Jump to content

Israel


SmokeyBear1861

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If you are a jew, which of those options do you pick? 

I was thinking about that question at 2 in the morning when I was posting and trying to think of outside of the box solutions.  One idea was to invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.  Not all of them will come but it's a way out for some from the cycle of violence. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I'm an American Jew.  I've visited Israel once but have no real connection to the country, no family over there, nobody that I remain in regular contact with, etc.  Like many other American Jews, I'm sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and not a fan of how the Israeli government has handled that situation.  May just be my limited perspective, but in recent years I've noticed a real shift in sympathy towards the Palestinians and a desire from the rest of the world for the Israeli government to figure out a solution that  works.

Are you me? I’m still at this thinking. I can separate Palestinians from Hamas. I can separate Republicans from Americans, the ADP from Germans, regular Israelis from Bibi, etc. 

Both “governments” have been total ass and completely screwed over their citizens. Both sides need to change, and change a lot and compromise. But I cannot fully flip over to Israel’s side bc they treated Palestinians like sub-humans. And Bibi has basically acknowledged that behavior is good for him/Likud. Gross

Edited by Js1
  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I personally would have no issue with the story of a slave uprising that slaughtered the entire family of their captors. I find it unconscionable that anyone would have a problem with that. 

Nat Turner is not beloved in the South today, but I'm sure that feeling of animosity is dying as the generations pass. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And that's the end conclusion.  We're too far down this road for anyone to turn back.  Some things are irreparably broken.  This is one of those things.  The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction.  The jews will fight back, regularly being overly heavy-handed, provoking more response.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm legitimately curious if you think Israel should bear any blame for this aspect of the conflict. You seem very much focused on "they want to eradicate the Jews." Even if that is true for many (which I think is way overbroad), don't you think there is some logic to that belief for people who have lived under the oppressive thumb of Israel for decades? It's like abusing a dog for years then letting it lose and when it bites someone you have no choice but to put it down. The decision to put it down was probably the right call, but why should we ignore the circumstances that led to that outcome?

Edited by 'stache
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LCHorn said:

I was thinking about that question at 2 in the morning when I was posting and trying to think of outside of the box solutions.  One idea was to invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.  Not all of them will come but it's a way out for some from the cycle of violence. 

Non starter...  GQP support for Israel exists only to ensure the Jews are returned to the Holy Land so that we can have the End Times.   You have to remember the GQP base were the ones cos-playing Nazis in Charlottesville chanting "We will not be replaced".    

Nevermind the fact that Israelis have fought for a homeland and they aren't likely to settle for UP Michigan or the like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction.

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. Plenty of people have fled Palestine as refugees, integrated into the societies of the safe places they have made their new homes, and all but a handful of those refugees have done anything to "seek extinction" of Jews.

If those refugees could feel safe in their ancestral homelands, many would prefer to return. The only reason they cannot feel safe is because the nation state with all the power has grown more brutal and inhuman. Give peace a meaningful chance here.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm legitimately curious if you think Israel should bear any blame for this aspect of the conflict. You seem very much focused on "they want to eradicate the Jews." Even if that is true for many (which I think is way overbroad), don't you think there is some logic to that belief for people who have lived under the oppressive thumb of Israel for decades? It's like abusing a dog for years then letting it lose and when it bites someone you have no choice but to put it down. The decision to put it down was probably the right call, but why should we ignore the circumstances that led to that outcome?

We absolutely should not ignore those circumstances. Like I said, the ultimate outcome here will be that one group ceases to exist, and the other is an abhorrent pariah state that committed genocide. Doesn’t matter which is which, flip them back and forth as many times as you want.
Neither side ends up any better than “we won and survived, but we are a criminal state and people who should be loathed by humanity for generations.” That’s the best-case scenario.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

... You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. ...

Have you by chance met BrisketTexan before or read any of his CR rants over the last few years?  He's been sharpening that axe for a good while now.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society and then imputing those sentiments to millions of people without any basis for doing so. Plenty of people have fled Palestine as refugees, integrated into the societies of the safe places they have made their new homes, and all but a handful of those refugees have done anything to "seek extinction" of Jews.

If those refugees could feel safe in their ancestral homelands, many would prefer to return. The only reason they cannot feel safe is because the nation state with all the power has grown more brutal and inhuman. Give peace a meaningful chance here.

I'll add to this. @Brisketexan your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.

There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Nat Turner is not beloved in the South today, but I'm sure that feeling of animosity is dying as the generations pass. 

Right, that's the reference. It's pretty sick in my opinion to hate the members of that rebellion. They and their families were enslaved (obviously excepting the freedmen who participated), they were well within their moral rights to kill entire families of their oppressors. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is hyperbolic. You're fixated on stray statements from the most radical elements of that society

“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I'll add to this. @Brisketexan your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.

There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

You think after this weekend there are still dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding Palestine?  Pretty sure Hamas decapitating babies and Palestine celebrating in the streets homogenized those viewpoints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll add to this. [mention=593]Brisketexan[/mention] your hyperbole has become toxic. You're an online caricature at this point.
There's dozens of differing viewpoints within Israeli society regarding the issue of Palestine. And yet, when discussing Palestinians, you're convinced there is only one homogenous viewpoint.

I’m aware that there are many different viewpoints within each society.
But the dominant viewpoint in Palestinian society (whether in raw numbers of adherents or in terms of the power wielded by those who hold that position) is, and has been, extermination of the Jews and elimination of Israel as a state.
We don’t want it to be that way. I don’t want it to be that way. I desperately want two peoples to find a way to coexist in peace. I’m just enough of a realist to have ditched all such hope.
These two peoples are going to kill each other until one of them is gone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I've been wondering how is the ADL-hating alt-right is responding to all of this. Has to be quite the conundrum.

Ben Shapiro and Andrew Tate are fighting on Twitter. It's mildly entertaining but not really worth linking to as neither of them deserves the attention. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Brisketexan said:


I’m aware that there are many different viewpoints within each society.
But the dominant viewpoint in Palestinian society (whether in raw numbers of adherents or in terms of the power wielded by those who hold that position) is, and has been, extermination of the Jews and elimination of Israel as a state.
We don’t want it to be that way. I don’t want it to be that way. I desperately want two peoples to find a way to coexist in peace. I’m just enough of a realist to have ditched all such hope.
These two peoples are going to kill each other until one of them is gone.

You've basically taken the Al Jazeera version of interview the trailer park native after the tornado and extrapolated it to an entire populace. Because you feeel things.

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Right, that's the reference. It's pretty sick in my opinion to hate the members of that rebellion. They and their families were enslaved (obviously excepting the freedmen who participated), they were well within their moral rights to kill entire families of their oppressors. 

I'll stop at saying it was morally good or acceptable for them to kill children, but in the spirit of the old Chris Rock skit about never hitting women, "I understand."

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).

The one election that Hamas won, they had a smaller share of the vote than Trump did here in 2016 or 2020. And that election was 17 years ago. Literally nearly half of the people of Gaza were not alive then. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, G650 said:

Brisket is a guy with a big heart, and big emotions, which is why we love him. But it tends to run away in emotional circumstances and it's a bummer

"Emotional Runaway Brisket" probably needs to be fleshed-out with some lyrics.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 2
  • Haha 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You've basically taken the Al Jazeera version of interview the trailer park native after the tornado and extrapolated it to an entire populace. Because you feeel things.

If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

What was the level of genocidal antisemitism in the region like prior to the founding of the modern state of Israel?

Edited by David Dennison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Also, aluminum hat conspiracy thought: what if the goal is to draw a bunch of Isreali forces into Gaza then set off a nuke in a tunnel under the city? Ultimate jihad which the rest of the Arabic world could leverage as Israel's military would be decimated. 

This whole act of aggression by Hamas does not seem super well thought through to an endgame that leads to a positive outcome for the Palestinians, but if this is their end game then it's really a truly insane plan. Can I introduce them to the Samson Option? Pretty sure if Hamas sets off a nuke under Gaza the Israeli nukes would fly and they would not give two shits of how many civilians they kill in Tehran, Damascus, Beirut, etc..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Holy shit. It commemorates the conquest of Judea and features the depiction below as a detail from Titus' triumph.

spacer.png

I guess Italy using this monument is like the Germans lighting up a Nazi building with stars of David.

History has been so hard on those people.

 

Username checks out!

  • Like 1
  • Haha 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Agree. That is why everyone is against Hamas, but that doesn't mean we should be against the Palestinian people.  We should be for the Palestinian people just like we should be fore the Israeli people.  We should be against Hamas just like we should be against Bibi, the Likud party, and Israel's current government.  We should step in and root out right wing parties from both sides.

Hamas took power in 2004 and have not allowed elections since then.  

For people asking for solutions:

The US, regional partners, and the international community needs to step in and push aside Hamas - just like they should take a hard ethical stance and push aside Israel's current government.  

For both Palestine and Israel, the UN should impose restrictions on their democratic process - no right wing parties.  

The UN should impose a hard border and provide security for a generation or two.  

The UN should impose restrictions on Israeli land development, pull settlers out of disputed areas, and manage all disputed holy sites. 

The UN should build up the Palestinian economy and education system.

There is no solution if Hamas and the Likud party stay in power.

I agree. UN needs to be involved. 

But I think it's a little disingenuous to equate Hamas and the Likud party. I'm not absolving or excusing the settlements, but has the Likud party done anything remotely comparable to Hamas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


“The most radical elements of society” = “the foundational document of the political movement voted for and put into power by the people of Gaza.”
Quit characterizing genocidal anti-semitism as a “fringe belief.” It’s not. It’s deeply woven into the fabric of the region. We don’t WANT it to be. We want to believe that “if only the Palestinian people had been treated better, we wouldn’t be facing this.” Bullshit. Rampant Genocidal anti-semitism in the region predates Israel’s post-1967 actions. And it will continue, no matter what Israel ever does (aside from just going extinct).

What foundational document? The charter from the 1988 that was replaced in 2017? If we're going to be using a "foundational document" to impute sentiments to the whole of a society governed by those documents, that seems to walk us into uncomfortable discussions including a discussion about whether some people are only 3/5ths as valuable as others.

If these people were as genocidal as you claim, why are so few of the displaced refugees around the world engaged in anything more than making an honest living? Can you answer that?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

I literally discuss the difficulties in basically every post I made but sure thing guy.

Very convenient answer. You addressed the word "difficulties" but completely ignored for at least the 3rd time requests to share what "actions" you think appropriate as an alternative to the views you criticize. It's becoming obvious that your schtick is to criticize but offer no alternative. Cool. Good to know.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'll stop at saying it was morally good or acceptable for them to kill children, but in the spirit of the old Chris Rock skit about never hitting women, "I understand."

I'll blow right through that stop sign. Just as the death of a civilian human shield is on the combatant who used them as a shield, the deaths of the enslavers' children are on the enslavers. I'd prefer if they didn't, but I don't find it morally wrong in any way that they did. Hell, an objective analysis would find that those children would have been almost certain to use the legal system at the time to subjugate the slaves' children so even with the benefit of a cool head it's hard to say it's wrong.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Very convenient answer. You addressed the word "difficulties" but completely ignored for at least the 3rd time requests to share what "actions" you think appropriate as an alternative to the views you criticize. It's becoming obvious that your schtick is to criticize but offer no alternative. Cool. Good to know.

My schtick? I’ve been posting on some version of this site for like 20 years so it seems like someone would have picked up on that by now.

I’m not a fucking military strategist. Here is literally my only opinion of what should or should not happen: Don’t kill civilians and don’t advocate for it. That’s it. That’s the whole thing. Is that easy? Prolly not, but that’s the job. Which part do you disagree with?

Edited by hobbes2702
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


We absolutely should not ignore those circumstances. Like I said, the ultimate outcome here will be that one group ceases to exist, and the other is an abhorrent pariah state that committed genocide. Doesn’t matter which is which, flip them back and forth as many times as you want.
Neither side ends up any better than “we won and survived, but we are a criminal state and people who should be loathed by humanity for generations.” That’s the best-case scenario.

Hamas will be put down, it's inevitable. What then? To me any solution must include the international community condemning Israel for abusing its power in the region and requiring humane treatment of Palestinians as a whole (treating terrorists separately). That part won't happen and why the conflict will never end. You say "we absolutely should not ignore those circumstances" but the west is doing exactly that, supporting Israel without question and never recognizing the plight of the Palestinians. Again, all part of Israel's decades long strategy to suppress any criticism of its governance by fomenting resentment, expecting terrorism, then saying they have to continue their conduct for their own protection. I'll never agree with that state of affairs. 

  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I'll blow right through that stop sign. Just as the death of a civilian human shield is on the combatant who used them as a shield, the deaths of the enslavers' children are on the enslavers. I'd prefer if they didn't, but I don't find it morally wrong in any way that they did. Hell, an objective analysis would find that those children would have been almost certain to use the legal system at the time to subjugate the slaves' children so even with the benefit of a cool head it's hard to say it's wrong.

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

But I think it's a little disingenuous to equate Hamas and the Likud party. I'm not absolving or excusing the settlements, but has the Likud party done anything remotely comparable to Hamas?

Propping up Hamas bc the tension is good for business and political power for Likud is pretty bad. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Red Five said:

Think this was pretty much the plot of The Dark Knight Rises.

I'm actually watching this movie right now and couldn't help draw parallels between the terrorism of Ra's al Ghul and League of Shadows and real life terrorist groups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Hamas will be put down, it's inevitable. What then? To me any solution must include the international community condemning Israel for abusing its power in the region and requiring humane treatment of Palestinians as a whole (treating terrorists separately). That part won't happen and why the conflict will never end. You say "we absolutely should not ignore those circumstances" but the west is doing exactly that, supporting Israel without question and never recognizing the plight of the Palestinians. Again, all part of Israel's decades long strategy to suppress any criticism of its governance by fomenting resentment, expecting terrorism, then saying they have to continue their conduct for their own protection. I'll never agree with that state of affairs. 

Extremely good post. International pressure is the only way to strong-arm Isreal in concert with getting Hamas out of the way and giving the Palestinian population a voice.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The one election that Hamas won, they had a smaller share of the vote than Trump did here in 2016 or 2020. And that election was 17 years ago. Literally nearly half of the people of Gaza were not alive then. 

Forget it, he's rolling

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


If you think that genocidal antisemitism was just coincidentally raised in a couple of interviews in the area…come the fuck on. Since the founding of the modern state in 1948, Israel has faced multiple wars seeking to wipe it off the map. Genocidal antisemitism is not a novel or rare belief in the region. You think it’s a fringe belief. It’s not. It’s mainstream. Again, I know we don’t WANT to believe that, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Evil Bill Obrien said:

This whole act of aggression by Hamas does not seem super well thought through to an endgame that leads to a positive outcome for the Palestinians, but if this is their end game then it's really a truly insane plan. 

They don't give a shit about the Palestinians.  The endgame for the sub-human jihadis that did the actual butchering is a short remaining lifespan convinced they will shortly get all their virgins or whatever fairy tale they believe.  The end game for those that actually financed this and set it in motion is, at a minimum, ensuring Israel stops normalizing relations with any other middle eastern countries.  They knew exactly what would happen when you set a bunch of barbarians loose and what Israels natural response would be.  Whether a potential larger conflict that could benefit other Western hating nations (i.e., russia) was a stated goal or just an ancillary benefit isn't clear.  But this had nothing to do whatsoever with furthering the Palestinian cause.  So can't really fathom why any Palestinian in Gaza or elsewhere is celebrating this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I see the logic here. I don't agree with it, because I'm a firm believer that people can be reformed and even the worst criminals are entitled to an opportunity to pursue the path of reformation. Contrary to what assclowns like Elon Musk believe, demographics are not destiny. A boy who was radicalized in his teens can be deradicalized in his 20s and 30s. If I believe the people of Palestine can learn to tolerate Jews then I must also believe that an Israeli child who today would be raised to believe Arabs are subhuman can also grow up to be tolerant and even loving towards Arabs. Those who would bomb a Palestinian apartment complex full of children or who would murder an Israeli child are robbing those children of their opportunities to make their own choices, including choices that set them down the path of peace and love.

Yes, that's the part where I'd prefer that the children not be killed. I simply won't judge an oppressed (enslaved in this example) person for exacting their vengeance against the oppressors' family. 

Certainly that usually serves to extend the horrific cycle but I consider myself a pretty rational person and if my family were slaves and I had a chance to eliminate our captors I can't say for sure I'd stop with the men. Given the absurdly lucky circumstances I was born into I can't begin to put myself in their shoes, so I won't judge them. 

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...