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Posted
14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

If someone is to be detained on grounds other than flight risk, they need to be a drooling, incorrigible violent criminal

How about repeatedly inciting violence against court officers?

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/27/this-is-in-purpose-experts-alarmed-after-filing-reveals-shocking-extent-of-inspired/

Quote

Last month, the former president posted an image of Greenfield on his social media platform Truth Social falsely describing her as Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer's "girlfriend" and linking to her personal Instagram account. The act prompted Engoron to issue a partial gag order barring Trump — and later his legal team — from commenting on court staff.

A New York appeals court earlier this month, however, paused the gag order, allowing Trump to speak freely about court staff while a longer appeals process takes place. 

Greenfield's personal contact information has since been compromised, a court safety official, Charles Hollon, told The Guardian. 

“I have been informed by Ms. Greenfield that she has been receiving approximately 20-30 calls per day to her personal cellphone and approximately 30-50 messages per day online,” Hollon said. “Ms Greenfield also informed me that since the interim stay was issued lifting the gag orders on November 16, 2023, approximately half of the harassing and disparaging messages have been antisemitic.”

He fucking knows what he's doing. The legal system is letting an arsonist run around handing out matchbooks under the guise of free speech. 

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Posted
22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

How about repeatedly inciting violence against court officers?

https://www.salon.com/2023/11/27/this-is-in-purpose-experts-alarmed-after-filing-reveals-shocking-extent-of-inspired/

He fucking knows what he's doing. The legal system is letting an arsonist run around handing out matchbooks under the guise of free speech. 

The legal system probably ought to, as far as detention goes.  Gag orders are another matter.

Our pretrial detention/bail system is rudderless right now for the most part, but it's probably operating for Trump how it ought to operate for everyone.

Pretrial detention should be the exception, rather than the rule, for definable flight risks and seriously mentally ill or otherwise incorrigibly violent.

But once you skip bail, or do a real crime while on bail, that's it.

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Posted
12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

SIAP, but @TwiceHorn you might find this interesting - apparently it flew under the radar last week.

 

Yeah, I saw something about that.  A temporary victory, for now, as it's just stayed pending appeal.

That legislation is under assault from numerous quarters, including the governor and some legislators, so I don't think it's going to have any impact on Willis or anyone else for quite some time.

Posted
On 11/26/2023 at 5:16 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Well, he obviously doesn't have the same kind of pre-trial restrictions as an ordinary Joe.

Largely because he doesn't pose a flight risk.

And if he flees, who gives a fuck?  That might be the best possible outcome.  If he doesn't get extradited back, yay.  If he does, he goes directly to jail, yay.

That's bullshit. Every single criminal fleeing the country serves the purpose of getting them out of our society. But it isn't allowed because it allows them to escape punishment. We should all give a fuck if this piece of shit escapes punishment. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

That's bullshit. Every single criminal fleeing the country serves the purpose of getting them out of our society. But it isn't allowed because it allows them to escape punishment. We should all give a fuck if this piece of shit escapes punishment. 

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted
3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for that purpose than punishment.

Personally, I'm a big believer in rehabilitative justice. But with Trump, well, we know that ain't happening.

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Posted
7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Personally, I'm a big believer in rehabilitative justice. But with Trump, well, we know that ain't happening.

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

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Posted
1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Given that important change happens at a given time, and given that time is ongoing, I do not share your opinion.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.

But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.

We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

I used to be anti capital punishment, until Trump showed what pardon powers really are... the war criminals he freed are beyond the pale, the system is broken and no amount of leniency and sympathy is going to fix this adversarial nightmare.

 

As for Don he is a flight risk but to Moscow. Any other country (including Argentina) would be severely preassured to either extradite him or gag him, his ego would never accept a real gag (not this court pussyfooting around gags) but one enforec by the barrel of a gun.

Moscow is the only exception he can yap freely without fear of extradition,so that is why I think he is headed there.

Edited by linux
Posted

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

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Posted
3 hours ago, locodos said:

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

According to a professor of mine, often this banishment was applied to persons getting too popular and holding too much sway with the people. Such a person could become a demagogue and lead the people to bad ends. 

According to the same professor (Gareth Morgan? RIP), such a banishment could be source of pride. These men were rich and could live in a nearby city-state. They weren't propelled into the desert or College Station.

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Posted
3 hours ago, locodos said:

Man the ancient Greeks really had it going on.   We need to bring back the ostracism.

"In ancient Athens, ostracism was the process by which any citizen, including political leaders, could be expelled from the city-state for 10 years. Once a year, ancient Athenian citizens would nominate people they felt threatened democracy—because of political differences, dishonesty, or just general dislike."

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

Posted
6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

I abhor the US prison system and the way so much of the public embraces the notion that long sentences spent as a victim to the strong is justice. Our prison system and vengence lust is among the most shameful things about the US in my opinion.

I think I part ways with you on punishment/imprisonment being the only "rational" if used to deter crime. You seem to further assert that a person shouldn't be imprisoned if we can be certain deterrence won't work. I doubt that's what you mean to assert, but that's the way the language reads to me.

I do believe that punishment by humane incarceration is a good policy. One abuses one's liberty if it's used to commit offenses against other citizens. The cost should be paid in forfeit liberty. I think our society functions better knowing that there are consequences for crimes. If the convicted commit another crime after release, then they pay by forfeiting more liberty.

Abstracty, I'm fine with capital punishment for heinous crimes. I oppose capital punishment in this country because it's applied unjustly and too many mistakes are made.

I saw Donald Trump commit high crimes. I'd be fine with hanging him for them. That won't happen. I want him in a cell providing a much needed example of blind justice. If he jets off to Argentina or Saudi Arabia, I want him brought back in chains for the same reason.

I'm fine with the idea of punishment. I despise our system for its cruel inhumanity.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

They developed putting people on ignore before the internet.

Impressive.

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Posted
40 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I hear the Mennonites still shun people.  Maybe the Amish, too.  

The Amish do. The Mennonites don’t. None that I’ve ever heard of, anyway. If any do then they’d be in the most extremely conservative congregations bordering on the Amish end of the Anabaptist spectrum. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

You can't deter a narcissist. Their brains don't accept anything that goes against their worldview. That doesn't mean we should just let them get away with fucking everything and ACTIVELY INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE COURT SYSTEM ATTEMPTING TO CONCLUSIVELY ADJUDICATE HIS STATUS AS A LIAR AND FRAUD!

I gotta say though, your heel turn to "we shouldn't punish fascists" is tipping your former republican cred just a liiiiitle too much. You wouldn't happen to be related to Neville Chamberlain would you?

Edited by Captainant
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Posted
I'm happy with criminals fleeing the country, you should be too.  It's really a fantastic solution for Trump.
But if they only flee across town or to the next state, that's a problem.
We have this fucking obsession with punishment in this country.  Incapacitation works better for the purpose of removing them from society and minimizing their effect than punishment.  And fleeing the country is a hell of an incapacitation.

Exiled leaders who flee sometimes return and create more chaos/death.
History is filled with numerous lessons on this.
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Posted
10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, I'd like to see Trump suffer consequences, but to me that actually means something different than being punished. It means being conclusively adjudged to be a crook in a fair, fact-based forum.

My sense of schadenfreude would like to see him rot in prison for a while, but that's not the best part of me.

And, I submit that we as a country have a bizarre obsession with people being punished and the only rational support for it (besides just vengeance, if you call that rational) is deterrence and it's a nearly undeniable fact that punishment doesn't deter the vast majority of criminals.  Punishment wouldn't deter Trump either, if he lived past it.

Agree with your overall point, disagree on some individual points.  Incarceration absolutely deters criminals, but only while they’re incarcerated.  For certain criminals, there’s definite societal benefit to that beyond vengeance or the feeble hope of that incarceration works for rehabilitation.  Theres also an argument that seeing criminals get incarcerated might deter would-be criminals from committing crimes (that is debatable).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Captainant said:

You can't deter a narcissist. Their brains don't accept anything that goes against their worldview. That doesn't mean we should just let them get away with fucking everything and ACTIVELY INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE COURT SYSTEM ATTEMPTING TO CONCLUSIVELY ADJUDICATE HIS STATUS AS A LIAR AND FRAUD!

I gotta say though, your heel turn to "we shouldn't punish fascists" is tipping your former republican cred just a liiiiitle too much. You wouldn't happen to be related to Neville Chamberlain would you?

What it is is not advocating against punishing fascists. I have never said anything like that. 

It's not indulging the flaws in our justice system against anyone especially when it's just convenient. 

To me, trump ought not be detained pretrial just like anyone who is not a real flight risk or hideously violent ought not be detailned. 

You, on the other hand, bitch about how the justice system is flawed but all of those flaws are perfectly OK as long as it's trump or some other fascist. 

Edited by TwiceHorn
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Agree with your overall point, disagree on some individual points.  Incarceration absolutely deters criminals, but only while they’re incarcerated.  For certain criminals, there’s definite societal benefit to that beyond vengeance or the feeble hope of that incarceration works for rehabilitation.  Theres also an argument that seeing criminals get incarcerated might deter would-be criminals from committing crimes (that is debatable).

Deterrence during incarceration is known as incapacitation as I use it. 

 

I use the "four pillars of sentencing," retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation, and incapacitation. 

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

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Posted
1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

I first read that as "omelette" and thought "ew, gross".

Posted
15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

Our pretrial detention/bail system is rudderless right now for the most part, but it's probably operating for Trump how it ought to operate for everyone.

 

 

This is the point. A system that works the way its supposed to for only the rich and white. Maybe when someone like DoTArd and his little gang of insurrectionists are treated the same way nonviolent drug offenders are treated, the system will be fixed. 

 

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Posted
12 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm generally against our carceral system and the death penalty generally. But fuck all that, I absolutely want Trump to be drawn and quartered after we've thrown his ass in an oubliette for a month that we've filled up with the worst smelling shit imaginable.  

If an oubliette is so horrible, how awful must a full sized oubli be?

You left out hung.  It's hung, drawn, and quartered, just like in Braveheart.  Sometimes the victim was hung until unconscious two or three times before being moved to the rack.

Posted
6 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

You left out hung.  It's hung, drawn, and quartered, just like in Braveheart.  Sometimes the victim was hung until unconscious two or three times before being moved to the rack.

hanged.

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Posted
8 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

If an oubliette is so horrible, how awful must a full sized oubli be?

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

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Posted
24 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

Had to look it up. At first I thought we were talking about one of those cages that they put Madmartigan in. 

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Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

That's funny, but oubliette is a well chosen word. It's not a diminutive of "oubli," but the noun form of the verb "oublier." Oubliette literally means "place of forgetting."

I know.  It's from a word game I used to hit my kids with to get them to look up the definitions of words.

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Posted
20 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

Sometimes the victim was hung until unconscious two or three times before being moved to the rack.

That makes more sense to me than hanging a corpse, which wasn’t unheard of back in the day. Flaying and disemboweling never satisfy by themselves, they require a hanging chaser.

Posted
18 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Did he get cash or write a money order?  Why not flag and decline the wire transfers?

At the FI I work at our money orders go up to $1,000 so we'd be looking at 40,000 money orders. He's the perfect demographic for wanting 40,000 money orders and holding up the line as he complains loudly to anyone that will listen that you can't trust the water company with a check and refuses to get online banking.

Posted
2 hours ago, Red Five said:

He'll get a firm talking-to that will straighten him out.

And it will be delivered by.....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Susan Collins.

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