly gunning for birth control since the abortion ruling. I’ve posted the links to the various rulings elsewhere in the past, but with abortion falling, other Supreme Court rulings about birth control, gay sex/marriage that relied on each other could fall.



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