Israel

[Anastasis 23191]

I think that you dismiss #4 too easily. If we are going to assign broadly to the palestinians the words of their extremists, maybe we should do the same with the other side. Stick a mic in front of a WB settler and you will hear some outright calls for genocide.  Shit, put a mic in front of their PM or their defense minister and you will get essentially the same. 

[hobbes2702 12481]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I think that you dismiss #4 too easily. If we are going to assign broadly to the palestinians the words of their extremists, maybe we should do the same with the other side. Stick a mic in front of a WB settler and you will hear some outright calls for genocide.  Shit, put a mic in front of their PM or their defense minister and you will get essentially the same. 

Stick a mic in multiple threads on this website and you’ll hear it. Don’t need to travel

[RollingPresidential 632]

14 hours ago, LCHorn said:

IT ten years ago was full of olds who thought Red McCombs was wrong when he said Charlie Strong would make a good coordinator because you should get a white man for those positions, too.  
 

Now those have been joined by refugees from OB and 247 and who no longer have the crutch of age to help justify their ignorance.  
 

Nahlin himself is a worshipper at the altar of Reagan, which I have always considered odd given how the recruiting guys must have to prostrate themselves to a bunch of black teenagers in order to generate content.

The more surprising one, to me, was Scipio. I figured he was a more measured Texas libertarian type, but he's downright bloodthirsty in that thread. 

[smuggs 9304]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You believe that evil can be redeemed.
I do not.
One of us is right, one of us is wrong.
... Because humans are shit.

Ok I can work with this.

['stache 21489]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You believe that evil can be redeemed.
I do not.
One of us is right, one of us is wrong.
I’ve seen enough history to believe that evil doesn’t go away. Shit, in our own country, we’ve never even genuinely sought contrition or peace after the sim of slavery. We won’t, we can’t, because humans are shit.

Germany? Japan? Italy? I agree humans are shit but there are levels of shittiness. Circumstances are very different and I don’t have the bandwidth to go through them all, but this post is solely in response to your very broad statement that evil societies can’t change. Seems like it was only a decade or two that German society went from eradicating Jews and trying to take over the world to having their culture celebrated worldwide during Oktoberfest. Like one of Norm McDonalds best bits, “you’d think they wouldn’t be allowed to be a country anymore,” but I guess they got their genocidal tendencies out and are now a world economic power.

Edited October 11, 2023 by 'stache

[Ted Lange 15819]

31 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Propping up Hamas bc the tension is good for business and political power for Likud is pretty bad. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

I've seen this posted a bunch.  Im not going to pretend to know the full context of it.   The only person I have ever seen providing some is from this guy.  

 

 

 

And a longer post he had on this topic.   Again, I'm not saying I know the answers but thought this potentially provides some context.

[C-Man 26535]

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

And this isn't a "let's gang up on Briskettexan because he's lashing out emotionally", but it's more of what Sydney said. Brisket is right in some aspects, as is hobbes and chainsaw and roma and everyone else. 

Personally, I'd like to see some semblance of mercy being given.

That to me looks like, taking the longer, harder, more costly and less satisfying road of retaliation rather than just dust the Gaza strip with everyone in it 30 mins on the dot after an amber alert is sent to whatever cell phones are working in the already war-torn area.

I'd like to see restraint even if the Hamas terrorists are using their own as shields, as cowardly and evil as they are.

I'd like to see a controlled, righteously angry response rather than reflexive and hasty overwrought violence, whether it be from a place of hurt and pain and defiance or, worse yet, political manipulation.

But I fully acknowledge I say this in a place of privilege of not being Israeli, Jewish, or Jewish-adjacent. It's easy for me to preach, so I don't begrudge those who are hurting and in pain their response, even if I ultimately disagree.

Yeah, I have no idea how this particular thing could work but I think I prefer an option where IDF rolls into Gaza and "occupies" the territory while sending out Zero Dark Thirty/SEAL Team 6-like raids to eliminate Hamas teams. Hell, cut their heads off if it makes you feel better.

[Helobious 9393]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Anecdotes are not competent evidence. Any individual man can change. But the odds are - and history backs it up - that the vast majority will not.
That’s what I mean by being realistic. A plan that relies on “and the majority of the Palestinians will end up changing their minds and decide that maybe Jews don’t need to be exterminated” is not a good or realistic plan.

What about what happened in Germany and Japan? Two nations each heading a couple of the most bloodthirsty campaigns in history. You’d have no idea looking at their societies even 20 years later. 

[TwiceHorn 30715]

A question.

Do people think that Israel oppresses Gazan Palestinians just for fun?  Shits n giggles?  Hebrew superiority?

 

[BrickHorn 17983]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The Palestinians will hate the jews until the heat death of the universe, and will seek their extinction. 

 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m aware that there are many different viewpoints within each society.
But the dominant viewpoint in Palestinian society (whether in raw numbers of adherents or in terms of the power wielded by those who hold that position) is, and has been, extermination of the Jews and elimination of Israel as a state.
We don’t want it to be that way. I don’t want it to be that way. I desperately want two peoples to find a way to coexist in peace. I’m just enough of a realist to have ditched all such hope.
These two peoples are going to kill each other until one of them is gone.

Calm down, Beavis Brisket.

[TwiceHorn 30715]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

 

Calm down, Beavis Brisket.

The preferred nomenclature is settle down.  Or thettle down.

[LCHorn 2527]

10 minutes ago, RollingPresidential said:

The more surprising one, to me, was Scipio. I figured he was a more measured Texas libertarian type, but he's downright bloodthirsty in that thread. 

Dammit, you made me look.  You’re right, he’s being an asshole.  That said, the “I’m a subscriber, you should be nicer to me”, I bet gets frustrating.  
 

Lots of violent fantasies getting written up over there, maybe they find it soothing.  
 

 

[G650 13063]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

One of us is right, one of us is wrong

D) All of the above

['stache 21489]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

A question.

Do people think that Israel oppresses Gazan Palestinians just for fun?  Shits n giggles?  Hebrew superiority?

 

Land and power. Tale as old as time.

[956 Worldwide 33957]

19 hours ago, Anastasis said:

[wildcat]huh, look at who is cheering on genocide[/wildcat] 

And look who is cheering on disinformation operations. 

Oz is a Lebanese journalist whose feed is full of criticism of Israel and who manages to engage honestly.  Anyone who races to call things they don’t like “disinformation” or call into question the objectivity of Jews who report on Israel needs to take a deep breath and think about what they say.

 

 

[Ted Lange 15819]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Oz is a Lebanese journalist whose feed is full of criticism of Israel and who manages to engage honestly.  Anyone who races to call things they don’t like “disinformation” or call into question the objectivity of Jews who report on Israel needs to take a deep breath and think about what they say.

 

 

 

Im sure there are some, but at least here (I could've missed it) I don't think people were denying it, but were simply asking for it to be fact-checked/vetted before they started taking it as gospel.  Any time there is a major event it is littered with reports that turn out to be complete BS, over and over and over.   

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Has surly come up with the bare minimum requirements for reclaiming a homeland? Just curious because I have been eyeing this nice little town in the foothills of the Pyrenees with my surname.

[Asithappens 974]

Extremists (and they usually seem to be religiously motivated - not just Muslim) don't care about how many lives they take in pursuit of their holy war. We've seen this time and time again. 

Imo Israel, being in the middle of a war/terrorist attack from Hamas, is under no obligation at this time (maybe later) to show "mercy". Israel is at war. They are fighting an enemy that calls for the destruction of Israel. They don't have the luxury of mercy.

[Goofyboy 2955]

Is the PLO still around? There was an Ambassador from Palestine on the BBC that basically said he does not represent Hamas and the 30 years of work the PLO has done.

[chainsaw 9440]

53 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You believe that evil can be redeemed.
I do not.
One of us is right, one of us is wrong.
I’ve seen enough history to believe that evil doesn’t go away. Shit, in our own country, we’ve never even genuinely sought contrition or peace after the sin of slavery. We won’t, we can’t, because humans are shit.
 

You believe the average Palestinian is evil? What is the basis for that

[wildcat09 28387]

2 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Im sure there are some, but at least here (I could've missed it) I don't think people were denying it, but were simply asking for it to be fact-checked/vetted before they started taking it as gospel.  Any time there is a major event it is littered with reports that turn out to be complete BS, over and over and over.   

Especially with the degradation of Twitter, I think it's more important than ever to be very careful about not spreading unverified information. There's a whole lot of shitheads involved knowingly spreading disinformation to drum up anger and hatred, and now Elon fucking pays them to do so.  Then we've got many many more people who unwittingly spread that disinformation, earnestly believing it's real, but who are ultimately serving the aims of those who spread the disinformation in the first place. We've been talking about the beheaded babies story, but there's also plenty of similar clips and videos going around of dead Palestinian babies, plenty of which are real and plenty of which are not (or are from prior events).  

It's not helpful to any moral cause to spread disinformation. That only serves the ends of the worst people who want to stoke these fires as hot as they can. That doesn't mean there's not going to be tons of horrific stories that are true.

[Smax 3799]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

I'm legitimately curious if you think Israel should bear any blame for this aspect of the conflict. You seem very much focused on "they want to eradicate the Jews." Even if that is true for many (which I think is way overbroad), don't you think there is some logic to that belief for people who have lived under the oppressive thumb of Israel for decades? It's like abusing a dog for years then letting it lose and when it bites someone you have no choice but to put it down. The decision to put it down was probably the right call, but why should we ignore the circumstances that led to that outcome?

 

 

This same analogy be applied to the jews, its never ending just as to which clan can lay claim to that spat of dirt.

[strangulation! 1694]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You believe the average Palestinian is evil? What is the basis for that

The average Palestinian is a person, and therefore evil. qed, ipso facto, etc 

[gsoda3 3187]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Holy shit. It commemorates the conquest of Judea and features the depiction below as a detail from Titus' triumph.

I guess Italy using this monument is like the Germans lighting up a Nazi building with stars of David.

History has been so hard on those people.

 

name checks out.

[Huckleberry 32140]

31 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Anyone who races to call things they don’t like “disinformation” or call into question the objectivity of Jews who report on Israel needs to take a deep breath and think about what they say.

You go too far with this line of thinking. In wartime I question the objectivity of any media outlet reporting on their home nation. That's not bigoted, it's logical. It's not anti-Christian to question an American reporter reporting on America in war and it's not anti-Semitic to question an Israeli reporter reporting on Israel. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Huckleberry

[RollingPresidential 632]

31 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Dammit, you made me look.  You’re right, he’s being an asshole.  That said, the “I’m a subscriber, you should be nicer to me”, I bet gets frustrating.  
 

Lots of violent fantasies getting written up over there, maybe they find it soothing.  
 

 

I guess. Nahlin used to follow me on Twitter until the 2016 election or so, so I've been familiar with his feelings on things for awhile. I also know that Ian Boyd was a big Trump guy during the 2015/2016 primaries so I'm not unfamiliar with the cast of characters over there (once got into a twitter spat with him over whether the Crusades were a net good).

I don't begrudge people their political beliefs, as much as I might disagree with them. It's how you act them out that matters. Everyone frothing at the mouth for the blood of the Turk over there is just appalling, and Scipio plopping in with a "WATCH" and a quote of Ben Shapiro ("Arabs swim in sewage") was disappointing. Lot of Dad-history buffs there living out their civilizational conflicts in an age of comfort. 

[sidis 9608]

56 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Germany? Japan? Italy? I agree humans are shit but there are levels of shittiness. Circumstances are very different and I don’t have the bandwidth to go through them all, but this post is solely in response to your very broad statement that evil societies can’t change. Seems like it was only a decade or two that German society went from eradicating Jews and trying to take over the world to having their culture celebrated worldwide during Oktoberfest. Like one of Norm McDonalds best bits, “you’d think they wouldn’t be allowed to be a country anymore,” but I guess they got their genocidal tendencies out and are now a world economic power.

 

52 minutes ago, Helobious said:

What about what happened in Germany and Japan? Two nations each heading a couple of the most bloodthirsty campaigns in history. You’d have no idea looking at their societies even 20 years later. 

hate getting dragged into this because there is no right and wrong on all of this unfortunately...just posturing (lots of it sanctimonious) from every angle from largely unaffected observers leveraging this for entertainment and to pass the time.

however, to this specific point...germany and japan were brought to heel by annihilation with literally (not figuratively) the most destructive force the world has ever seen and the complete and utter slaughter of civilians to devastating effect and subsequently, were effectively neutered for half a century by the rest of the world imposing violent threat.  at least 25,000 people were killed in dresden alone.  across all the bombing campaigns, at least 350,000 german civilians.  200,000-300,000 people were killed in hiroshima and nagasaki alone.  what the world was willing to do to "rehabilitate" germany and japan far exceeded the atrocities of anything ever since.  and there is a very strong and persuasive argument that they were justified...as well as strong and persuasive arguments that they were not.  but at the end of the day, their societal "evil" was snuffed out by learning in the grossest possible way that they could not impose violence as effectively as their adversaries...and it was their fault.  but if you are going to point to germany and japan as wonderful test cases of rehabilitation, you cannot ignore the violence perpetrated on them to bring them there...which is what israel would absolutely love to do right now.

just keep that in mind while waxing poetic about the nature of humanity...particularly when you have never been faced with legitimate threats to survival.

@SydneyCarton's post above generally captures to reality here imo.  brisket and others are acting emotionally.  no doubt about it.  but they do pose a realpolitik inquiry that is just being conveniently ignored by those who have the luxury of projecting self-righteousness on this message board and saying "well i don't need to answer your question because i can't."  no rational person wants civilians to die, that's a given.  note: when i say rational person, that does not include the many pieces of shit we have on this board that get off to the idea of palestinian genocide.  

but if one accepts that hamas is strategically utilizing civilians as shields and that hamas has acted belligerently in a barbaric way...and then impose the notion of "you are not allowed to have any civilian collateral damage under any circumstances," then one is truly at an impasse.  and so what is israel to do if one believes they have a right to respond...when the only response inevitably includes collateral damage due to the tactics of the adversary?  dispassionately stating categorically and unequivocally that israel should not kill palestinian civilians does not make you righteous, particularly from the comforts of the other side of the globe.  it is a basic position of any decent person and it is what any reasonable person believes.  but if one adopts that categorical imperative in a context in which hamas has demonstrated a willingness to strike at your civilians violently and then retreat behind the walls of hospitals to avoid reprisal, then one is faced with the question...what can israel reasonably do?  don't hide behind not being a "military strategist."  you have to confront that reality: either israel can do nothing in service of avoiding civilian casualties at all costs given hamas's strategy and must just absorb the violence as a reprisal for their past sins (which are many)...or you have to allow for some gross consequences that will undoubtedly be abused by an emotional aggressor that has just been severely hurt.

and of course, EVERYTHING i just said can be reasonably flipped on the other side in this particular scenario.  to huckleberry and wildcat's point...if you are a member of an oppressed and abused underclass of society and you unjustly exist in a prison-esque state of apartheid for generations, one is faced with the realpolitik inquiry of do you demonstrate a willingness to impose violence en masse to your oppressors to impose change and are your barbaric acts justified by that?  strong and persuasive argument for.  strong and persuasive argument that you should also not indiscriminately murder children.

it's tragically why this is so nasty and has been for a very long time.  it is one of the worst manifestations of humanity we have conjured in our time.  and unfortunately, it will continue to be until i become king and euthanize everyone on the planet besides me and all the italian women that look like monica bellucci, the spanish women that look like penelope cruz, the south american women that look like ana de armas.

 

tldr: i love hot mediterranean and south american women and everyone else should leave them and me alone.

Edited October 11, 2023 by sidis

[chainsaw 9440]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You go too far with this line of thinking. In wartime I question the objectivity of any media outlet reporting on their home nation. That's not bigoted, it's logical. It's not anti-Christian to question an American reporter reporting on America in war and it's not anti-semitic to question an Israeli reporter reporting on Israel. 

Here's an example that doesn't relate to Israel (at least not directly) of why skepticism of wartime and war-adjacent stories is important. Jump ahead to 3:30

"We couldn't sell the war without" the false narrative of babies being killed.

This journalist discovered some very key omissions and conflicts of interest regarding the testimony given to Congress. If false narratives would be (and historically have been) used to justify invasions, they would be and could be used to justify war crimes.

[po elvis 2070]

18 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Has surly come up with the bare minimum requirements for reclaiming a homeland? Just curious because I have been eyeing this nice little town in the foothills of the Pyrenees with my surname.

the requirements are the same as ever. you have to win a war. 

[G650 13063]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

but they does pose a realpolitik inquiry that is just being conveniently ignored by those who have the luxury of projecting self-righteousness on this message board and saying "well i don't need to answer your question because i can't."  no rational person wants civilians to die, that's a given.  note: when i say rational person, that does not include the many pieces of shit we have on this board that get off to the idea of palestinian genocide.  

The issue is they don't pose a realpolitik inquiry, but absolute emotional impulse. Good and evil? Jesus.

 

Funny you bring it up though because I was considering trolling Brisket with an Bismark reference but thought better of it.

[jimmyjazz 45055]

22 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You believe the average Palestinian is evil? What is the basis for that

[jimmyjazz 45055]

11 minutes ago, RollingPresidential said:

I don't begrudge people their political beliefs, as much as I might disagree with them. It's how you act them out that matters. Everyone frothing at the mouth for the blood of the Turk over there is just appalling, and Scipio plopping in with a "WATCH" and a quote of Ben Shapiro ("Arabs swim in sewage") was disappointing. Lot of Dad-history buffs there living out their civilizational conflicts in an age of comfort. 

Did Scipio not thoroughly pants himself enough for you over the past few years?  The guy rode an unjustified wave (save his ability to turn a phrase) for a long time.  He's a dick, and not very logical.

[sidis 9608]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

The issue is they don't pose a realpolitik inquiry, but absolute emotional impulse. Good and evil? Jesus.

 

Funny you bring it up though because I was considering trolling Brisket with an Bismark reference but thought better of it.

of course it does.  maybe brisket's hyper-emotional and dramatic language characterizing a revelations like battle for the soul of humankind confuses it, sure...but there remains a legitimate inquiry.

you've been ruthlessly attacked by an aggressor.  that aggressor strategically retreats behind civilians.  you hold categorically that above all things, no civilians can be harmed.  

you're then faced with the inquiry...accept the violence perpetrated and say sorry as chainsaw has suggested or respond in-kind with violence knowing civilians will be inevitably harmed as brisket suggests?

[SydneyCarton 47092]

7 minutes ago, G650 said:

The issue is they don't pose a realpolitik inquiry, but absolute emotional impulse. Good and evil? Jesus.

 

Funny you bring it up though because I was considering trolling Brisket with an Bismark reference but thought better of it.

It is a realpokitik issue. And do you not believe using humans as shields to commit unthinkable crimes isnt evil? Is every Palestinian evil? No. Is there great evil taking place here? Fuck yes there is great evil taking place here. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

the requirements are the same as ever. you have to win a war. 

Well fuck. Basques are tough sumbitches.

[G650 13063]

Just now, sidis said:

of course it does.  maybe brisket's hyper-emotional and dramatic language characterizing a revelations like battle for the soul of humankind confuses it, sure...but there remains a legitimate inquiry.

you've been ruthlessly attacked by an aggressor.  that aggressor strategically retreats behind civilians.  you hold categorically that above all things, no civilians can be harmed.  

you're then faced with the inquiry...accept the violence perpetrated and say sorry as chainsaw has suggested or respond in-kind with violence knowing civilians will be inevitably harmed as brisket suggests?

You are just doing what Brisket is in this post. These aren't the only two options. To engage in Realpolitik will take a lot more than this into account and choose a complex nuanced path of many actions.

 

In my opinion there have not been any true examples of realpolitik since the 19th century anyway, Kissinger and a few Soviets are the only one's who have even played footsie with realpolitik since.

[jimmyjazz 45055]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

Not invading your neighbor and killing 1,000+ civilians and kidnapping their women and children would have been a good choice to avoid it.  Now it’s going to happen, though. 

Well, it happened.  I desperately hope Israel doesn't return that particular favor.

[TexArcher 36902]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

I'll blow right through that stop sign. Just as the death of a civilian human shield is on the combatant who used them as a shield, the deaths of the enslavers' children are on the enslavers. I'd prefer if they didn't, but I don't find it morally wrong in any way that they did. Hell, an objective analysis would find that those children would have been almost certain to use the legal system at the time to subjugate the slaves' children so even with the benefit of a cool head it's hard to say it's wrong.

Putting aside the questionable premise that it's morally okay to kill the children of your enslavers, I would hope we all understand that the average Israeli civilian family is not the enslaver of Gaza anyway.

And, this sounds dangerously close to the argument that America deserved 9/11 because of American foreign policy.  And that is one bad fucking argument.

[Brisketexan 103139]

You believe the average Palestinian is evil? What is the basis for that

Inherently evil? Of course not. Steeped in it, indoctrinated in it, and taught that Jews are vermin to be exterminated from damn near infancy, with no real counter-programming? Yes. That’s a problem. How do you de-program millions and millions who have been taught unambiguously and relentlessly that Jews must die?
You don’t. It’s not feasible.

The issue is they don't pose a realpolitik inquiry, but absolute emotional impulse. Good and evil? Jesus.
 
Funny you bring it up though because I was considering trolling Brisket with an Bismark reference but thought better of it.

See the responses below. You again waltz past the absolute practical challenge here. Because it’s inconvenient for the fantasy world you want to construct.

of course it does.  maybe brisket's hyper-emotional and dramatic language characterizing a revelations like battle for the soul of humankind confuses it, sure...but there remains a legitimate inquiry.
you've been ruthlessly attacked by an aggressor.  that aggressor strategically retreats behind civilians.  you hold categorically that above all things, no civilians can be harmed.  
you're then faced with the inquiry...accept the violence perpetrated and say sorry as chainsaw has suggested or respond in-kind with violence knowing civilians will be inevitably harmed as brisket suggests?

It is a realpokitik issue. And do you not believe using humans as shields to commit unthinkable crimes isnt evil? Is every Palestinian evil? No. Is there great evil taking place here? Fuck yes there is great evil taking place here. 

Hamas has committed an act of genocide. It was acting consistent with its stated goals. Hamas is supported by the majority of the people in Gaza. And now, to avoid paying the price for its crime of genocide, it is committing another clearly defined war crime and using civilians as shields.
What is happening on the Gaza side is fucking evil. Why is it so hard to say that?

[Doc Sam Beckett 5695]

21 minutes ago, sidis said:

tldr: i love hot mediterranean and south american women and everyone else should leave them and me alone.

I mean, this is pretty much perfect 

[cactusflinthead 26790]

 

[sidis 9608]

Just now, G650 said:

You are just doing what Brisket is in this post. These aren't the only two options. To engage in Realpolitik will take a lot more than this into account and choose a complex nuanced path of many actions.

 

In my opinion there have not been any true examples of realpolitik since the 19th century anyway, Kissinger and a few Soviets are the only one's who have even played footsie with realpolitik since.

you do make a fair point that there are an infinite number of alternative realpolitik paths that...frankly, would end much better than the current path.  the u.s., the e.u., and the gulf states could impose some good alternatives.  but it would be necessary to engage at a rational and practical level for those and that's simply not realistic in the short-term unfortunately given the impassioned moral and ideological states of the belligerents.

unfortunately, those are the choices once a direct response is executed.  in any alternative you propose that isn't simply idealistic, there is certainly suffering.

[jimmyjazz 45055]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Hamas has committed an act of genocide. It was acting consistent with its stated goals. Hamas is supported by the majority of the people in Gaza.

Really?  You know this to be true?

You come across as someone who doesn't know dozens if not hundreds of Palestinians and other Arabs, and I know that's not true.  

Edited October 11, 2023 by jimmyjazz

[wildcat09 28387]

We know Hamas uses people as human shields, but some of y'all have what I think is an incorrect assumption that Israel's strikes are all targeted at Hamas targets. Their intelligence wasn't good enough to stop the initial attacks and things have been pure chaos ever since. I don't see any reason to think they have a good idea where Hamas militants currently are. They're reducing whole neighborhoods to rubble and they've bombed the crossing into Egypt, where tons of Palestinian civilians had fled to hoping to get out. 

There's no way to completely avoid civilian casualties in war and I wouldn't expect Israel to do so, but I think it's reasonable to expect them to not commit war crimes. All that's asking them to do is adhere to their own training. 

[jimmyjazz 45055]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

I hope they don’t commit war crimes, either, but winning a war and having collateral damage isn’t in and of itself a war crime. 

No argument whatsoever.  War sucks.  Sometimes it is imposed.  When that happens, there are two choices:  fight back, or play possum and get run over.  I'm simply saying that it's possible to avoid the intentional brutality of targeting civilians yet still fight back.

[Neonmoon 38126]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Propping up Hamas bc the tension is good for business and political power for Likud is pretty bad. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

I did not see any reports of the Likud party raping women and beheading civilians in your link. 

Again, I don't agree with anything they've done, but comparing the Likud party with Hamas is a false equivalency. 

[Asithappens 974]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We know Hamas uses people as human shields, but some of y'all have what I think is an incorrect assumption that Israel's strikes are all targeted at Hamas targets. Their intelligence wasn't good enough to stop the initial attacks and things have been pure chaos ever since. I don't see any reason to think they have a good idea where Hamas militants currently are. They're reducing whole neighborhoods to rubble and they've bombed the crossing into Egypt, where tons of Palestinian civilians had fled to hoping to get out. 

There's no way to completely avoid civilian casualties in war and I wouldn't expect Israel to do so, but I think it's reasonable to expect them to not commit war crimes. All that's asking them to do is adhere to their own training. 

 What?

So because Israel doesn't have perfect or infallible intel they should what? Stop all bombings? 

Bullshit.

[hobbes2702 12481]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Inherently evil? Of course not. Steeped in it, indoctrinated in it, and taught that Jews are vermin to be exterminated from damn near infancy, with no real counter-programming? Yes. That’s a problem. How do you de-program millions and millions who have been taught unambiguously and relentlessly that Jews must die?
You don’t. It’s not feasible.

See the responses below. You again waltz past the absolute practical challenge here. Because it’s inconvenient for the fantasy world you want to construct.


Hamas has committed an act of genocide. It was acting consistent with its stated goals. Hamas is supported by the majority of the people in Gaza. And now, to avoid paying the price for its crime of genocide, it is committing another clearly defined war crime and using civilians as shields.
What is happening on the Gaza side is fucking evil. Why is it so hard to say that?

Who isn’t saying Hamas is evil? Who isn’t saying they’ve committed heinous atrocities? Everyone agrees. 

[jimmyjazz 45055]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

 What?

So because Israel doesn't have perfect or infallible intel they should what? Stop all bombings? 

Bullshit.

How did you come away with that interpretation of his post?

[hobbes2702 12481]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We know Hamas uses people as human shields, but some of y'all have what I think is an incorrect assumption that Israel's strikes are all targeted at Hamas targets. Their intelligence wasn't good enough to stop the initial attacks and things have been pure chaos ever since. I don't see any reason to think they have a good idea where Hamas militants currently are. They're reducing whole neighborhoods to rubble and they've bombed the crossing into Egypt, where tons of Palestinian civilians had fled to hoping to get out. 

There's no way to completely avoid civilian casualties in war and I wouldn't expect Israel to do so, but I think it's reasonable to expect them to not commit war crimes. All that's asking them to do is adhere to their own training.