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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say


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3 hours ago, hookem17 said:

Wow. 

I dragged a rather jaded former prosecutor into my office and made her watch that.  She was a mess of tears.  And she and I have had some heated (yet rational) discussions about this case.  That was something I've not seen before.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I don’t know what to think of her. Clearly she murdered the guy and a jury made their assessment and I’m good with it. I don’t know if she’s racist or an immature dipshit, and don’t care. Her contrition and wailing when he hugged her was genuine and sad. 

Yeah, this troubles me.  I think we all agree that her actions were unreasonable.  But unreasonable does not directly equate to the worst kind of murder.  The people combining "unreasonable" with "intentional" and "murder" to arrive at that place are being facile.  There's some kind of gray area in there that's beyond my ability to describe or rudimentary psychological understanding.

Whatever her mental state at the time, or psychological makeup, I saw evidence of real remorse and that probably spells an ability to make herself a better person, to "rehabilitate" and not repeat the same mistakes.

Defining culpability and an appropriate sentence is hard work and requires some serious thought free from being self-righteous or all lathered up about black/white cop/civilian man/woman and the various things that put people in high dudgeon about this case.  However they arrived at their sentence, I think the jury did a very fair job.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I did, and it's plenty fair.  I made the call at the time based on history and known evidence....damned glad to be wrong.  Not the first time for me, won't be the last (I mean, I'm SURE all of y'all just KNEW Texas was gonna beat the Huskers in the first Big 12 championship, right?)

 

Very much agreed.  Our social trend is so much towards separation, and villification.  Seeing an outward example of kindness, forgiveness, and acknowledgment that we all live in community with each other -- including with the people who have wronged us -- is really big.

It reminds me of the aftermath of the Amish school shooting back in 2006.  https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14900930

The Amish family members of actual shooting victims not only forgave the shooter, but some of them even attended his funeral.  They offered love and assistance to his widow and his family.  They walked the fucking walk.  It was one of the most powerful displays of Christ-like behavior I've ever seen, and it sticks with me to this day.

A lot of us are angry at law enforcement.  And we have every right to be.  But what do we really WANT?  We want them to do their jobs.  We want them to do it with kindness and human decency, with awareness and respect for the gravity of their power, and the decisions they may be called upon to make.  We actually DO want them to "make it home safely."  And we want them to deliberately balance the life and safety of others when they make life-changing decisions.  We want them to be like Deputy Dahliwal...and we want him and the rest of them to go home to their family at the end of their shift.  I don't hate cops.  I hate what they've allowed themselves to become, and I hate that so many of them resist reform.  

Do we want Amber Guyger to suffer now?  Maybe.   Maybe somewhat.  Because it does send a powerful cautionary message.  But what would we RATHER have had happen? 

I think most of us would prefer to have seen her grow up to be a decent woman with compassion, not fear masked with callous bravado.  We'd rather have seen her be capable of doing her job in a cool and professional manner.  That way, even if she did goof in showing up at the wrong apartment, upon hearing movement inside, she would have backed up, and assessed the situation....looked at the doormat....looked at the apartment number....and realized it wasn't her own apartment.  Maybe she even would have been a good neighbor, knocking on the door to tell her downstairs neighbor that "man, I am really tired, and found myself in front of the wrong door, but I saw that it was ajar, so I wanted to tell you so you could close it and be safe.  Have a nice evening."

I'm sick of people being so fragile and hostile that they resort to violence and hurting others.  I'm sick of people being hurt and killed because violence is such a common reaction among people we should be able to trust.  I'm sick of society HAVING to call for justice, and strong sentences to serve as a warning.  I'm sick of losing good people like Botham Jean.  I'm sick of people like Amber Guyger never developing into a good person, for whatever reasons may have led her down the wrong path.  I'd like a society where Botham got to enjoy his ice cream and go to bed, and a good cop named Amber got to have a laugh about how tired she was, and get a good night's sleep.

We can and should exact our punishment.  But we must also figure out a way to heal who we are.  Because who we are right now hurts a shitload of people, for no damned good reason at all.

Kind of makes you wanna walk back from the ledge doesn’t it?

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I'm sorry, I don't want to see another 18 year old on the stand burdened with the responsibility to forgive. I don't fault Jean's little brother, that's his personal journey to forgiveness but the judge hugging her does not sit well with me. 

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1 minute ago, Slade said:

I'm sorry, I don't want to see another 18 year old on the stand burdened with the responsibility to forgive. I don't fault Jean's little brother, that's his personal journey to forgiveness but the judge hugging her does not sit well with me. 

I may be mistaken but it looked like the judge was speaking to the victims family right before she went over to Amber.  It looked like she was relaying a message from the parents.  

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3 minutes ago, Slade said:

I'm sorry, I don't want to see another 18 year old on the stand burdened with the responsibility to forgive. I don't fault Jean's little brother, that's his personal journey to forgiveness but the judge hugging her does not sit well with me. 

To the extent that it could symbolize one part of the "system" embracing another, I can see your point.

A bailiff was also filmed comforting Guyger after the conviction.

The more humanity exhibited by "cogs in the machine," the better, but to the extent it reflects actual or merely perceived "favoritism," it's a problem.

 

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Hopefully, if she has truly been moved, Amber will spend her time using her experience as a teaching moment for those that wear the badge. She has a lesson to give. Maybe the sympathy and forgiveness she was shown today will allow her to pay it forward 

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57 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

That one demonstration of forgiveness will go further to change any ingrained thoughts of hate more than 100 years in prison would.

Black people have been praying and forgiving our way to subjugation.  Hate to say that as a Christian, but while we forgive, the applicable reality has not followed not had it been reciprocated.  Can't even get people to acknowledge racism.

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Black people have been praying and forgiving our way to subjugation.  Hate to say that as a Christian, but while we forgive, the applicable reality has not followed not had it been reciprocated.  Can't even get people to acknowledge racism.

And damn if that ain’t a fair thing to say.

Way to remind me that we’re too far gone, and we steadfastly refuse to fix shit.
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7 minutes ago, rantanamo said:

Black people have been praying and forgiving our way to subjugation.  Hate to say that as a Christian, but while we forgive, the applicable reality has not followed not had it been reciprocated.  Can't even get people to acknowledge racism.

Thank you, we've been showing grace and forgiveness for centuries. Forgiveness is always incumbent upon us in these kinds of instances, I'm not a subscriber to this programming.  Kalief Browder wasn't shown this kind of compassion from the system, he rotted in Rikers for years with no trial and committed suicide after he was released. The Central Park 5 (Exonerated 5) were kids, did they get hugs from the judge in their cases? No. 

Forgiveness does not negate accountability. Jean's life mattered but that is not reflected in this sentence, which is nothing new as it relates to the lives of black Americans in this judicial system. 

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I don't think this was either but fact is still white cop murdered black man in his home. No reason for it and only 10 years while many of my friends from and in the hood have family members locked up for close to that and longer than that for way less shot than muder. You can say different things and that is another issue but people are fucking pissed off

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I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people. That you will get a fucking hug out of it. That shit pisses me off. How can anyone be moved by that? The mom was rejoicing after being found guilty and the brother goes up and gives her a hug? That doesn't take character or bravery. That is stupidity. Spare me the religious angle of why. This murdering piece of shit entered your brother's home and shot him dead, didn't even give a shit to even try and revive him or check. And you want to hug her and say she deserves no time? All in the name of religion. Wow. So he is giving anyone out there an invitation to walk into his home or family/friends and shoot them dead and he will give us a hug. Good job guy. Way to show the world your brother's life means zero to you. That woman does not give a shit about you, your family or your deceased brother. She is only upset about the consequences of her actions, not the action itself, as most criminals are. Good job bowing down to the fucking cops. You think her family would hug your brother or you if you went into her home and shot her? Nope. Your victory would be avoiding the needle. But hey, you just told the world your brother's life means nada. And quit putting words in his mouth saying this is what he wanted. He would want to be living right now, not deceased.

This whole ordeal pisses me off. The guilty verdict was just a bone being thrown. That means zero now with this 10yr sentence and she will be out before this year's recruiting class graduates. I don't think the jury ever planned on being harsh. They wanted to play both sides of the fence. Convict but go light on her punishment. Dog and pony show is all it was. Had the roles been reversed and he killed her in her home, the jury would send his ass away for his natural life remaining. 

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3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people. That you will get a fucking hug out of it. That shit pisses me off. How can anyone be moved by that? The mom was rejoicing after being found guilty and the brother goes up and gives her a hug? That doesn't take character or bravery. That is stupidity. Spare me the religious angle of why. This murdering piece of shit entered your brother's home and shot him dead, didn't even give a shit to even try and revive him or check. And you want to hug her and say she deserves no time? All in the name of religion. Wow. So he is giving anyone out there an invitation to walk into his home or family/friends and shoot them dead and he will give us a hug. Good job guy. Way to show the world your brother's life means zero to you. That woman does not give a shit about you, your family or your deceased brother. She is only upset about the consequences of her actions, not the action itself, as most criminals are. Good job bowing down to the fucking cops. You think her family would hug your brother or you if you went into her home and shot her? Nope. Your victory would be avoiding the needle. But hey, you just told the world your brother's life means nada. And quit putting words in his mouth saying this is what he wanted. He would want to be living right now, not deceased.

This whole ordeal pisses me off. The guilty verdict was just a bone being thrown. That means zero now with this 10yr sentence and she will be out before this year's recruiting class graduates. I don't think the jury ever planned on being harsh. They wanted to play both sides of the fence. Convict but go light on her punishment. Dog and pony show is all it was. Had the roles been reversed and he killed her in her home, the jury would send his ass away for his natural life remaining. 

Man, I really can't disagree with you. 

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12 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people. That you will get a fucking hug out of it. That shit pisses me off. How can anyone be moved by that? The mom was rejoicing after being found guilty and the brother goes up and gives her a hug? That doesn't take character or bravery. That is stupidity. Spare me the religious angle of why. This murdering piece of shit entered your brother's home and shot him dead, didn't even give a shit to even try and revive him or check. And you want to hug her and say she deserves no time? All in the name of religion. Wow. So he is giving anyone out there an invitation to walk into his home or family/friends and shoot them dead and he will give us a hug. Good job guy. Way to show the world your brother's life means zero to you. That woman does not give a shit about you, your family or your deceased brother. She is only upset about the consequences of her actions, not the action itself, as most criminals are. Good job bowing down to the fucking cops. You think her family would hug your brother or you if you went into her home and shot her? Nope. Your victory would be avoiding the needle. But hey, you just told the world your brother's life means nada. And quit putting words in his mouth saying this is what he wanted. He would want to be living right now, not deceased.

This whole ordeal pisses me off. The guilty verdict was just a bone being thrown. That means zero now with this 10yr sentence and she will be out before this year's recruiting class graduates. I don't think the jury ever planned on being harsh. They wanted to play both sides of the fence. Convict but go light on her punishment. Dog and pony show is all it was. Had the roles been reversed and he killed her in her home, the jury would send his ass away for his natural life remaining. 

The foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 

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I know letter of the law is that it is murder, but I think the charge really should’ve been “manslaughter because of really shitty judgement and systemically bad police training to shoot first and ask questions later.” I think ten years was definitely appropriate. There was not criminal intent. She used really bad judgement combined with some really bad luck of parking on the wrong floor. She is not a threat in any way to society. I hope she goes on to teach police departments about the pitfalls of over zealous training and the importance of good judgement in policing.

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13 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Pathetic. This murdering bitch has all their sympathy. Good job. d3c29db16188cda11d89864febe4b593.jpg

When was the last time a convicted murderer got a hug from the judge?

Aside from the victim's brother, the other two pics kind of seem to be the system forgiving of her crime. 

Edited by Deej
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2 hours ago, rantanamo said:

Black people have been praying and forgiving our way to subjugation.  Hate to say that as a Christian, but while we forgive, the applicable reality has not followed not had it been reciprocated.  Can't even get people to acknowledge racism.

you can't say it enough.

you have posters who have vilified Black people and the "Black community" for years on these forums going on about how his display was more effective than X number of year of jail time would ever be.

sure it looks like a Hollywood movie, because it's the type of scene that has been shoved down throats for years now in movies..

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12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, this sudden passion thing has a lot of roots in common law homicide.  

Typically, it would nullify the premeditation requirement for "1st degree" type murder.  Since Texas law doesn't take into account premeditation, this is how that's dealt with.

It comes from common law manslaugher.

13 hours ago, smuggs said:

Sudden Passion absolutely has to be on Sex Cop's debut album.

Along with the chart topping single: Mi Casa es Su Casa!

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13 hours ago, ajax said:

So what. Who fucking cares. I was molested as a kid too. I didn't murder anyone. Fuck her.

Yet

8 hours ago, Tailgate said:

Question for lawyers. If they appeal this case and the process opens back up could she gamble and end up getting a higher sentence?

Yes

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Texas restores firearm rights five years after completion of sentence.

At residence.

federal law prohibits it and has serious penalties

 

 

7 hours ago, RPM said:

So when they included time served to reduce her sentence, does that include time out on bond?

No. She has credit for the day or her arrest and the last two days. 10 years, credit 3 days.

4 hours ago, dcbc said:

I dragged a rather jaded former prosecutor into my office and made her watch that.  She was a mess of tears.  And she and I have had some heated (yet rational) discussions about this case.  That was something I've not seen before.

Good. I hate jaded prosecutors.

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I Had a bunch of hearings today so I missed the trial today and am just taking a moment to learn the sentence and what happened at trial today here on surly

I see some heavy shit in court on a daily basis

I'm shocked. I’ve never seen anything like it.

Bramdt Jean is an amazing person.

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8 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

Man, y’all are some angry motherfuckers on this site.

yeah, we need to work on being more receptive to people being shot in their own homes, while completely minding their own fucking business..

Edited by Iceman
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8 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people.

I don't think that's the message at all.

You need a hug from Mr. Brandt Jean.

And more importantly, you need to hug him back.

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7 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Yep and rightfully so, 10 years is bullshit compared to what I’ve seen many people get for less charges

Are you saying that because other people have been treated unjustly that we should keep doing that?  If that’s what you’re saying then I sort of have to disagree with you there.

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10 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I'll be fucking damned if I ever go up to someone who murdered a family member or friend of mine and give them a hug. They can fucking rot in prison and get shanked for all I give a fuck. That was fucking pathetic. You are basically telling the world it is ok for people to intrude into people's homes and kill people. That you will get a fucking hug out of it. That shit pisses me off. How can anyone be moved by that? The mom was rejoicing after being found guilty and the brother goes up and gives her a hug? That doesn't take character or bravery. That is stupidity. Spare me the religious angle of why. This murdering piece of shit entered your brother's home and shot him dead, didn't even give a shit to even try and revive him or check. And you want to hug her and say she deserves no time? All in the name of religion. Wow. So he is giving anyone out there an invitation to walk into his home or family/friends and shoot them dead and he will give us a hug. Good job guy. Way to show the world your brother's life means zero to you. That woman does not give a shit about you, your family or your deceased brother. She is only upset about the consequences of her actions, not the action itself, as most criminals are. Good job bowing down to the fucking cops. You think her family would hug your brother or you if you went into her home and shot her? Nope. Your victory would be avoiding the needle. But hey, you just told the world your brother's life means nada. And quit putting words in his mouth saying this is what he wanted. He would want to be living right now, not deceased.

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It wouldn't have mattered if they sentenced her to 10 days, 10 years, or 100 years.

She's a cop going to prison.  She is going to die there, or be beat so terribly she wishes she would die. It's a death sentence no matter the length. Even if they have her in "protective" whatever, she's going to get killed in prison. They always find a way.

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