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Active shooter thread


Hugo Stiglitz

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27 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Jesus.
 

 

The scariest thing about these guys is they are so entrenched in the ideology and they are self-radicalized.  These aren’t your klansmen or skinheads from the 70s that run with a crew and have some small sense of fellowship or community to keep some sliver of their humanity in tact. 

These new killers are more Timothy McVeigh types that will go to the gas chamber with pride wanting to do it all over again.  Sick sick motherfuckers.

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14 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I am outraged and want new legislation. I don't own a gun and am fine with gun control. I am voting against this President in 2020 so shit can calm down. I would rather have the Dems win to calm shit down. Ending illegal immigration and limiting and changing legal immigration standards should be on the table and discussed in 2024. It won't because you'll be called a racist if you do. Tucker is not afraid to have that discussion. I hope he runs in 2024 after shit cools down. Enough with the flamethrowers

Bullshit. The El Paso shooter did literally what you’ve said you want to do. You’re among the absolute worst humanity has to offer. Own it, you vile coward.

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11 hours ago, Celery Man said:

 

I just imagine this guy running to his machine gun nest, spraying bullets all over the place while his children run, screaming, near his field of fire with hot brass flying and ricochets rebounding off rocks, yelling about the libs.  

Sounds like madeup bullshit to me...so his yard is constantly full of rotting pig carcasses?  Maybe build a strong fence that encloses the play area?  If I lived somewhere that had feral hogs running out every time my kids stepped foot outside, I would take a different approach.  

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Edited by Homercles
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5 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

The scariest thing about these guys is they are so entrenched in the ideology and they are self-radicalized.

They're not self-radicalized.  The support and encouragement they get from 8chan and the like are a big part of what allows them to move on from fantasy to reality.  KXAN did a story on work done by The Violence Project where they are attempting to find common threads between perpetrators of 163 mass shootings (4 or more fatalities) since the UT Tower shooting.  The 4 key points they have identified are:

 

* troubled or traumatic childhood

* crisis point where living is no longer a desirable option

* validation of the consequences they are contemplating

* accessibility -- people, places and guns

 

The Violence Project on KXAN

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42 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

They're not self-radicalized.  The support and encouragement they get from 8chan and the like are a big part of what allows them to move on from fantasy to reality.  KXAN did a story on work done by The Violence Project where they are attempting to find common threads between perpetrators of 163 mass shootings (4 or more fatalities) since the UT Tower shooting.  The 4 key points they have identified are:

 

* troubled or traumatic childhood

* crisis point where living is no longer a desirable option

* validation of the consequences they are contemplating

* accessibility -- people, places and guns

 

The Violence Project on KXAN

 

The LA Times piece on this was also linked on the other thread. It is worth a read. The role of social media is a central component to understanding shootings like El Paso and Christchurch.  The depraved online troll culture intersects with tech manipulation algorithms driving a dehumanizing extremist feedback loop while simultaneously socially isolating individuals with a broken predisposition. Acknowledging this specific aspect of the problem does not in any way take away from the broader influence of dangerous political rhetoric. But when you have three racist terrorist attacks running through the same site, as well as others from other sites, its something that needs to be discussed. Here is an article from March, exploring the topic a bit after Christchurch. If we are going to ask some questions about the role of the second amendment in this debate, maybe it's also time we asking some questions about the role of the first?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/technology/facebook-youtube-christchurch-shooting.html#

And the manifesto — a wordy mixture of white nationalist boilerplate, fascist declarations and references to obscure internet jokes — seems to have been written from the bottom of an algorithmic rabbit hole.

It would be unfair to blame the internet for this. Motives are complex, lives are complicated, and we don’t yet know all the details about the shooting. Anti-Muslim violence is not an online phenomenon, and white nationalist hatred long predates 4Chan and Reddit.

But we do know that the design of internet platforms can create and reinforce extremist beliefs. Their recommendation algorithms often steer users toward edgier content, a loop that results in more time spent on the app, and more advertising revenue for the company. Their hate speech policies are weakly enforced. And their practices for removing graphic videos — like the ones that circulated on social media for hours after the Christchurch shooting, despite the companies’ attempts to remove them — are inconsistent at best.

We also know that many recent acts of offline violence bear the internet’s imprint. Robert Bowers, the man charged with killing 11 people and wounding six others at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, was a frequent user of Gab, a social media platform beloved by extremists. Cesar Sayoc, the man charged with sending explosives to prominent critics of President Trump last year, was immersed in a cesspool of right-wing Facebook and Twitter memes.

People used to conceive of “online extremism” as distinct from the extremism that took form in the physical world. If anything, the racism and bigotry on internet message boards felt a little less dangerous than the prospect of Ku Klux Klan marches or skinhead rallies.

Now, online extremism is just regular extremism on steroids. There is no offline equivalent of the experience of being algorithmically nudged toward a more strident version of your existing beliefs, or having an invisible hand steer you from gaming videos to neo-Nazism. The internet is now the place where the seeds of extremism are planted and watered, where platform incentives guide creators toward the ideological poles, and where people with hateful and violent beliefs can find and feed off one another.

So the pattern continues. People become fluent in the culture of online extremism, they make and consume edgy memes, they cluster and harden. And once in a while, one of them erupts.

Edited by Anastasis
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Are we talking about gun control here? I'll go ahead and try to make a reasonable post, even though I should know better. 

I've owned an AR15 for 7 or 8 years, but I truly don't see the need for them to be available to citizens. Outlaw them, create a buy back program for them, and I'll bring mine in without hesitation. 

I do get why some are scared of the slippery slope when it comes to banning guns. If that led to other gun bans, specifically ones that have legit use for home defense and hunting, I'd be pissed. It's happened in other places and it's reasonable to think it could happen here. 

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

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Seems weird 19 year olds can't buy Juul products anymore, but they can buy 100-round magazines.  I'm still a proponent of the 2nd Amendment, but the Constitution is awkwardly silent on the liberties related to e-cigarettes . 

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Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

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10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You see, the only answer to this terrorism is a fascist military police state with armed guards everywhere.   We have no choice. 

 

"if they (retired police officers) donate 15 hours a week to their local school,  lets make it that they pay no income taxes, state, federal at all, as a thank you for donating their time - and it won't cost us a penny.

Image result for torbush

A lot to unpack there.

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3 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

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14 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

Think we get anything close to this from our idiot President about all the white terrorism?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

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7 minutes ago, Js1 said:

At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

269?  Come on.  That's the low end at best.

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59 minutes ago, housious said:

Are we talking about gun control here? I'll go ahead and try to make a reasonable post, even though I should know better. 

I've owned an AR15 for 7 or 8 years, but I truly don't see the need for them to be available to citizens. Outlaw them, create a buy back program for them, and I'll bring mine in without hesitation. 

I do get why some are scared of the slippery slope when it comes to banning guns. If that led to other gun bans, specifically ones that have legit use for home defense and hunting, I'd be pissed. It's happened in other places and it's reasonable to think it could happen here. 

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

I agree with this sentiment which I think is a nice "Why not both?":

We can have responsible, common sense gun reform (ban AR-15's, bump rounds, etc.) and responsible, common sense gun ownership (rifles, shotguns and weak pistols (.380 or 9mms).

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9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Anti-gun. You’re damn right.

While y’all are getting rid of Gohmert get rid of this cockknuckle too.
 

I'm always amused by the notion that God has been kicked out of schools. The Almighty grabbed by the scruff of his omnipotent neck to have is ubiquitous ass kicked out of the doorway of a school. The World-destroyer pathetically rubs his ass and fights back tears as he lies on the sidewalk.

I'm not amused thinking of the number of indoctrinated meatheads nodding as Patrick speaks.

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12 minutes ago, Js1 said:

At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

Declare a national emergency. The precedent has been set. 

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I had heard it was under a minute, but CNN says the Dayton shooter was killed less than 30 seconds after he fired his first shot.   That much damage from one person with a gun in 30 seconds

They're also reporting that he had a lot of writings at home showing he was obsessed with killing people, but no connection with anything political.

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I’d be interested in hearing how enforcement of this emergency executive action would work, whether it’s mag limits or “assault style” bans or other. 

I know how manufacturers would have to respond, but people that have items just declared illegal won’t be lining up to turn them in at the police precincts. 

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2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I had heard it was under a minute, but CNN says the Dayton shooter was killed less than 30 seconds after he fired his first shot.   That much damage from one person with a gun in 30 seconds

They're also reporting that he had a lot of writings at home showing he was obsessed with killing people, but no connection with anything political.

 

There was a blurb on some low-level bizarro "news" site yesterday that suggested he flipped because his sister was dating a black guy.  I have no idea if that is grounded in even a shred of truth.  I looked for more reputable sources and found nothing, which is a pretty big clue (and why I never posted anything about it). 

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2 hours ago, housious said:

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

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I have to question the logic behind "weapon X would do the same damn thing".  There has to be a reason that, far more often than not, these shooters use an AR-15 or similar.  It's obviously the preferred weapon.  It stands to reason that there is at least the presumption that other weapons would not be as effective.

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6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

I don't think there is any question that it would reduce the number of deaths.  One instance where a shooter only has access to semi auto weapons vs auto weapons would undoubtedly result in fewer casualties.  And if that meant one of my loved ones lived vs died, well, it was worth it.

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7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

Seat belts didn’t stop all automobile deaths.

They sure as hell helped reduce them.

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2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Seems weird 19 year olds can't buy Juul products anymore, but they can buy 100-round magazines.  I'm still a proponent of the 2nd Amendment, but the Constitution is awkwardly silent on the liberties related to e-cigarettes . 

Which reading?  The James Madison version from 1789 or the late '80s version brought to you by the NRA?  You know, the one that the uber liberal Justice Burger called "a fraud on the American public"

It still amazes me that the right wing nut jobs think the 2nd Amendment starts and ends with this phrase...

Quote

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

While the intelligent/sane people recognize that there is a previous clause stating the reasoning behind the second part...

Quote

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

 

Is it me, or do none of these mass shooters seem like members of a "well regulated Militia"?

Here's a good, short, version from a few years ago that goes into how it happened.

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So far this morning, I've seen several new red herrings.

America is turning anti-gun. Guns are popular, so we can't legislate against them. Guns are a major investment tool for some people, so you can't mess with that.

We love to twist ourselves in knots to justify certain things.

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Saw a trauma surgeon interviewed yesterday describing the damage done by the rounds fired in El Paso. Totally devastating for internal organs. I haven't seen what specific round he used.

Here's what he wanted to use:

Quote

In a four-page screed suspected to have been released by the El Paso gunman, the author lamented that his WASR 10 rifle, an AK-47 variant, couldn’t match the lethality of an AR-15. So, to boost his weapon’s killing capacity, he sought out 8M3 ammunition, a hollow-point rifle round known for its ability to expand and fragment on impact, creating catastrophic wounds. The gunman described the 8M3 as a “bullet unlike any other.”

Police are yet to address whether or not the gunman successfully acquired and used 8M3 ammunition in the August 3 shooting that left 20 people dead and 26 injured. But if the shooter did, it could have had grave consequences for victims, making the work of emergency responders and trauma surgeons more difficult. And the fact that the 8M3 is available at all to American civilians stems from the deep-seated fervor among both some sellers and gun owners for ever-more lethal technology. 

https://www.thetrace.org/2019/08/el-paso-mass-shooting-8m3-ammunition/

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34 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

 

I have to question the logic behind "weapon X would do the same damn thing". 

 

That’s fair, as I know you’ve stated before that you aren’t very familiar with guns.  A 12 gauge semi auto gun firing 00 buckshot would be as lethal in many of the mass shootings we’ve witnessed over the last few years, LV being the obvious exception.  

A 3” 12ga 00 buckshot Shell contains between 8 and 16 .33 caliber pellets.  Average rounds are 1100-1600 fps.   So just using dumb math we can say 12 pellets at 1300 fps, very similar to a 3” 1-1/8oz off the shelf load.  

Just your off the shelf dove gun (Berreta A400) can hold 5 rounds with the plug out.  

The dipshit in Ohio fired 41 projectiles iirc, in 30 seconds.  The shotgun mentioned above can fire 60 projectiles in 3 seconds. And I’m not joking about the 3 seconds, I’ll find a movie clip after this post (on phone). Obviously each projectile isn’t hitting 1 person/per, however with the right distance, proper choke, and proper crowd density, it would be fucking devastating.  

That was an off the shelf gun that is used for dove hunting 99.9999999% of the time.

Now let’s examine a purpose made shotgun such as the DP-12, which holds 16 shells. 16*12= 192.   192 .33 caliber projectiles (43% diameter increase over 5.56/.223, albeit a reduced fps) in seconds.   The AR bullet is superior in causing damage, for sure.

My guess is that the AR is popular because 1)entry level is affordable 2) it’s military like, machismo feeling bullshit 3) the recoil is nothing (I’m assuming these mass killers are generally pussies) 4) they may not even know any better - most are young and probably only know about guns what they’ve read about (obv not with LV guy). 5) it does a really good job at killing things. 

The post I quoted said take away (buy back) all AR’s and I responded that would be fine with me.  Or limit the high capacity mags, I don’t care about those either. My point was that you can make rather benign “hunting” (A-400) guns just as if not more deadly in the right situations. And these are planned attacks (mostly), so I’m sure someone could plan the right way to make it just as deadly. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

Yeah. There would have to be some limits on accessories to shotguns, meaning you probably shouldn't be carrying around a Saiga with a massive drum mag. 

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12 minutes ago, housious said:

Yeah. There would have to be some limits on accessories to shotguns, meaning you probably shouldn't be carrying around a Saiga with a massive drum mag. 

Of course. I figured you meant any typical field/sporting gun. Not even home defense, which is where the lines start to blur imo. 

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  • Pancho changed the title to Active shooter thread


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